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Author Topic: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7  (Read 73718 times)

Offline Da_JoJo

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2013, 10:57:23 pm »
Not sure how you 'know' this... but any statement to what/when/how is irrelevant until something is actually released. I hope you are not holding your breath. 
i'd be dead by now lol

Want to read something funny...
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Luup_Press_Release#Cross_platform_for_OEM_use
... offering cash for plugins, back in 2011. I'd wager a bet they did not actually go through with much, if any, of that.
i know.. still waiting for a discount on the EU version of the development kit ^^
seem like a smart move back in the day but i wonder who ever got it.
 
I'm not worried about UI7 or UI9999 ... none of it will matter soon enough. In the next 6-10 months we will see systems, for about the same price as Vera, that do the as much, or more, without all the hacks and code we need for Vera. Luckily it will be easier to recreate what I have in Vera in the new systems that it will be to try migrate to the next 'slightly less' sh!tty version of Vera's OS.
probably .. i still have a little sprank of hope. nonetheless im looking for a better alternative some time and didnt find one.
Vera lite (1.5.622), 2x an-158/2, dead usb pl2302 rs-232, 2x greenwave 6 port, 4x Fibaro FGD211 v1.6, FGBS001, few FGS - 221, etc. AuthomationHD 3 for android :-)
Dutch & German translator http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Special:AllPages http://support.micasaverde.com http://domotica-shop.nl

Offline chixxi

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #136 on: November 08, 2013, 09:20:20 am »
lol @Aaron, first you write:

Quote
Not sure how you 'know' this... but any statement to what/when/how is irrelevant until something is actually released.

And then you go ahead talking crap yourself without any facts at all:

Quote
I'm not worried about UI7 or UI9999 ... none of it will matter soon enough. In the next 6-10 months we will see systems, for about the same price as Vera, that do the as much, or more, without all the hacks and code we need for Vera. Luckily it will be easier to recreate what I have in Vera in the new systems that it will be to try migrate to the next 'slightly less' sh!tty version of Vera's OS.

If you have alternatives, let us know, give us feedback, compare them to vera. That would actually help somebody, I am interessted in alternatives, but I don't know a single one with this price tag. But your continuing "vera will soon be dead"-predictions are really no use to anybody. You might as well just keep quiet.


And by the way, if you ask MCV you do get cash/payback, not a couple of thousand, but i.e. for the last ten vera's I ordered I had 50% of each.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:21:51 am by chixxi »
Developer of Plugins: Virtual Switch, Variable Container, Popcorn Hour Remote, Vacation Ghost. => PLUGINS HAVE BEEN UNPUBLISHED BY ME.

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #137 on: November 08, 2013, 09:54:31 am »
My statements are 100% accurate...
  • when I said "Not sure how you 'know' this... but any statement to what/when/how is irrelevant until something is actually released." ... this was directly related to Da_Jojo's statement made about Vera releasing a new UI.  Vera has not provided any dates, thus his statement is not factual.
  • My '6-10 months' statement was not about Vera, but about other competing products that have announced releases and there is a lot of information already available about them... thus based in actual information from the companies.
[li]I did not predict Vera to be dead soon - dead means company out of business or product no longer being sold to the same target market. I did predict they would not be able to compete with the new entries into the market unless they had a significant change in their UI (OS's) features/functionality and support of the user community.
[/li][/list]

... I'm not just some schmo making random, unfounded, predictions. I have followed the HA market for over 15 years and I work the high-tech industry as a technical marketing and business development manager.  I'm one of the guys the market research companies calls (pays as a consultant) to get input on industry trends, market sizes, use cases, etc.

go read about the $299 Revolv with 7 radios built in (including Insteon, ZWave, Zigbee + free life time subscription)...
http://www.cepro.com/article/revolv_299_home_automation_device_has_7_radios_27m_funding/
... big industry backing/funding too

I'm glad Vera has taken care of you for developing code, I had never heard that from anyone before.

Offline chixxi

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #138 on: November 09, 2013, 05:39:18 am »
Much better Aaron, I like these posts with some more information way better.  ;D

The revolve is a pretty interesting product, even though nobody has seen its user interface yet. But personally I don't like their dedication to the US and iPhone, but that is just logic since I am a European Android guy. I wonder though if any of these new controllers will arrive on the market with a perfect User Interface, and that might be the point where you got much more insights and professional experience. But I would speculate that many of these new startups will have to go through a learning curve to first gather the experience for actually being able to make a good home automation UI.

And that is where I am hoping for vera, they have advantages, for example a good User Community, a small developer base, they have actually sold device all over the world. If they are able to fit these experiences in UI7, then there is hope.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 05:59:31 am by chixxi »
Developer of Plugins: Virtual Switch, Variable Container, Popcorn Hour Remote, Vacation Ghost. => PLUGINS HAVE BEEN UNPUBLISHED BY ME.

Offline Brientim

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #139 on: November 09, 2013, 05:54:32 am »
Just a side note: the next generation of z-wave chipset is designed for the international multi spectrum (expect Japan's new 950 MHz which they are switching too). So even though the concept of the products maybe US based, it may have embedded selectable wider use.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/documents/ZM3102_br.pdf

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #140 on: November 09, 2013, 10:25:39 am »
Chixxi,
My point to all of this is that Revolv is ONE OF MANY new entries into this market... and the new companies are hungry to succeed, several backed by venture capital. The attitude of these startups (I've worked with a few startups over the past 4 years) is much different (read as BETTER) than MCV - these companies know the key to success is delivering exactly what the customer wants, when they want it, and how they want it - no matter what the price point is. This all amounts to a good product with good customer service.

Does Vera have a head start, NO.  Vera is likely BEHIND...
  • They need to fix their reputation
  • They need to fix their OS/APP - which may need a complete revamp which is as much or more work as the guys starting from scratch
  • they may need new hardware to add new, and more, radios to integrate ZigBee & Insteon in the box

I bought the Vera when migrating away from Homeseer for a few reasons, and it has been a very questionable decision. The only light, and it is a bright one, is the user community (incl user developers). But I'm know this will not help me stay with Vera in the coming years as so many good devices are coming to market and they will have a larger following that Vera immediately... they might already have a larger following and they have not even shipped product yet!

So far MCV/Vera has proven...
  • they are not good at programming frameworks - the code has tons of limitations even for developers
  • they are not good at design / user experience
  • they don't understand anything beyond the ABCs of Home Automation
  • they are very bad at marketing - "Vera who"?
  • they don't care about their user community and provide no customer support
  • they provide very little support for developers
  • they don't document their own apps
  • they rarely fix bugs, and don't respond to bug submissions
  • they don't update software except on very rare occasions (like once a year - which usually breaks other things)
  • they are not smart enough to use free labor to help design and test - user/developer community

... how they are in business is really beyond me. I suspect what sustains the company is not directly from Vera related revenue - or these people make very little money, thus eat a lot of Ramon noodles.






Offline RichardTSchaefer

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #141 on: November 09, 2013, 10:52:30 am »
@Aaron
I have watched for a while ... but all of these new products are fantastic if you believe the Marketing people. Products running on the PowerPoint/Flash platform are fast, reliable, user friendly, achieve ever one's objectives, have no bugs, are inexpensive, and will integrate with everything you could ever image, now or in the future! 

I for one believe in a product that I can buy now, meets my current objectives, and will likely be around next year when I have a problem. 

At this time that list is short ... it contains Vera.

As my needs change ... I constantly re-evaluate the current real market.
I am more confident than you that Vera will still be a player.  At each of these decision points I can decide to continue with Vera or switch to a new platform.

I personally am not tied to Vera. I will always use what is best for me. I expect that MCV will always do what is in the best interests for them. I do not think you have enough information to make that call for them! If you want to do a market analysis of current strengths and weaknesses of current products that any 3rd party can validate than lets see it!
 




Offline BrianLBeaton

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2013, 11:02:49 am »
@Aaron
Products running on the PowerPoint/Flash platform are fast, reliable, user friendly, achieve everyone's objectives, have no bugs, are inexpensive, and will integrate with everything you could ever image, now or in the future!

Clever!

Offline intveltr

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #143 on: November 09, 2013, 11:35:25 am »
The one thing that gets me about a lot of these new contenders on the HA market, is that they are seem to sell me a solution rather than a platform.  It's a bit like the difference between iOS and Android: iOS is closed, works fantastic if it does what you want , but you're stuck if it doesn't.  Android on the other hand is open.  The advantage is that you can tailor it to your taste, the drawback is that you have to.  (Full disclosure: I'm an iOS guy :) )

HA is a complex market: many regions with very different requirements, and many standards.  I don't expect to see an "Apple" type of turnkey solution anytime soon.  Vera on the other hand is a platform rather than a solution: you may not be able to make it do what you want out of the box, but something or someone out there can.  That's its strength, and that is also what I would expect from a system to replace my Vera.

The issue with Vera is that it is mostly open at the plugin level (which is great, by the way).  The system that also opens up at the UI and device level, to allow extensions on the UI and allow us to roll our own "device drivers" for Z-wave stuff that isn't yet supported, would be a clear winner.
HomeWave is available in the App Store!  Turn your iPhone/iPad into an easy-to-use remote control for Vera.

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #144 on: November 09, 2013, 12:44:45 pm »
@RichardTSchaefer

I concur, and I constantly do the same. I will be receiving my Almond + in January and am on the list for the Revolv when it launches, likely in the next 3-4 months. I will do a comparison, and I will be looking at Homeseer v3 since Homeseer is really the leader in the space and has been for a long time.

The fact remains that Vera will be facing 10x the competition in the coming year... no matter if the slideware is real-world or not. And most of those companies are backed by big money. Starting next year HA will be brought to the masses, no longer for the rich. I'd love Vera to do the right thing by their user base and provide the features, functionality, and a user friendly UI... But there is no evidence Vera has capability or drive to do any of those.

@intveltr
Good systems provide both. Look at the vets in the DIY HA market (Homeseer, ISY, etc)... they all provide robust/complete solutions w/ APIs. Many of the new contenders are also going to be doing that. This is why I already payed the $ for my Almond + 

Offline intveltr

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #145 on: November 09, 2013, 01:14:09 pm »
Not sure about HomeSeer, from what I hear they suffer from compatibility issues with Z-wave devices as well, and rely on the core devs to get it fixed (rather than the community).  Also, I do not like their pricing model, as a user and as a developer.
HomeWave is available in the App Store!  Turn your iPhone/iPad into an easy-to-use remote control for Vera.

Offline Da_JoJo

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #146 on: November 10, 2013, 10:27:28 pm »
10x the competition that has to prove themselves first and for now 80% is marketing blablabla and great ideas (which i have a lot too but don't claim anything) and still not comparable to vera
homeseer a 1000 euro with some z-wave devices a 1000 euro for a small home..  vera will set you back at least 1000 euro for small home (consider my 3 room installation is allready over 1500 euro and im on 50% of what i want)
most of the ppl cannot afford this stuff  ::)
and then saying ur consultant and have thourough knowledge about the stuff while half of the insight is crap and sounds like a unsatisfied kid having no idea how mcv holds up.. jeeh.. i donno man lol
vera was the headstart also and a development box rather then a customer endproduct. the new UI will be out before the end of this year.
fibaro is also a great example build on MiOS technology btw
and yes i eat noodles too ... together with my coffee it's my favourite spending the night  ;D
for me its like a middle-east expert saying its not nice to live in the middle-east... but most ppl there have to live there anyway and coop with the daily stuff which works for them and isn't perfect either. on a sidenote they know they have to learn like every human on this planet and not contradict themselves and sit on a ivory tower.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 10:56:40 pm by Da_JoJo »
Vera lite (1.5.622), 2x an-158/2, dead usb pl2302 rs-232, 2x greenwave 6 port, 4x Fibaro FGD211 v1.6, FGBS001, few FGS - 221, etc. AuthomationHD 3 for android :-)
Dutch & German translator http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Special:AllPages http://support.micasaverde.com http://domotica-shop.nl

Offline Brientim

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2013, 02:30:50 am »
I am not going to degrade anyone comments; however, right now in front of me I have a Vera, HS2 PRO, HS3 Pro and a Control system all fully operable (C4 very limited as it was a pull from storage as it was an older system but still capability of being upgrade to their current firmware, if I desired and wanted to put my hands in my pocket and lash out more than a Vera).

Homeseer is not a full solution but is based on two part software and hardware. Yes, they do offer this as part of their own integrated product system; however, for international citizens the integrated is not an option in all cases.  Its development and 3rd party apps are based on a very different model to Vera. HS3 has been a long time coming, over 3 years and the beta phase is ongoing with a final roll out???? Development of old versions really came to a stop several years ago. Interface is as ugly as sin and I state that for HS3 as well.

Control4, expensive and a locked down system. It has also been very restricted and limited in development. The biggest move has came from 3rd party developers that once again only sell to C4 Installers to enable them to integrate other systems including Vera to add z-wave device capability.  Pretty well interface but usability is limited to their logic. Don't think outside the box.
 
Even though I do not get much time, Vera is the basis for my HA control system. My wife finds it easy and more usable they HS (she never used C4). It is not always a single product that is the full solution but neither where Homeseer or C4.  Vera offers the ability and flexibility that is not matched by either of them. Vera may lack Conditional logic, a pretty interface or the ability to customize the interface (re-skin but really neither do the others and if your on the interface all the time, it is not HA in my books) but the work around(s) that have been developed have muted some of this requirements for the time being. 

I do hope what the bugs fixes are delivered in the new UI but I am less worried about the look and more desire the delivered functionality and especially integrated Conditional logic and visualization network reporting capability. I would love to see them really set some teaser on what they are doing... Wait and see.  We all know that companies love to draw people in with good teaser and promotional video and hopefully MCV can take the time to do some promotions too....
   
   

Offline Da_JoJo

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2013, 05:51:57 am »
vera does have the option to "re-skin" on remote as well as the vera itself which other totally lack. see different remotes here : http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/board,12.0.html  and here a on-board re-skin/control : http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,13133.0.html
together with PLEG for conditional stuff and logic i think this more then fills the gap. i dont see this muted requirements options possible on other devices.
Vera lite (1.5.622), 2x an-158/2, dead usb pl2302 rs-232, 2x greenwave 6 port, 4x Fibaro FGD211 v1.6, FGBS001, few FGS - 221, etc. AuthomationHD 3 for android :-)
Dutch & German translator http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Special:AllPages http://support.micasaverde.com http://domotica-shop.nl

Offline Brientim

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2013, 06:14:17 am »
The options are external are 3rd party interfaces and the my Vera option requires requires hosting and additional web servers which is not re skinning but the generation of another interface though it is hosted on Vera or external.

The muted is reference to the push for MCV redeveloped to include conditional logic in their design. Whilst the work by forum developers achieve this, it is not an embedded function.

Basically the developers and forum members filled the gaps that MCV left open in their design.  The future UI needs to pick up where they have left off.