Author Topic: I cannot understand group associations, please help  (Read 1348 times)

Offline TommyE

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I cannot understand group associations, please help
« on: November 10, 2018, 05:27:32 pm »
Hello

I have two dimmers that I want to act as one, is this possible?

I have tried in UI7 to create a group (2) on one dimmer, then associated the other dimmer to that group by selecting the other dimmer from the list that Vera shows.

There does not seems to be any relationship between the two dimmer by doing this.

Possible?

Regards
Tommy

Offline zedrally

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2018, 08:45:25 pm »
Only if the dimmers support Group Association.
You need to post more information about type and nodel.
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.

Offline TommyE

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 03:41:22 pm »
OK, I?m trying to get these two to work together.

qees shell dimmer, the only document I have found is this
https://doc.eedomus.com/files/qees_reto_shell_online_manual_v04.pdf

and an aetoc Micro Smart Dimmer G2 manual is here.
https://www.tronika.no/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=68

I do not know how to interpret this, so if anyone would like to elaborate, I?ll be superhappy :)


Regards
Tommy

Offline Cristina

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 04:24:44 am »
Hello Tommy,

Please note that we have created a trouble ticket for you. As soon as you have time, please reply.

Thank you and Have a nice day

Offline AndersMalm

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 06:05:15 pm »
I cant understand why they choose to implement it like they did (Z-Wave alliance not Vera). I even wrote a blog about it :P

https://andersmalmgren.com/2018/10/20/z-wave-a-system-architects-view/

Offline kwieto

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2018, 10:22:51 am »
I cant understand why they choose to implement it like they did (Z-Wave alliance not Vera). I even wrote a blog about it :P

https://andersmalmgren.com/2018/10/20/z-wave-a-system-architects-view/

Lot of false assumptions and information on that post and it is plain obvious that you just scratched the surface of the topic, going into premature conclusion based on the implementation from one manufacturer only.

First: it is common knowledge that Fibaro uses their own variation of Z-wave protocol, which work for their devices, but not necessarily is compatible with others. Using Fibaro as a sample is not very wise idea. Probably this is why you get to the other false opinion, wchich is:
Second: no, it is not true that you have to use the same manufacturer of the devices to make them work together, regardless if through direct associations or via central controller In the second case you may look through the list of supported devices for any controller on the market to see that such assumption is false. For the first case I don't think that it is true even for Fibaro. As I have couple of dimmers direct associated with Z-wave switches. Which guides us to the...
Third, it is not true, that you don't have switches without relays. You have variety of products, from Keyfobs (Fibaro, Aeon, NodOn, NeoCoolcam, POPP, etc.) through 2-4 button wall switches (Aeon, POPP, NodOn, etc.) to custom designed solutions where you may define virtually any device which has defined states as a switch - Door/Window sensors, Fibaro Universal Binary Sensor (probably one of the the smallest options), you name it.
Fourth, it is not true that you can't send commands to specific channels. If your device is so called multiple endpoints device, you can define which endpoint or endpoints will be controlled via specific association.

Offline AndersMalm

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2018, 07:25:04 am »
I replied to @kwieto at my blog, so if anyone is interested read it there instead.

Offline shallowearth

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 12:44:31 pm »
Since none of that actually helps Tommy,
Tommy, some switches use Group1 and some use Group2. 

The QEES is a mystery which group they expect to use since their documentation is terrible.

I first delete both devices then re-add them (ensure all bad associations are deleted).
Then I would start with the Fibaro - I believe you have to use Group 1.  Add Group 1 to the Fibaro, then use the set buttom to point at the QEES.

Now check of the Fibaro will controll the QEES.  If that doesn't work.  Delete and re-add the Fibaro and try group 2.

Once you have that direction working then try configuring the QEES.

Again, I would try adding Group 1 first, and if that doesn't work then try Group 2.  If that still doesn't work, than the QEES may not be supporting direct association for anything other than lifeline (which won't do what you want unfortuately).


Offline kwieto

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 03:12:04 pm »
Then I would start with the Fibaro - I believe you have to use Group 1.  Add Group 1 to the Fibaro, then use the set buttom to point at the QEES.

The problem is that TommyE has Aeotec, not Fibaro as the second device. For which the documentation is also very vague - seems that the group associations are set via device parameters somehow (?)
As a general advice, it is better to not touch Group 1 associations, as it is usually so called "lifeline group" - it is designed to establish communication with a controller. setting the other device to the lifeline group may then break communication with controller and then you need to do factory reset of the device to make it work again.
To make it more unclear, as far as I know there are some devices on the market for which accociation with other devices is set via group 1.

Offline zedrally

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 05:44:17 pm »
^^^
And this is why there is so much confusion, whilst Group1 is generally Life Line Group, the Group can also Associate with other devices if the manufacturer FW is coded this way.
The last time I had difficulties I open a Support Ticket and had a solution in 24 Hours complete with a better understanding (but not complete) of Associations.
I'd sit back and wait for Support to work this out for you.



Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.

Offline AndersMalm

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2018, 04:10:15 am »
^^^
And this is why there is so much confusion, whilst Group1 is generally Life Line Group, the Group can also Associate with other devices if the manufacturer FW is coded this way.
The last time I had difficulties I open a Support Ticket and had a solution in 24 Hours complete with a better understanding (but not complete) of Associations.
I'd sit back and wait for Support to work this out for you.

Lol, the Z-Wave protocol is such a mess. Why have a Z-Wave Alliance if they cant keep the manufactures from doing things different. There are many problems involved here.
First the subpar protocol, with associations, they should instead have done something like I suggested in my blog,

Code: [Select]
{
   out: [
      {
         channel: 0,
         commands: [BinaryCommand]
      },
      {
         channel: 1,
         commands: [BinaryCommand]
      }
   ],
   in: []
}

And a switch module should never implement anything but a binary command. For example the Fibaro Single/Double Switch implement the logic of a Dimmer to be able to control it. Its a bad design that you learn about day one at Architect school.

Second, the alliance must police that the protocol implementations are smart and general. They should reject a implementation like Fibaros were a switch implement dimmer commands. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:17:59 am by AndersMalm »

Offline kwieto

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 04:31:17 am »
Hey, you may spread ignorance on your own blog (I see you removed my last comment, lol), but don't brainwash people here.
Or maybe you can say something insightful about the main topic?

Offline AndersMalm

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2018, 04:54:27 am »
Hey, you may spread ignorance on your own blog (I see you removed my last comment, lol), but don't brainwash people here.
Or maybe you can say something insightful about the main topic?

My blog is for developers and architects who understand design and can come with constructive discussion around that. You dont have any knowledge in the area plus you couldn't keep a good tone, so I had to ban you. First ban ever actually, congrats.

Offline kwieto

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 08:16:52 am »
First ban ever actually, congrats.

Yay, sweet!


---
In the real topic: it seems that Quees and Aeotec won't work together, as they both support different set of command classes (Aeotec uses "hail", while Quees uses "basic" command class).
To make two devices work together via associations they need to support the same command class.

Offline AndersMalm

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Re: I cannot understand group associations, please help
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 08:20:43 am »
In the real topic: it seems that Quees and Aeotec won't work together, as they both support different set of command classes (Aeotec uses "hail", while Quees uses "basic" command class).
To make two devices work together via associations they need to support the same command class.

This is whats so bad with the design. Both are switches, both generate and listen to Binary (boolean) commands. The entire association framework is a complete design fubar.

edit: You can use luup.variable_watch to listen to device variable changes and then forward those changes to other devices, though it will introduce some insane delays
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 08:30:49 am by AndersMalm »