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Author Topic: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration  (Read 14501 times)

Offline rafale77

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2019, 04:14:50 am »
I need to do some research on the Atom.  I read it was Z-Wave, but don?t remember Zigbee or Bluetooth.   Also not sure if Atom requires the cloud to run or can run stand alone?  I really want a system that can run regardless of the status of the internet connection.


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I asked that question specifically on the thread. They both look like cloud only to me, but...

C

No need for an iris or ST clone on the market. If that's the direction ezlo is going, it will be without many of us.
openLuup (79 devices, 141 scenes, 19 apps) master to VeraPlus (142 zwave nodes, 8 Zigbee nodes, 221 devices,  20 scenes , 2 apps) +  Hubitat (15 Zigbee nodes) + Home-Assistant (API Integrations). Bridged to Siri and Alexa. Homewave. VeraPlus ExtRooted and mios server independent.

Offline Catman

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2019, 04:18:40 am »

No need for an iris or ST clone on the market. If that's the direction ezlo is going, it will be without many of us.


Certainly that would be a trigger for me to seriously consider alternatives.  Interestingly (perhaps) I was invited to a dinner on Thursday to discuss, specifically, avoiding the pitfalls of cloud migration.  One of the statics quoted was that some *57%* of applications that have been migrated to the cloud are being wholly or partially migrated back.....

C

Offline Domoworking

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2019, 07:30:33 am »
A little bit offtopic, but..... Cloud is mainly a business model that enable company to mantain fixed income and raise earning, but is not really a beneficio for users, at least not always.

Think about some cloud only devices, like Netatmo, nest, or even Arlo: if you loose internet connection you loose almost every kind of control on The device. If they close for any reason cloud services, you get a very expensive paper holder! The same appens if they drop support for you version.
If you look around you may find old thermostat that has been lasting for 10 or 15 years doing their job.

Offline melih

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2019, 10:59:59 am »
I need to do some research on the Atom.  I read it was Z-Wave, but don?t remember Zigbee or Bluetooth.   Also not sure if Atom requires the cloud to run or can run stand alone?  I really want a system that can run regardless of the status of the internet connection.


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I asked that question specifically on the thread. They both look like cloud only to me, but...

C

No they are not cloud only....

Let me give you some insight into our development teams for our Controllers

we have 2 different Controller software....

1)our own firmware (RTOS)
2)Linux based firmware

We come from a background where 40Kilobytes is a lot in terms of code! In order to turn your light on you don't need to be running quad core ARM processor with Linux....a very simple firmware can do that. So we have been developing, last few years, our own RTOS (Real Time Operating System) specifically designed for IoT/Home Automation. Its tiny compared to other Operating systems and its darn fast! We try to do everything locally, its much cheaper to do that :)

We also have a linux based firmware that we run, for stuff like Video processing etc.....(can't tell you about all the capabilities like face recognition, object recognition, gesture recognition etc we will be launching that will have a cloud component).

Bottom line is our belief system is that we try to do it locally if its possible. If there are areas of improvement you guys identify whereby we had a brain fart and made something reliant on cloud whereas we could have made it run locally, please do tell us, we will fix it asap, or provide you our logic as to why it is cloud etc and start the discussion.

We are all aligned in terms of your needs. We want to give you what you need and want, that is our goal!

Engineering teams have started delivering and have a good cadence. Now we need to bring amazingly powerful (small, cheap but powerful...thats why its called Atom....its all about the firmware!) controllers with almost 100% integration with everything you can buy!



Offline Sender

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2019, 11:05:20 am »
controllers with almost 100% integration with everything you can buy!

Zwave is enough for a start.
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Offline melih

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2019, 11:21:47 am »
controllers with almost 100% integration with everything you can buy!

Zwave is enough for a start.

Now that engineering organisation is ready, please allow me to give you more insight.
We have an "Integration Team". This team is made up of 2 main divisions
1)Cloud Integration Team: Where they focus on integrating stuff like google home, alexa, cloud based stuff...
2)Zwave/Zigbee/Bluetooth : Where they focus on integration of any commercially available devices. They have started with Zwave team first. The other teams are building. Zwave integration is ongoing.

Offline rafale77

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2019, 11:39:45 am »
No they are not cloud only....

Glad to hear!

We come from a background where 40Kilobytes is a lot in terms of code! In order to turn your light on you don't need to be running quad core ARM processor with Linux....a very simple firmware can do that. So we have been developing, last few years, our own RTOS (Real Time Operating System) specifically designed for IoT/Home Automation. Its tiny compared to other Operating systems and its darn fast! We try to do everything locally, its much cheaper to do that :)

In itself very true but do not underestimate the load involved to handle the amount of communication from the Stack API. It turns out many controller company underestimated it. We are not turning a single light bulb on and off. It needs to handle the entire bandwidth of 2-3 different radios, manage and store all the data. It is why the most stable and successful platforms are.... a tad bit more powerful than the vera. You cannot scale your platform based on a 30 devices model and say, that's plenty.  I am appalled when see the sheer absurdity of the storage usage on the current veras for example.... Think about extendibility and future proofing...

Now that engineering organisation is ready, please allow me to give you more insight.
2)Zwave/Zigbee/Bluetooth : Where they focus on integration of any commercially available devices. They have started with Zwave team first. The other teams are building. Zwave integration is ongoing.

While this is good, please I beg you to consider focusing on integrating the home automation stacks rather than the individual devices so that your users can create the individual devices on their own. The current platform is very limited in this respect and a large number of our problems comes from the excessive and buggy automation and integration of these commercially available devices which evolve, have different firmwares etc.. The community can then supply you with the individual device integrations..Child device creation and deletion should not be automated for example. They should be at least user acknowledged. The user device database should be split between configuration and status items. status being updated and saved on a regular basis and configuration to be only modified under user control. The current platform updates and corrupts both in the same file on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 11:41:16 am by rafale77 »
openLuup (79 devices, 141 scenes, 19 apps) master to VeraPlus (142 zwave nodes, 8 Zigbee nodes, 221 devices,  20 scenes , 2 apps) +  Hubitat (15 Zigbee nodes) + Home-Assistant (API Integrations). Bridged to Siri and Alexa. Homewave. VeraPlus ExtRooted and mios server independent.

Offline Grwebster

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2019, 12:55:10 pm »
Looking to hear more about the atom.  Not sure that it has zigbe, blue tooth.  Does it have to plug into a computer that is on all the time?  Need to understand how it all comes together.


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Offline melih

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2019, 01:04:38 pm »
No they are not cloud only....

Glad to hear!

We come from a background where 40Kilobytes is a lot in terms of code! In order to turn your light on you don't need to be running quad core ARM processor with Linux....a very simple firmware can do that. So we have been developing, last few years, our own RTOS (Real Time Operating System) specifically designed for IoT/Home Automation. Its tiny compared to other Operating systems and its darn fast! We try to do everything locally, its much cheaper to do that :)

In itself very true but do not underestimate the load involved to handle the amount of communication from the Stack API. It turns out many controller company underestimated it. We are not turning a single light bulb on and off. It needs to handle the entire bandwidth of 2-3 different radios, manage and store all the data. It is why the most stable and successful platforms are.... a tad bit more powerful than the vera. You cannot scale your platform based on a 30 devices model and say, that's plenty.  I am appalled when see the sheer absurdity of the storage usage on the current veras for example.... Think about extendibility and future proofing...

Now that engineering organisation is ready, please allow me to give you more insight.
2)Zwave/Zigbee/Bluetooth : Where they focus on integration of any commercially available devices. They have started with Zwave team first. The other teams are building. Zwave integration is ongoing.

While this is good, please I beg you to consider focusing on integrating the home automation stacks rather than the individual devices so that your users can create the individual devices on their own. The current platform is very limited in this respect and a large number of our problems comes from the excessive and buggy automation and integration of these commercially available devices which evolve, have different firmwares etc.. The community can then supply you with the individual device integrations..Child device creation and deletion should not be automated for example. They should be at least user acknowledged. The user device database should be split between configuration and status items. status being updated and saved on a regular basis and configuration to be only modified under user control. The current platform updates and corrupts both in the same file on a regular basis.

Lets take Zwave stack as an example....we re-wrote it all! :) It wasn't fast enough for us. Now it is :)
We do test our creations to make sure they are the fastest before we release them...You will see the videos once product management is ready. As well as you will be able to test it yourself. Let me re-iterate, in this day and age where we are talking about gigahertz clocks for CPUs for home automation the biggest bottleneck is the firmware! Thats why we wrote it ourselves. Its all done, tested, working faster. We are just waiting on hardware to be manufactured and packaged. We will continue to improve our firmware with every release.

Offline melih

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2019, 01:06:51 pm »
Looking to hear more about the atom.  Not sure that it has zigbe, blue tooth.  Does it have to plug into a computer that is on all the time?  Need to understand how it all comes together.


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USB is for power only. It does NOT need a computer.

You can connect it to any USB power outlet...It has its own powerful computer inside! That little thing is the most powerful home automation out there! It can issue its instructions to devices faster than anyone else, and it can handle more devices in parallel! Thats why we called it Atom :) small but powerful!

Offline tbully

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2019, 01:24:02 pm »
As asked above.....will there be a way to migrate the zwave network (and other devices) from Vera to the new platform without having to start from scratch?


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Offline Sender

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2019, 01:37:08 pm »
Will configuration and logic be possible from the device itself without the need of cloud/internet like vera is currently?
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Offline intveltr

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2019, 02:15:56 pm »

You can continue using your existing hardware. You don't have to switch.

Good, but... will the new firmware also be available on the existing hardware?  The new command classes are kind of a big deal, and without support for them the old hardware would become obsolete pretty fast.  Not afraid to spend money on new hardware, but having a migration path is vital. 
HomeWave is available in the App Store!  Turn your iPhone/iPad into an easy-to-use remote control for Vera.

Offline melih

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2019, 03:00:09 pm »

You can continue using your existing hardware. You don't have to switch.

Good, but... will the new firmware also be available on the existing hardware?  The new command classes are kind of a big deal, and without support for them the old hardware would become obsolete pretty fast.  Not afraid to spend money on new hardware, but having a migration path is vital.

of course, it will be backward compatible. we re-wrote the whole zwave command classes....people were amazed how efficient, fast it was....including zwave chip manufacturer themselves...:)
As mentioned previously...backward compatibility will come after the first release of the new firmware...(ie: we will release it with the new hardware first......then tidy up few things for backward compatibility and then launch it for old hardware)...
Now for the existing hardware we will use the "Linux Firmware" we have (not RTOS as our RTOS is CPU specific)...of course new re-written command classes will be included....

Offline zedrally

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Re: Roadmap Update for New Hardware, New Firmware and Device Integration
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2019, 03:24:15 pm »
I'm not seeing anything about RF433 intergration, is this radio included in the USB sized ATOM?
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.