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Author Topic: Vera UI7 Beta Program  (Read 153009 times)

Offline AndreasE

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2014, 03:13:22 am »
That would be very different as you literately have 100's of computer manufacturers all with color screens and wifi in them. If you buy one without color your the only one to blame! You bought it when its not what you wanted and 100's of others offer what you want. And you only expect it because every other manufacturer has it (which I don't think is the case with VERA)

Judging from Vera Control's home page and their Facebook, I would expect Vera not only to be a flying car, I would expect it to be a space shuttle. But it turns out the Vera is a car without speed meter, heating, air condition, windscreen wipers, gear stick, gas pedal and seats. The motor is maybe the best on the market, I don't know, because I can't really start the car. It may come as a surprise to you, but you don't know a product until you have used it. 

If you feel the same about VERA then get another home automation system that fits your needs (if you feel one exists).
At this point I don't think its like wifi and color monitor where we have 100's of better options out there. I don't think there currently is:
1) any comparable options in its price range
2) any with as much support (not just from micasaverde but the forums as probably 95% of everyone's answers come from here)
3) any with a wider range of devices (there is plugins and apps for almost everything)
4) any with a bigger customer/user base (every device I buy online reviews all come from Vera users)

Still, the Vera UI sucks. Other home automation systems might be better, or not. That doesn't change the fact that I and others feel the UI is crap. I'll give you that the plugin feature is a great idea, albeit spoiled by the overly complicated handling of some of them.

Shame on you for
1) not making Vera Better

But I am. By complaining. Complaints do matter. You may see me as annoying whiner, but I am an average user that thinks like other average users.

2) more importantly not moving to a device that fits your needs better (assuming you think it exists)

I bought Vera, not some other system. Do you seriously think that a user investing money in any system of any kind just would move on to investing money in another system? That's not how people work. People that buy a substandard product do complain.

And if you agree that there is not currently a better device to move to..... Well then we back to wishing that cars all flew and not that we have a color screen.

We're back to the fact that in 2014 you would expect your new car to have speed meter, heating, air condition, windscreen wipers, gear stick, gas pedal and seats. I would even go with a car without heating and air condition.

Luckily, I'm not the only one complaining or even thinking that the UI is substandard.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 09:38:31 am by AndreasE »

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2014, 11:13:47 am »
Luckily, I'm not the only one complaining or even thinking that the UI is substandard.

Well thank god for that. Hope your wining on a board that is not monitored by Micasaverde fixes all your problems.

I like the people that think buying the product and complaining about it is the solution to fix your problems. I'll just stand here an yell and someone will come fix it for me. It really just distracts the people who are working.

Micasaverde doesn't make any more money off you today, tomorrow, next week as it was a one time purchase. Complaining to a board of users is the same thing. Your better off running down your street and telling everyone that the UI sucks (but you still use it) and not to buy their product. You'll be just slightly more productive.

I personally would focus my efforts on fixing it or detailing what needs to be fixed and how it should be fixed. Posting it "Sucks" of its to basic.

99% of the time except for initial setup your not using the UI anyways. Your using an APP from your phone or tablet. A Polished UI is not high a heavy users list of accomplishments simply because it's not seen on a day to day.

Offline BlackNTan

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2014, 03:19:01 pm »
Quote
A Polished UI is not high a heavy users list of accomplishments simply because it's not seen on a day to day.

This is kind of a moot point.  You're right, it doesn't need "bling" blinking lights on and off, or a fantastical animated 3d UI.  However, it needs to be workable and allow you to create scenes easily,  quickly, and intuitively.  I've worked with this thing for a little while now and it consistently is upsetting when I run into roadblocks with just a simple AND and OR conditions.  Vera only does AND for some reason.  Look, there's a reason PLEG is so popular.  They need to look into WHY everyone is turning to PLEG for scenes and fix the UI accordingly.  I am a developer by trade, but would rather not have to turn to LUA in every scene I create. 

A simple scene to me would be not the  -- "if I see motion, turn on a light", but more like "If it's dark outside (Lux < 100) and motion is detected, turn on the light to 50% unless it's after 10pm where I only want the light to come on at 5%.  If the user turns off the switch while motion is still detected, disable the motion detector for 3 hours.  If they user changes the brightness level while motion is detected, leave the light on indefinitely.  I want to be able to do this all in one scene, which I can via LUA/LUUP.  I get it, Vera needs to provide a simple UI that anyone can understand "if I see motion, turn on a light", but we also need to be able to turn on an advanced mode which a power user can utilize to really make things fantastic and finally have a "smart" home.  Until then, users are still going to be turning to PLEG and calling the UI crap.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2014, 07:22:11 pm »
Quote
A Polished UI is not high a heavy users list of accomplishments simply because it's not seen on a day to day.

This is kind of a moot point.  You're right, it doesn't need "bling" blinking lights on and off, or a fantastical animated 3d UI.  However, it needs to be workable and allow you to create scenes easily,  quickly, and intuitively.  I've worked with this thing for a little while now and it consistently is upsetting when I run into roadblocks with just a simple AND and OR conditions.  Vera only does AND for some reason.  Look, there's a reason PLEG is so popular.  They need to look into WHY everyone is turning to PLEG for scenes and fix the UI accordingly.  I am a developer by trade, but would rather not have to turn to LUA in every scene I create. 

A simple scene to me would be not the  -- "if I see motion, turn on a light", but more like "If it's dark outside (Lux < 100) and motion is detected, turn on the light to 50% unless it's after 10pm where I only want the light to come on at 5%.  If the user turns off the switch while motion is still detected, disable the motion detector for 3 hours.  If they user changes the brightness level while motion is detected, leave the light on indefinitely.  I want to be able to do this all in one scene, which I can via LUA/LUUP.  I get it, Vera needs to provide a simple UI that anyone can understand "if I see motion, turn on a light", but we also need to be able to turn on an advanced mode which a power user can utilize to really make things fantastic and finally have a "smart" home.  Until then, users are still going to be turning to PLEG and calling the UI crap.

I guess I don't see the problem because I use PLEG. PLEG was not created by Micasaverde but its there for us to use and it gets the job done very well, but PLEG is complicated to most.

The situations you and I both use require LUA and PLEG because for those are complicated conditions. To think that Micasaverde are going to make 1 click buttons that magically make custom complicated conditions to fit everyones personal needs is not going to happen. Like I said even PLEG scares people away. You can create some really complex ideas that require alot of thought and testing just to get to run within all the conditions you want and not during times you don't.

This is where I think Micasaverde is drawing the line. They made a simple scene and gave you the basics. But myself and others want more. The people want it to be an easy few click deal, which is going to be near impossible for teh complex ideas people have now and will come up with.

Everyone wants a full size mansion but the average non-contractor Joe can only build a bird house on his own. And even then some times ends up with "extra parts"

Some DIY'ers can remodel their own house but not start from scratch.

Then you have the contractors that can build their own without even a slab.
 
Then the professionals with the same starting platform will make it look easy and get further along while the adv. Joe will struggle cus complain that it takes to long and is to hard and will still never end up building as big.   

160.00 VeraLite  can always be better and will slowly get a little bit better. But to assume the Adv. joe can do anything in with a few clicks of predetermined buttons all shown on 1 page manual is not expected by me. And I don't see this on any other home automation system either. You get closed system like Lowes IRIS for the same price and pay a monthly fee and tell them you bought a "Mimolite" or the like. Their answer we don't support it yet check back later end of conversation. Atleast we have PLEG, LUA and apps to make Plugins ourselfs.   

mios.cliff

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2014, 02:31:03 am »
Hi Vera Beta Testers:
My name is Cliff and I work primarily with Vera's web site and social media content, but just wanted to pop in here briefly and assure everyone that we are very interested in your comments, and that we really appreciate your help getting UI7's kinks worked out! Of course the features of UI7 are set at this point, but that's not to say your comments about future improvements are not taken seriously. We also appreciate your understanding of the tradeoffs between creating a product that's useful for our advanced users, versus a mass-market product that can introduce newcomers to the wonders of home control. It is a balancing act!

Also, we want to remind everyone that the beta release of UI7 at this point is still intended for your EXPERIMENTATION, and should not be installed in your "main" system. We know of at least one person who made this mistake, and don't want it to happen to anyone else. If you don't have an extra "spare" Veralite or Vera3 Controller to experiment with, please wait for the public release version of UI7, which will be available at the end of June.

Thank you for your help and patience!
-Cliff Roth
Vera Social Marketing Manager
cliff@getvera.com

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2014, 03:41:40 am »
Hi Vera Beta Testers:
My name is Cliff and I work primarily with Vera's web site and social media content, but just wanted to pop in here briefly and assure everyone that we are very interested in your comments, and that we really appreciate your help getting UI7's kinks worked out! Of course the features of UI7 are set at this point, but that's not to say your comments about future improvements are not taken seriously. We also appreciate your understanding of the tradeoffs between creating a product that's useful for our advanced users, versus a mass-market product that can introduce newcomers to the wonders of home control. It is a balancing act!

Also, we want to remind everyone that the beta release of UI7 at this point is still intended for your EXPERIMENTATION, and should not be installed in your "main" system. We know of at least one person who made this mistake, and don't want it to happen to anyone else. If you don't have an extra "spare" Veralite or Vera3 Controller to experiment with, please wait for the public release version of UI7, which will be available at the end of June.

Thank you for your help and patience!
-Cliff Roth
Vera Social Marketing Manager
cliff@getvera.com

Thanks for taking the time to pop in and say hi. We do appreciate whats going into the product and hope you continue to improve in a timely manner.

Offline kelpayne

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2014, 10:47:41 am »
Interesting.  If the public release version of UI7 will actually be available at the end of June, I would have expected a few point releases to the beta to evaluate all the fixes along the way.

Offline CMRancho

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2014, 12:20:35 pm »
Interesting.  If the public release version of UI7 will actually be available at the end of June, I would have expected a few point releases to the beta to evaluate all the fixes along the way.
Oh, you probably thought he meant June 2014. That's an understandable mistake.  ;)
Vera123beta; Schlage, Kwikset, TZEMT400; Linksys cams, Smarteye cams, HSM100; Aeon, Everspring, Cooper, Leviton, Intermatic, FortrezZ, Global Caché, USB-UIRT, Somfy, etc.

Offline kelpayne

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2014, 02:19:22 pm »
Point taken.   ;)

Offline lolodomo

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2014, 04:04:46 pm »
Now that the public release date is approaching, I have 2 fundamental questions:

Is lua code still possible in scenes with UI7 ?

Is it still possible in UI7 to install plugins (developped in lua) ?

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2014, 06:21:36 pm »
Oh, you probably thought he meant June 2014. That's an understandable mistake.  ;)

Ahahaha ;D

Offline SirMeili

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2014, 07:44:27 pm »
Is it still possible in UI7 to install plugins (developped in lua) ?

Forgive my ignorance, but are you saying that you can't install any plugins now? I know some of them work in UI6, but is there none working in UI7 or is it just there is no way to "install" them (no app store)?
VeraLite (Live); ISY 994i (Live); Vera 3 (Waiting to replace VeraLite); Vera Edge (Waiting for all the bugs to be fixed); Xuan StackBox (Testing and waiting for more plugins and for it to mature)
Countless z-wave and insteon devices :D

Offline gengen

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2014, 01:01:52 am »
I've been working with UI7 and have already filed several bug reports and have received a response that my feedback "has not gone unnoticed."

Quote
Is lua code still possible in scenes with UI7 ?
There is no Lua scene capability in the current UI7 beta firmware! See my response below.

Quote
Is it still possible in UI7 to install plugins (developped in lua) ?
In the current beta firmware, Lua plug-ins can still be used although some of the documented JavaScript API's have some serious bugs.

This said, here is an abridged version of a letter which I sent to them dealing with high-level UI7 issues.

I have spent a significant amount of time porting my plug-ins and filing bugs that I found along the way. I would like to use this email to discuss higher level issues which Vera Control Ltd. really needs to address.
  • Lack of developer documentation and support. There have been ZERO updates to http://wiki.micasaverde.com since the public beta announcement on April 15 regarding UI7 ? or anything else for that matter. Certainly there?s a lot for developers to know oh how to customize plug-ins for the new GUI. For my own part, I?ve had to stumble around, reading lots of JavaScript and example JSON files which gave me vague clues as to what I needed to do to make things work. Please update the documentation!
  • Please bring back Lua scene scripting. This is missing in the current UI7 beta firmware and is really what enables Vera?s more powerful automation features. The new modes handle a few but by no means all (or even most) of the applications for Lua scripting.
  • The new UI7 GUI layout is arguably worse than that in UI5. Device tiles take up more space.  There needs to be a good equivalent to the UI5 dashboard Overview tab which shows the status of lots of devices on one screen at a glance, each device taking minimal space. The UI7 device control panels are horrible to work with. Having the (>) controls on the far-right of the page with the names on the left with lots of white space in between does not make for a nice user experience.
  • The new scene creation wizard  is still quite clunky. Although there is an attempt to lower the learning curve by organizing sequentially the decisions which you need to make to create a new scene, even once you understand the steps in making a new scene, the fundamentals have not changed since UI5 (other than adding mode filters ? and removing Lua scripting.) and arguably makes thing more tedius since there are now more steps to do.
    • Linking a controller to a light still requires at least two scenes ? an ?On? scene and an ?Off? scene. One of the nice things about products such as the competing Insteon Hub is that a single scene can be used to turn things on and off. This is a big issue since it effectively doubles the amount of work that you need to do when setting up common scene tasks ? and proportionally, the number of mistakes that you can make.
    • Scenes cannot be triggered by mode changes. Although they can be filtered to only run in certain modes, transitioning to or from a given mode should also be able to automatically trigger a scene.
    • The ?Device? icon in the triggers selection is confusing as being a way to select devices triggering a scene as opposed to the devices controlled by a scene. Changing the name to something like ?Device triggers? and perhaps using more descriptive, less ?flat? icons would help. (Is that thing supposed to be a motion sensor?)
    • Lack of Lua scene scripting! (Have I mentioned this a couple of times already?)
  • Better custom Z-Wave device support. At the very least we need a good way for a Lua device plug-in to receive data from a Z-Wave device which is not otherwise understood by Vera. Today, Luup has a SendData command for sending data to a device, but no adequate receive mechanism.
  • Is Vera giving up on Insteon support? Having a single controller which can bridge the worlds of Z-Wave, Insteon, (and Zigbee and UPB and?) networks. Already in UI5, Insteon support was mediocre and was largely overtaken by the Altsteon project (which has its own problems.)

Thanks for listening

Gengen

Offline Gklmdawson

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2014, 05:05:06 am »
I also noticed there was no way to change the current mode in a scene. Maybe I missed it but I really liked the idea of switching to home mode when I unlock my door.

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Offline lionelandjen

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Re: Vera UI7 Beta Program
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2014, 12:25:52 pm »
I, for one, am very, very much looking forward to UI7.

I'm a sys admin, so I want to think that I could learn lua if I wanted to.  but I already work 50+ hours/week, and with a family, to boot, I just don't have the time to tackle this.

all I want is something that JUST WORKS and is easy to configure because I just don't have the time to go behind the scenes and dink around with a new programming language. the few screenshots I saw of the IU7 prototype looks like just what the doctor ordered.

and now that AAPL has come out with their own take on home automation, I'm certainly hoping Vera beats them to the punch and launches a UI7 that does everything AAPL is thinking of, only on multiple platforms, including through a browser.