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Author Topic: Assoication, Scene Controllers  (Read 5751 times)

Offline jjmixman

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Assoication, Scene Controllers
« on: January 21, 2013, 08:34:22 am »
Can someone plaser explain to me why we cannot associate a button control (e.g. S2 in fibaro dimmer, or Vitrium Satellite buttons) directly with the Vera hub. Surely if  a device can be programmed to associate with a physical relay or dimmer, then it must (in theory at least) be possible to tell it to send the same message to the Vera hub. This could then be presented in the UI as the ability to associate a real device with a virtual one (e.g. virtual switch).

This would be incredibly useful as it would solve all the problems with lack of instant status support etc.


Offline chixxi

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 10:10:22 am »
There have been many threads to this topic. For example there's this one, maybe this helps: http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,13302.0.html
Developer of Plugins: Virtual Switch, Variable Container, Popcorn Hour Remote, Vacation Ghost. => PLUGINS HAVE BEEN UNPUBLISHED BY ME.

Offline jjmixman

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 10:27:27 am »
Yes, lots of us are groping about in the dark with this, I think.

However, that thread is talking about the fibaro units associating on group id 3 to send scene activation commands. This is not my point at all. My point is that all switch devices can associate on group ID 1 (or 2 for a second button etc.);  to send on/off commands to a remote physical switch. So why can the Vera not present itself as a target device (or set of devices) for this command class such that we can then associate physical buttons with virtual (software) switches.

The advantage would be that we would no longer be relying on the switch manufacturer to support the scene activation command class.

In the case of Vitrium it seems that they make two products with 4 buttons. One sends on/off/dimmer commands and costs ?107. The other sends scene activation commands and costs ?167. Surely this is just nuts!!!!

I hope someone from MicasaVerde is reading this as I believe I'm giving you a really good idea here :-)

Offline jjmixman

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 10:44:30 am »
BTW, does anyone know what the 'ZWAVE' (node 1) and '_Scene Controller' (node 2) objects do in the association screen. One gets the impression that they might be relevant to this, especially if you could use the multi-channel assoication field to designate a (virtual?)  device or scene number.

This is pure speculaition on my part, mind you!!!

Offline garrettwp

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 12:31:03 pm »
Yes, lots of us are groping about in the dark with this, I think.

However, that thread is talking about the fibaro units associating on group id 3 to send scene activation commands. This is not my point at all. My point is that all switch devices can associate on group ID 1 (or 2 for a second button etc.);  to send on/off commands to a remote physical switch. So why can the Vera not present itself as a target device (or set of devices) for this command class such that we can then associate physical buttons with virtual (software) switches.

The advantage would be that we would no longer be relying on the switch manufacturer to support the scene activation command class.

In the case of Vitrium it seems that they make two products with 4 buttons. One sends on/off/dimmer commands and costs ?107. The other sends scene activation commands and costs ?167. Surely this is just nuts!!!!

I hope someone from MicasaVerde is reading this as I believe I'm giving you a really good idea here :-)

This is a community forum and the changes of MCV taking this thread for a feature request is very slim. They have stated that they would not follow the forum for support issues. Your best bet is to contact them directly.

BTW, does anyone know what the 'ZWAVE' (node 1) and '_Scene Controller' (node 2) objects do in the association screen. One gets the impression that they might be relevant to this, especially if you could use the multi-channel assoication field to designate a (virtual?)  device or scene number.

This is pure speculaition on my part, mind you!!!

If you performed a search, the ZWAVE [node 1] and _Scene Controller [node 2] are part of Vera. They are the zwave cheap and the scene controller. What you are asking I do not think it is possible. If the manufacture has not implemented the instat status (patent issues) you have to rely on polling.

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 08:58:38 am »
My point is that all switch devices can associate on group ID 1 (or 2 for a second button etc.);  to send on/off commands to a remote physical switch. So why can the Vera not present itself as a target device (or set of devices) for this command class such that we can then associate physical buttons with virtual (software) switches.

I think jjmixman has a very good point here!

I have a dimmable light, with local bi-stable switch, but I do NOT want that switch to control the light directly.
Instead I want my Veralite to determine the state of the light based on the switch.
To this end, I cannot feed the local switch to S1 of the FGD211 - as this will switch the light on/off regardless of what the Veralite decides.
I therefore fed the local switch to S2 - which I hope to read in Vera.

I can associate S2 using Group 2 of the FGD211 to another (real) Z-wave device - such as a plug socket. This works, but my problem is when I try and get the Veralite to respond directly, rather than through an intermediate device.

I have installed virtual switch and combination switch plugins, by neither appears in the FGD211 group association menu?
Surely this is the simple way to go forward - as  jjmixman says - if the plugin developers let you associate their virtual switch - then the complicated alternative "scene detection" method would be unnecessary.

I then tried setting the FGD211 "scene detection" parameter 41 to 1.
With the other parameters set as below - Fibaro seem to suggest that scene ID 20 is output when S2 changes from off to on.

I set up an "On" scene and tried triggering it when "ID 20" is received and an "Off" scene when "ID 21" is received - but I cannot get this to work.

Can someone give me any help please?

My parameters set;-
7,15 = 0
14,16,19,41 = 1


Offline garrettwp

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 01:30:28 pm »
As a plugin developer stand point, it is not possible to implement what you are asking for. The associations are configured at the z-wave level and this requires knowing the z-wave protocol (need a developer tool kit and signed nda contract) and MCV to implement. We are only given what MCV has provided us for api's. The only person who can say this is possible is MCV. Also the virtual switch and combination switch are just plugins to perform actions from other devices. They do not and can not work at the z-wave level.

- Garrett

Offline vidarak

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 01:54:35 pm »
Just to let you guys know in this thread too; The use of 2nd button on the Fibaro to control scenes is fully supported by Z-Way/Z-cloud free cloud controller of Z-Wave.Me. It worked pretty much right away for me. Thanks to their excellent log view through the web interface I saw scene changes come in as 2nd button was pushed. I then simply made a trigger to fire scenes based on the scene ID's that came in from the dimmer to Z-Way.

Offline jjmixman

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 04:21:14 pm »
I rather feared that it was not possible for plugin authors to do this as things stand; it is bound to require support from the z-wave software stack inside Vera.

However, we know that Vera has a z-wave chip inside it and it strikes me then as highly likely that we can make it the target of on/off class assoications. With a bit of luck this association could include an endpoint parameter as well. All we need then is for MCV to implement a number of virtual endpoints that make Vera look to z-wave as though there are several switchable devices in it. These could the be used as scene triggers.

Put another way, if MCV's developers are clever enough to have implemented their own z-wave routing protocol, I would think that this kind of thing would be well within their grasp.

I will contact MCW directly with my suggestion.

Offline jjmixman

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 09:12:11 am »
It took a while but I have received this from MCV support

"I've added a feature request in our mantis and should be implemented into the future firmware updates."

We can but hope!

Offline oTi@

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 10:28:24 am »
@jjmixman,

Just some notes.

I think part of the reason this isn't currently possible, might be that the Fibaro's are relatively new (and not available here in the U.S. yet AFAIK). Personally, I'd really like to see one of these, as they appear to be some hybrid switch / 'scene' controller.

I really wonder how capable these devices are in terms of controlling other devices; i.e. if routes get/need programmed, or the device figures these out itself, or if it only works using direct communication, etc.

I'd have to look at some of the remotes (available here) again, but I thought some might work with on/off/dim commands, rather than scene activation commands. So possibly parts of this already exist, but (apparently) not yet for the Fibaro's. Definitely 'Vera the dimmable light' exists, as you already found out.

Scene controllers / scene-capable devices I consider a good thing. (But not many manufacturers support it.)

In terms of instant status, that's a good thing too. Not every switch supports assocations; and/or switches directly control a load (see also @Rompabear's comment).

Associating with a 'virtual device' really means associating with Vera (as associations are a Z-Wave thing); and having Vera distinguish these 'button pushes' and providing a trigger off of it. Which already exists. For instance, I have a 4-button zone controller. One of the buttons toggles a home/away virtual switch (which in turn triggers scenes etc.); another puts a motion sensor in bypass/arm, etc. This is all scene activation based.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 12:09:08 am by oTi@ »
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Offline jjmixman

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 07:35:12 am »
If you're saying I can associate a switch with Vera, how exactly do I do that? I know that if the switch can act as a scene controller then another tab will appear but I can't see how you would do that with a normal (switch->remote load) association. At least not unless that perculiar device listed as '_scene controller' can be used. 

Offline Da_JoJo

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Re: Assoication, Scene Controllers
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 06:21:02 am »
you can make a scene with a trigger for the switch
Vera lite (1.5.622), 2x an-158/2, dead usb pl2302 rs-232, 2x greenwave 6 port, 4x Fibaro FGD211 v1.6, FGBS001, few FGS - 221, etc. AuthomationHD 3 for android :-)
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