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Author Topic: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?  (Read 9163 times)

Offline wilme2

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enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« on: January 10, 2014, 02:12:10 pm »
MiCasaVerde/VERA announced an Enocean plug-in at CES, and there is a thread for the plug-in (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,17774.0.html), but other than that I don't see ANY discussion.  I was looking for a good way to do occupancy detection when I realized that there are Enocean solar-powered ceiling-mounted occupancy sensors available for $75 at Home Depot under the Leviton brand. 

Does this not potentially revolutionize how we do occupancy detection on VERA?  Sure, we can do it with z-wave or alarm system motion detectors, but you have a whole series of issues with those for occupancy detection, including directionality and sensitivity (on alarm system-based detectors to prevent false alarms).  These would be 360 degree detectors and potentially need no wiring or batteries.
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Offline S-F

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 03:07:04 pm »
My forum account was apparently hacked by a leprechaun. And he's drunk all of the time. If a post of mine seems a little off kilter, it's probably because he made it.

Offline gibby

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 03:08:29 pm »
I hope these will be supported.

Offline kzemach

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 03:19:54 pm »
From the Leviton info packet:

"The LevNet RF line
includes multiple products that operate in the
uncrowded 315MHz band offering greater transmission
range (50-150 feet) than other wireless
technologies and minimal competitive traffic."

Thus, it is not Z-Wave.

Offline S-F

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 03:24:54 pm »

Thus, it is not Z-Wave.

Bro, it's EnOcean. There is an EnOcean plugin for Vera.
My forum account was apparently hacked by a leprechaun. And he's drunk all of the time. If a post of mine seems a little off kilter, it's probably because he made it.

Offline guessed

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 03:38:08 pm »
I started using Ceiling mounted Motion detectors a few months ago, as a trial, and I do find them better than the wall mounted ones.  It's part of why I now also have Nest Smoke sensors, which are basically the same form-factor.

The specific ones I have don't provide directionality information, although I can get a different model that does if that were a big showstopper.

In my case, they're hardwired to my Alarm system, and they have adjustable sensitivity, but my comments are more about the form-factor than the connectivity method. 

So far, it's better for my initial use-case (walk-in walkdrobe spaces).  I'm hoping the Nest stuff will open up access, since my Smokes are all in the areas that I'd otherwise want to detect motion, which I'm sure they've also realized, for better overall presence detection.


At the time I did this, I already had a few of these ceiling mounted motions laying around (from eBay @$10ea).  I contemplated using the EnOcean ones, but the price-point (along with the associated Dongle cost, and lack of exposure) turned me off using them.

Let us know how you get on.  At this stage, I'd classify it as an opportunity, whether it's "huge" or not is still to be proven out.   ;)

Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 03:41:33 pm »
I'm assuming that this is the unit you speak of?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-LevNet-RF-Enabled-by-EnOcean-PIR-Wireless-Self-Powered-Occupancy-Sensor-White-040-WSC15-IRW/203468578

Have you tried one? How well does it work?

Yes, and there is also this one floating around in the $100 range, although not at Home Depot...  http://www.smarthome.com/86590/Leviton-WSC04-I0W-LevNet-RF-Wireless-Self-Powered-Solar-Occupancy-Sensor-450-Square-Feet/p.aspx

I haven't tried them but I am interested.  Virtually no experience with them listed on the forum, which doesn't necessarily scare me - I just wanted some validation that others think these have as much potential as I do before I go spend $200 (USB stick + first sensor) and try to make them work...

Solar and ceiling mounted.  I can't think of a comparable product that is either - certainly not z-wave.
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Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 04:07:00 pm »
In my case, they're hardwired to my Alarm system, and they have adjustable sensitivity, but my comments are more about the form-factor than the connectivity method. 

For an alarm system motion detector to act as an accurate occupancy sensor, you really need to be able to adjust the sensitivity on the fly - IMO.  At least if you have a pet.  I recently installed a Bosch tri-tech motion and enabled pet features.  Works perfectly for the alarm application as the pet can't set it off.  But as far as occupancy, it won't recognize a human sitting on the couch unless they get up and walk around.  I have seen posts on competitive product sites where they adjust the sensitivity when the alarm goes into Away mode, and back when it turns off - that would be optimal.

My house is a three-story townhome, and hard-wiring on lower floors across tiny 2 foot crawl spaces is extremely difficult and nearly impossible to some locations without major sheetrock repairs.  So I like the concept of dedicated occupancy sensors that don't have to be wired or even battery powered.  And if my cat trips the occupancy sensor and turns on hall lights - no big deal compared to setting off the alarm.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:24:02 pm by wilme2 »
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Offline guessed

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 06:50:13 pm »
For an alarm system motion detector to act as an accurate occupancy sensor, you really need to be able to adjust the sensitivity on the fly - IMO.  At least if you have a pet.  I recently installed a Bosch tri-tech motion and enabled pet features.  Works perfectly for the alarm application as the pet can't set it off. 

But as far as occupancy, it won't recognize a human sitting on the couch unless they get up and walk around.
The need to "move around" is a symptom of PIR-only based detection, that's common in most of the home-grade Motion detectors.  Doesn't really matter whether they in an Alarm system, ZWave or something else... all PIR-only based things work similarly in this respect.

So these devices, no matter what the transport, are really just inputs to an overall occupancy algorithm.  At htis stage, I've seen no commercially viable, and home-priced, options for real occupancy detection...

...although there are several efforts underway (using Camera's and/or RF signal processing, for example)

My ceiling mount sensors have selectable sensitivity levels, which are setup at the Panel itself (they're "sent" to the device during it's configuration).  This only works if the Panel itself can do that, and the devices can fall back to "dumb" mode if they're paired with a non-Paradox Alarm system.... in which case you can manually select the sensitivity level.

They're definitely not pet immune, but that's not an issue in my house.
Quote
I have seen posts on competitive product sites where they adjust the sensitivity when the alarm goes into Away mode, and back when it turns off - that would be optimal.
No idea if it does that or not, but it could in theory.

Quote
My house is a three-story townhome, and hard-wiring on lower floors across tiny 2 foot crawl spaces is extremely difficult and nearly impossible to some locations without major sheetrock repairs.  So I like the concept of dedicated occupancy sensors that don't have to be wired or even battery powered.  And if my cat trips the occupancy sensor and turns on hall lights - no big deal compared to setting off the alarm.
Fair enough.  I've gotten used to wall repairs, and re-spackling.  In my case, my "additional" Motion sensors are attached to the Panel, but their Zone setups are done so they won't trigger house Alarms.  Fairly standard options are used, and these are available in just about all Panels.  Only my "original" PIR's are set to trigger the Alarm...  I've done the same for internal doors that are hooked to the Panel.

I do have 3x battery operated Motions in my system, so I understand the reasoning.  In my case, they don't suffer from the "detection lag" that other brands are seeing (DSC is reportedly 6 seconds).

That said, they suffer from the other problem common with Battery devices, they trip 2-3 times before they lockout for a few minutes (to save juice).  The wired sensors don't suffer from this problem, since they're not trying to give longevity to their batteries.

Let us know how your trial goes.  It'll be good to see how they perform in this respect also (since, fundamentally, they've got a battery inside them also, just being charged by the Panels)


Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 04:17:47 pm »
I'm assuming that this is the unit you speak of?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-LevNet-RF-Enabled-by-EnOcean-PIR-Wireless-Self-Powered-Occupancy-Sensor-White-040-WSC15-IRW/203468578

Have you tried one? How well does it work?

I went with the WSC-4 ($81.18 shipped), the other has too much coverage for most homes, I think.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-LevNet-RF-Enabled-by-EnOcean-White-PIR-Wireless-Self-Powered-Occupancy-Sensor-040-WSC04-IRW/203468560

And for the VERA side, I ordered ($42.72 shipped)
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/semi-energy/wireless-transceiver-modules/Pages/9020035-S3034-K300.aspx?IM=0

The good news is that the Occupancy Sensor pairs easily with VERA, and the telegrams are received by VERA which you can tell because debug messages are still showing in the blue notification screen.  Unfortunately right now the associated motion detector doesn't trip when the telegram is received, so you can't automate anything - frustrating because so close but still unusable.  I reported this on the plug-in thread and e-mailed the author who indicated he would look at it as time allows...
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Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 12:23:00 pm »
Andrei sent me new code for the plug-in, and now the Occupancy Sensor is working!  Will be running tests over the next few days, but I think this is going to be very cool...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:25:12 pm by wilme2 »
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Offline SirMeili

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2014, 12:27:26 pm »
If these work well, I can see using them for general presence detection. When you report back, can you go into how responsive they are? I'm thinking of a wired alarm system, but if these are pretty responsive, I may just go with these for presence detection.
VeraLite (Live); ISY 994i (Live); Vera 3 (Waiting to replace VeraLite); Vera Edge (Waiting for all the bugs to be fixed); Xuan StackBox (Testing and waiting for more plugins and for it to mature)
Countless z-wave and insteon devices :D

Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 03:00:53 pm »
If these work well, I can see using them for general presence detection. When you report back, can you go into how responsive they are? I'm thinking of a wired alarm system, but if these are pretty responsive, I may just go with these for presence detection.

So far the USB stick + the Occupancy Sensor works great.  I have a Bosch motion detector nearby for my alarm system and these pick up far more activity than it does.  To be fair that is by design - the Bosch is a tri-tech using microwave + PIR (ignore the lecture above about PIR only) so is designed to prevent false alarms and only trip when both microwave and PIR sense activity.  The Occupancy Sensor on the other hand is very sensitive and trips much further and with lower levels of motion.  Note I used the WSC-4 on purpose as it detects minor motion close to the sensor - roughly 5 feet away.  The WSC-15 only detects major motion - see the Leviton documentation.  Probably same sensor tweaked for different distances.

So right now I am happy with my Living Room Occupancy Sensor (OK really a 'couch sensor' that is detecting small movements like cough potatoes watching TV).  Next test is to see how multiple will work on the same network via the VERA plug-in.  From what I can tell, EnOcean is NOT a mesh network, and a repeater might be needed as some point.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 03:03:40 pm by wilme2 »
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Offline SirMeili

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 03:03:04 pm »
If these work well, I can see using them for general presence detection. When you report back, can you go into how responsive they are? I'm thinking of a wired alarm system, but if these are pretty responsive, I may just go with these for presence detection.

So far they work great.  I have a Bosch motion detector nearby and these pick up far more activity than it does.  To be fair that is by design - the Bosch is a tri-tech using microwave + PIR (ignore the lecture above about PIR only) so is designed to prevent false alarms and only trip when both microwave and PIR sense activity.  The Occupancy Sensor on the other hand is very sensitive and trips much further and with lower levels of motion.  Note I used the WSC-4 on purpose as it detects minor motion close to the sensor - roughly 5 feet away.  The WSC-15 only detects major motion - see the Leviton documentation.  Probably same sensor tweaked for different distances.

So right now I am happy with my Living Room Occupancy Sensor (OK really a 'couch sensor' that is detecting small movements like cough potatoes watching TV).  Next test is to see how multiple will work on the same network via the VERA plug-in.  From what I can tell, EnOcean is NOT a mesh network, and a repeater might be needed as some point.

Quick question...

Is the sensativity adjustable? We have 3 dogs and 5 cats. It would be nice if it were adjustable. Then again, maybe should look at hte WSC-15 instead (they are the same price).
VeraLite (Live); ISY 994i (Live); Vera 3 (Waiting to replace VeraLite); Vera Edge (Waiting for all the bugs to be fixed); Xuan StackBox (Testing and waiting for more plugins and for it to mature)
Countless z-wave and insteon devices :D

Offline wilme2

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Re: enocean occupancy sensor - huge opportunity?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 03:07:30 pm »
Quick question...

Is the sensativity adjustable? We have 3 dogs and 5 cats. It would be nice if it were adjustable. Then again, maybe should look at hte WSC-15 instead (they are the same price).

There are no settings at all.  I don't think my cat has set it off, and he perches on the top of 6 foot cat tree at the edge of the room.  I will build an alert to trigger when my alarm is set 'away' and the Occupancy Sensor detects motion to see if he is triggering it.  Of course, YMMV...  Home Depot has store returns, so a test would in theory just put you out of the cost of the USB stick, which I got for $42 from a link above, and maybe a few bucks for Home Depot shipping if they don't credit that...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 03:43:06 pm by wilme2 »
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