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Author Topic: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7  (Read 72535 times)

Offline Thiemen

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2013, 06:16:11 am »
Latest news from Vera Facebook:

UI7 should be released at the end of Q1 2014, with private beta releases available early 2014.

Offline intveltr

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2013, 08:59:38 am »
Latest news from Vera Facebook:

Hmm.  If they make a public announcement like that on Facebook  :-X , you'd think they could stop by here and let us (Vera's loyal followers) know as well.
HomeWave is available in the App Store!  Turn your iPhone/iPad into an easy-to-use remote control for Vera.

Offline Thiemen

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2013, 09:16:30 am »
Hmm.  If they make a public announcement like that on Facebook  :-X , you'd think they could stop by here and let us (Vera's loyal followers) know as well.

True That

Offline ntk

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2013, 09:22:18 am »
they say till the end of this year (less than 2 months), now its almost 5 :-\
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:28:43 am by ntk »

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2013, 09:52:16 am »
Latest news from Vera Facebook:

Hmm.  If they make a public announcement like that on Facebook  :-X , you'd think they could stop by here and let us (Vera's loyal followers) know as well.

Clearly you don't know marketing... their target market is soccer mom's and teenagers. Sheesh...  ;)

Again Vera provides more evidence they don't 'get it'.

@Brientim
I understand your points and as we all realize, people have different use cases - thus this will affect needs and value for each product.

I used Homeseer v1.7 (for a long time) and v2 for a while. I ran it on a PC, which was fine since you can run it on a $50 PC (laptops are great... built-in UPS, KB & monitor, small, etc)

Homeseer, even in version 1.7 (from 8 years ago) is 50 times more robust... no exaggeration.  I created very complex scenes in a few minutes Homeseer's UI. While PLEG is nice, it is far more complicated and time consuming to setup complex scenes - even basic ones really. And PLEG is still limited by Vera's inadequacies, making this even harder. Homeseer's navigation/layout is WAY easier to administer.

My points are purely about the HA itself (admin/creation), not the user front-end as you should keep the admin GUI separate from the user front-end.
While The Vera GUI is blah, I could care less. The automation engine needs to be reliable (not crash, complete commands instantly), robust (handle 100s of scenes & devices), and very flexible (do nearly anything the user could ask).  In these areas many other packages do this 100x better than Vera... Homeseer, Elve, ISY, etc.

Vera fails on many of these (a few key examples below) ...

RELIABILITY
For a while I needed to reboot Vera nightly or it would simply stop. This is no longer needed but I find that I need to reboot as sometimes is just stops working, or works VERY slowly... about once a week.

ROBUSTNESS
I don't have that many devices or scenes... compared to what I had in Homeseer. Vera3 is not robust enough to handle more that small enviros. I suspect the issue is not the hardware but the MIOS and/or their HA app(s).  This, of course, makes the reliability worse.

FLEXIBILITY/USABILITY
This is by far the largest issue - or really, sets of issues.
Devs have problems writing code because of the limitations of the core code (I don't know the half of it but what I know would fill a page itself) --  not a problem with other mature DIY solutions like Elve, Homeseer, etc
Scene creation is the largest PoS in Vera. No logical IF/THEN/ELSE. You cannot even trigger a Scene from a Scene(WTF?)! etc.
... This, and the dozens of other items, are clear signs the people building Vera don't actually know or use HA more than just to turn their reading light on at 9pm and off at 11pm.




« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:57:55 am by Aaron »

Offline Z-Waver

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2013, 11:38:06 am »
@Aaron - You present so very many valid points. I agree that there are a lot of opportunities for significant improvements to Vera and I too feel a sense of frustration and want since MCV has not yet given us a new improved firmware or the promised hardware. But, other brands do the same thing. I feel even more strongly about Fibaro's failure to delivery their promised U.S. products.

None the less, I still struggle to understand why you chose to leave Homeseer for Vera when you repeatedly indicate that you feel Homeseer(even deprecated versions) is orders of magnitude better than Vera. I seem to recall some reference to nickel and diming pricing, though it may not have been you that said it. Is the purported vast superiority of Homeseer not worth an extra few hundred dollars, to you? If so, why not?

You seem eager to throw hundreds more dollars, than you have already spent on Homeseer and Vera, at products that are still vaporware. Why did you not simply choose to spend that money on the product that seems to satisfy you so much more(Homeseer)? Why do you continue to avoid that choice?

I chose Vera because of a few features that were very important to me that other vendors did not offer. To date, I remain satisfied with my choice, though I will admit I do want more. Vera attributes that caused me to choose it and I have yet to see matched by any other vendor:

Z-Wave.
Simple enough.
Embedded low wattage hardware negating the need for a separate PC.
Capability and extensibility vs. walled garden lockin!
Low cost.
Local control and access.
Ability to continue using the product if the company fails or discontinues control servers.
Remote access.
No monthly cost for remote access / control servers.

Offline Da_JoJo

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #156 on: November 19, 2013, 07:00:03 am »
and so the grass is allways greener on the other side.. heck some ppl even smoke it..
nevertheless the vera offers what other company's still fail in.. being a allround controlpoint for the remote controlled z-wave and other stuff and while there are allways points where it can be improved there is allways a kid that wants more and start whining about it while others do their efforts to make it better and try to get it to the point where it satisfies there needs. still waiting for some answers to convince me to buy another controller ^^
Vera lite (1.5.622), 2x an-158/2, dead usb pl2302 rs-232, 2x greenwave 6 port, 4x Fibaro FGD211 v1.6, FGBS001, few FGS - 221, etc. AuthomationHD 3 for android :-)
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Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #157 on: November 19, 2013, 10:38:04 am »
Here's food for thought...

look over your entire Vera system/solution - what % of what you use (devices, events, actions, scripts, activities, etc) are based upon user community provided code.

Here's mine...

Devices: 85 total -- 47 only exist because of community code

Apps: 15 total - 14 are community apps

90-95% of my system works ONLY because of the community:

- PLEG, runs ~50% of my scenes, will be more quickly
- Altsteon owns 95% of my dimmers/switches (over 20 Insteon devices - dimmers & switches)
- DataMine tracks everything, and has helped me troubleshoot Air Conditioning issues
- Weather Underground, required for scenes
- Night/Day, required for scenes
- Virtual Switches, required to do MANY things
- Variable Container
- Vacation Ghost
- Wake on LAN
- XBMC State, required to create scenes around watching TV/Movies
- Ping Sensor, very important for occupancy tracking

... i'm sure I'll find more as my system becomes more complex/automated

Offline Z-Waver

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2013, 11:00:27 am »
@Aaron - So, what is your point? What other platform currently offers the same functionality or extensibility as Vera? You continue to express apparent disdain for Vera and state that you are moving to other platforms, while continuing to use the product.

As I asked previously, you seem to hold Homeseer(that you already paid for) in very high regard, as compared to Vera. Yet you use Vera. Why?

The pie-in-the-sky future systems either don't exist or are failing to deliver on their previous promise or hope. It is my opinion that Vera still delivers the best mix. It is also my opinion that you feel the same way, or you would not continue to use Vera.

This not to imply that there is not a lot of room for improvement. But, it does appear that you are campaigning against Vera in favor of something that simply doesn't exist, yet.

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2013, 11:20:15 am »
Lets clarify a few things that I actually did say...

1)  I will move to another platform if Vera goes not up their game quickly. I already have a ton of time invested in Vera and the device itself is fine, the support and native software is crap.

2) I don't own a current Homeseer license. I have one from v1.7 (8 years ago) so that version does not support Zwave. Homeseer is not perfect, but is much better software that Vera. I  bought Vera (at 50% off) hoping the platform would get much quicker improvements as MCV looked like they were going to do something great... 2 years ago!

I'm hoping some of the new platforms will be better... so far Revolv (I had high hopes for, has 7 radios, etc) is not ready for the big leagues.

When I get time (just started a very busy new job) I will be looking at ISY and also Homeseer AIO devices. These are the most mature platforms in our 'market'. I will also be looking at Elve, which has been around a while and looks pretty good.

... but yes, I'm still praying Vera steps up and becomes the system we all know it COULD be.

Offline Ds514

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #160 on: November 22, 2013, 08:55:05 am »
90-95% of my system works ONLY because of the community:
... i'm sure I'll find more as my system becomes more complex/automated

Don't forget the mobile interface apps, without which this system would be of questionable use to me. I wonder if anyone would disagree with the statement that Vera's position in the market is viable only as a result of the community input. It seems like MCV (and let's be frank, it is clearly still MCV in spirit) has a love/hate relationship with that community: they realize that the product is marketable largely because of it, yet fear it in a Wizard of Oz sort of way.

Offline intveltr

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #161 on: November 22, 2013, 09:09:28 am »
I wonder if anyone would disagree with the statement that Vera's position in the market is viable only as a result of the community input. It seems like MCV (and let's be frank, it is clearly still MCV in spirit) has a love/hate relationship with that community: they realize that the product is marketable largely because of it, yet fear it in a Wizard of Oz sort of way.

I think any successful HA system will have to rely either on community developers or a massive development and support effort from the manufacturer.  HA is a rather diverse field in terms of types of users, their needs, and the types and brands of devices available. 

Imagine Apple developing a brilliant (and shiny) but closed HA line of products, but hey, their thermostat is no good to me here in Europe so I'd like to use my existing Wifi thermostat and custom built Wifi sprinkler controller.  However good the rest of their system will be, it will never be a complete HA solution for me unless I get my particular devices supported.  My view is that unlike many other fields, in HA this will not be a minority situation.  Now, Apple may work hard to support my particular device, but it's unrealistic to expect support for everything, every need, and every use case.  And that's where the community comes in.

Any manufacturer hoping to conquer the HA market will have to open up their system.
HomeWave is available in the App Store!  Turn your iPhone/iPad into an easy-to-use remote control for Vera.

Offline Aaron

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2013, 10:02:04 am »
I don't think that the success of any HA system is based on the community writing massive amounts of code to fill core system gaps (virtual devices, complex scenes, timers, etc). Talking about a consumer (not open source / free) offerings, there are several (costs in decreasing order) like Crestron, Control4, HAI, Homeseer, Elve, Home Control Assistant - core code from the vendor has nearly everything I use, where with Vera the community had to create it.

Most fall short with mobile apps so, and while I rely on AutHomation like it is oxygen, I will not count that against Vera. -- I know you are surprised huh ;-)

Vera needs to give us UI7 so we can see/touch/play... they need to instil confidence in the community. I have a feeling that UI7 is mostly smoke and mirrors and that is why they have not.

Offline Sender

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2013, 10:54:23 am »
If there was no authomationhd I would not have vera anymore.
Good firmware is more important than good karma. (and this costed me lots of Karma)

Offline dferrey

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Re: CEDIA 2013 - MiCasaVerde changes name to Vera and suggest UI7
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2013, 11:39:59 am »
I don't think that the success of any HA system is based on the community writing massive amounts of code to fill core system gaps (virtual devices, complex scenes, timers, etc). Talking about a consumer (not open source / free) offerings, there are several (costs in decreasing order) like Crestron, Control4, HAI, Homeseer, Elve, Home Control Assistant - core code from the vendor has nearly everything I use, where with Vera the community had to create it.
and yet you use Vera, why is that?

I understand what you're saying.  But creating all that "core code" comes at a cost. Sometime "you get what you pay for", is reality.  Vera was my first toe in the automation waters.  I put it on hold while a tested Smartthings whose business model is similar to Vera. The difference is the user community code base is in it's infancy.  That plus their view of Android as a second class citizen behind the iPhone caused me to sell Smartthings and return to Vera.

I would love if Vera had the all the bells and whistles found with user developed apps, but coding isn't cheap and Vera is priced right for me.