Author Topic: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!  (Read 13725 times)

Offline farang

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UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« on: December 11, 2014, 02:52:42 am »
I'm sorry to say but I think the UI7 experiment is a gigant mistake going in the wrong direction.

MCV, when the day comes that You can say

  • UI7 is faster and more stable than previous versions
  • UI7 offers an enhanced experience for our customers
  • We are proud over UI7
  • UI7 doesn't have any serious bugs and has undergone extensive Beta testing

Then it would be a good time to bring the UI7 version to the market.

I WILL RETURN MY NEW VERA EDGE TO THE STORE TODAY.

My simple advice for MCV: Revert UI7. Go back to UI5 and make it run on new hardware.

Agree with me? please click [applaud]
Disagree with me? please click [smite]

Offline lkh11lkh

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2014, 06:06:20 am »
hi

I believed every hardware products need R&D on their software program.
it is maimly good for their future services & performances of vera product.

if vera do continue to configure on every vera hardware unit thru forced upgrade firmware to UI7 whenever 1st timer connected to internet, its really pissed off new & existing users of vera

if vera do not force upgrade firmware for each new hardware connected to internet
1. vera support still can continue to R&D their software
2. new & existing users of vera will continued to use UI5 as basic platform
3. less complain more time to R&D, good image & reputation for vera product
4. the option to upgrade is open to all & not by forced upgrade thru mcv

:)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:13:41 am by lkh11lkh »

Offline Stuart

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2014, 08:49:46 am »
My 2c
1. UI7 MAY be a step in the right direction - it's hard to tell because much of the potential improvements are somewhat 'invisible'
2. The UI is OK but mainly just a bit 'fresher' looking - does not seem to contain much by way of usability enhancements - needs considerable improvement in responsiveness.
3. This is DEFINITELY not production ready and has no business as the default for new unit sales and new users - fine for those who do not mind experimenting (by choice)

Offline farang

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 05:06:55 am »
My 2c
1. UI7 MAY be a step in the right direction - it's hard to tell because much of the potential improvements are somewhat 'invisible'
2. The UI is OK but mainly just a bit 'fresher' looking - does not seem to contain much by way of usability enhancements - needs considerable improvement in responsiveness.
3. This is DEFINITELY not production ready and has no business as the default for new unit sales and new users - fine for those who do not mind experimenting (by choice)

I should know better than trying UI7 on my only Vera.

I could not benefit from any "invisible improvements" since there was just too many bugs.

Now my VeraEdge is returned to the store. Maybe someone else will buy it. Let's hope the new owner is willing to experiment with UI7.

I'm back on UI5 on a Vera3 and I'm so happy that everything just works.

I PLEAD with MCV to abondon further development of UI7. There is a simple solotion. Revert back to the stable UI5, to the time and point of development before everything started to go in the wrong direction. Then make the necessary changes to make UI5 run on VeraEdge. We (your loyal customers) will reward you. Your support department will be accessible again. And PLEASE before you consider releasing new software, release it to the BETA testers group first and don't rush things. We don't want that. We are the one buing your products so please listen to us.



Offline farang

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 05:01:38 am »
What is worse, I believe MCV can render UI5 unusable by simply turning of the external login servers. Even if I only login locally there will be an unacceptable huge delay when logging in if the external login servers are turned off/inaccessible. I guess I will need a plan in case that happens because I don't want to become a UI7 Beta Tester. I'm very happy with PLEG  and I'd hate the idea to reimplement all my logics.




Marc Shenker

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 12:37:10 pm »
@Farang We have no intention of intentionally rendering your controller or UI5 unstable. We are not going to force you to upgrade.

Offline clippermiami

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 02:22:52 pm »
My 2c
1. UI7 MAY be a step in the right direction - it's hard to tell because much of the potential improvements are somewhat 'invisible'
2. The UI is OK but mainly just a bit 'fresher' looking - does not seem to contain much by way of usability enhancements - needs considerable improvement in responsiveness.
3. This is DEFINITELY not production ready and has no business as the default for new unit sales and new users - fine for those who do not mind experimenting (by choice)

I should know better than trying UI7 on my only Vera.

I could not benefit from any "invisible improvements" since there was just too many bugs.

Now my VeraEdge is returned to the store. Maybe someone else will buy it. Let's hope the new owner is willing to experiment with UI7.

I'm back on UI5 on a Vera3 and I'm so happy that everything just works.

I PLEAD with MCV to abondon further development of UI7. There is a simple solotion. Revert back to the stable UI5, to the time and point of development before everything started to go in the wrong direction. Then make the necessary changes to make UI5 run on VeraEdge. We (your loyal customers) will reward you. Your support department will be accessible again. And PLEASE before you consider releasing new software, release it to the BETA testers group first and don't rush things. We don't want that. We are the one buing your products so please listen to us.

I can't say I've been hugely impressed with UI7 either. From an appearance standpoint it is very wasteful of space, especially when compared to UI5. That said, few if any of us have much way to know what REAL improvements in the internals have been made ... The Plug In developers have the closest view of it and I'd guess they are still in the dark about improvements in the internal handling.

But hopefully when UI7 does "burst upon the marketplace completed and in all its glory" we will all wonder how we got along without it :-)

My greatest concern, and something that may not be possible to fix in the current architecture, it's LuaUPnP. I have two Vera 3 units, one with all the ZWAVE devices and the other with TWO significant Plug Ins, the DSC Alarm and the Blue Iris interface. NEITHER Vera runs at less than 100% memory for LuaUPnP and as we all know by now over 100% is a harbinger of system instability.

My ZWave Vera has about 50 devices attached and some PLEGS and it runs at 108% with only that installed. The other Vera with DSC/Blue Iris runs at 118% and I've removed everything that I can.

The bottom line is that I think the design of LuaUPnP is a serious problem to the stability and extensibility off this product. Neither of my Vera uses even 75% of the installed memory and they are both tapped out. I have mou way to know what the actual CPU usage is, Event Watcher says it's never les than 80% but Tech SUPPORT tells me that's wrong so I'm at a loss.

My humble opinion is that UI7 should have been a complete architectural change to get away from the design of LuaUPnP. But it is what it is.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:37:51 pm by clippermiami »
Two Vera Plus UI7 Linked via HTTP, 90+ Devices. PlugIns: PLEG, DSC, Blue Iris, MySensors,  AutoVera, ImperiHome, VeraAlerts, EventWatcher

Offline TC1

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 03:08:22 pm »
My 2c
1. UI7 MAY be a step in the right direction - it's hard to tell because much of the potential improvements are somewhat 'invisible'
2. The UI is OK but mainly just a bit 'fresher' looking - does not seem to contain much by way of usability enhancements - needs considerable improvement in responsiveness.
3. This is DEFINITELY not production ready and has no business as the default for new unit sales and new users - fine for those who do not mind experimenting (by choice)

I should know better than trying UI7 on my only Vera.

I could not benefit from any "invisible improvements" since there was just too many bugs.

Now my VeraEdge is returned to the store. Maybe someone else will buy it. Let's hope the new owner is willing to experiment with UI7.

I'm back on UI5 on a Vera3 and I'm so happy that everything just works.

I PLEAD with MCV to abondon further development of UI7. There is a simple solotion. Revert back to the stable UI5, to the time and point of development before everything started to go in the wrong direction. Then make the necessary changes to make UI5 run on VeraEdge. We (your loyal customers) will reward you. Your support department will be accessible again. And PLEASE before you consider releasing new software, release it to the BETA testers group first and don't rush things. We don't want that. We are the one buing your products so please listen to us.

I can't say I've been hugely impressed with UI7 either. From an appearance standpoint it is very wasteful of space, especially when compared to UI5. That said, few if any of us have much way to know what REAL improvements in the internals have been made ... The Plug In developers have the closest view of it and I'd guess they are still in the dark about improvements in the internal handling.

But hopefully when UI7 does "burst upon the marketplace completed and in all its glory" we will all wonder how we got along without it :-)

My greatest concern, and something that may not be possible to fix in the current architecture, it's LuaUPnP. I have two Vera 3 units, one with all the ZWAVE devices and the other with TWO significant Plug Ins, the DSC Alarm and the Blue Iris interface. NEITHER Vera runs at less than 100% memory for LuaUPnP and as we all know by now over 100% is a harbinger of system instability.

My ZWave Vera has about 50 devices attached and some PLEGS and it runs at 108% with only that installed. The other Vera with DSC/Blue Iris runs at 118% and I've removed everything that I can.

The bottom line is that I think the design of LuaUPnP is a serious problem to the stability and extensibility off this product. Neither of my Vera uses even 75% of the installed memory and they are both tapped out. I have mou way to know what the actual CPU usage is, Event Watcher says it's never les than 80% but Tech SUPPORT tells me that's wrong so I'm at a loss.

My humble opinion is that UI7 should have been a complete architectural change to get away from the design of LuaUPnP. But it is what it is.

How about this other possibility... there's nothing wrong (per se) with LuaUPnP for HA work, but rather, how MCV has implemented it on the limited hardware platform they have chosen.

FYI, Fibaro also uses Lua for their HC2 controller.

Offline clippermiami

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 03:13:59 pm »
My 2c
1. UI7 MAY be a step in the right direction - it's hard to tell because much of the potential improvements are somewhat 'invisible'
2. The UI is OK but mainly just a bit 'fresher' looking - does not seem to contain much by way of usability enhancements - needs considerable improvement in responsiveness.
3. This is DEFINITELY not production ready and has no business as the default for new unit sales and new users - fine for those who do not mind experimenting (by choice)

I should know better than trying UI7 on my only Vera.

I could not benefit from any "invisible improvements" since there was just too many bugs.

Now my VeraEdge is returned to the store. Maybe someone else will buy it. Let's hope the new owner is willing to experiment with UI7.

I'm back on UI5 on a Vera3 and I'm so happy that everything just works.

I PLEAD with MCV to abondon further development of UI7. There is a simple solotion. Revert back to the stable UI5, to the time and point of development before everything started to go in the wrong direction. Then make the necessary changes to make UI5 run on VeraEdge. We (your loyal customers) will reward you. Your support department will be accessible again. And PLEASE before you consider releasing new software, release it to the BETA testers group first and don't rush things. We don't want that. We are the one buing your products so please listen to us.

I can't say I've been hugely impressed with UI7 either. From an appearance standpoint it is very wasteful of space, especially when compared to UI5. That said, few if any of us have much way to know what REAL improvements in the internals have been made ... The Plug In developers have the closest view of it and I'd guess they are still in the dark about improvements in the internal handling.

But hopefully when UI7 does "burst upon the marketplace completed and in all its glory" we will all wonder how we got along without it :-)

My greatest concern, and something that may not be possible to fix in the current architecture, it's LuaUPnP. I have two Vera 3 units, one with all the ZWAVE devices and the other with TWO significant Plug Ins, the DSC Alarm and the Blue Iris interface. NEITHER Vera runs at less than 100% memory for LuaUPnP and as we all know by now over 100% is a harbinger of system instability.

My ZWave Vera has about 50 devices attached and some PLEGS and it runs at 108% with only that installed. The other Vera with DSC/Blue Iris runs at 118% and I've removed everything that I can.

The bottom line is that I think the design of LuaUPnP is a serious problem to the stability and extensibility off this product. Neither of my Vera uses even 75% of the installed memory and they are both tapped out. I have mou way to know what the actual CPU usage is, Event Watcher says it's never les than 80% but Tech SUPPORT tells me that's wrong so I'm at a loss.

My humble opinion is that UI7 should have been a complete architectural change to get away from the design of LuaUPnP. But it is what it is.

How about this other possibility... there's nothing wrong (per se) with LuaUPnP for HA work, but rather, how MCV has implemented it on the limited hardware platform they have chosen.

FYI, Fibaro also uses Lua for their HC2 controller.

Perhaps I want clear, but I agree, it's the design of USD, the implementation
Two Vera Plus UI7 Linked via HTTP, 90+ Devices. PlugIns: PLEG, DSC, Blue Iris, MySensors,  AutoVera, ImperiHome, VeraAlerts, EventWatcher

Offline RichardTSchaefer

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 04:52:09 pm »
LUA is not the problem.

At one time LuaUPNP had a couple of threads ... and they ran into dead-lock problems.
At some time in UI4 or maybe as part of UI5 they went to TWO-Threads per plugin (devices that do not have a controlling device).
Some where in between would be more appropriate for a memory constrained system. They should have a thread-pool with a max of two threads being assigned per plugin.
The total thread count could and memory would be greatly reduced.

There are problems in the C++ code inside LuaUPnP ... they need better diagnostics when LuaUPnP crashes as well as reporting to the server so the details of each and every crash can analyzed and categorized. It's true that plugins can cause a crash ... but without diagnostics from a crash there is no way to really find and correct these problems.

Maybe an internal round-robin detailed log that captures the most recent events leading up to the crash which is dumped only as a result of the crash.

If we can't identify what's broke it's going to be very difficult to fix.


Offline BOFH

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 05:14:42 pm »
I unfortunately cannot see GetVera abandoning UI7 as they already have put to much development effort, both time and money, into it. I do agree that the current iteration is on about a Windows Vista level of reliability, compatibility and stability. But Vista morphed into Windows 7 which fixed those issues. I'm hoping UI7.1 will will appear and perform a similar feat.

Although I am pretty sure GetVera has ceased UI5 development, I'm also pretty sure they would not kill the cp.mios.com login servers and alienate a large part of their user base.

I would have preferred UI7 to have been more stable and more backwards compatible with UI5 but I can see where market forces may have prompted getvera to release it earlier and less polished than desired.

 
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Offline clippermiami

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 05:54:58 pm »
LUA is not the problem.

At one time LuaUPNP had a couple of threads ... and they ran into dead-lock problems.
At some time in UI4 or maybe as part of UI5 they went to TWO-Threads per plugin (devices that do not have a controlling device).
Some where in between would be more appropriate for a memory constrained system. They should have a thread-pool with a max of two threads being assigned per plugin.
The total thread count could and memory would be greatly reduced.

There are problems in the C++ code inside LuaUPnP ... they need better diagnostics when LuaUPnP crashes as well as reporting to the server so the details of each and every crash can analyzed and categorized. It's true that plugins can cause a crash ... but without diagnostics from a crash there is no way to really find and correct these problems.

Maybe an internal round-robin detailed log that captures the most recent events leading up to the crash which is dumped only as a result of the crash.

If we can't identify what's broke it's going to be very difficult to fix.

Thanks, a little better understanding is always useful.

But I think that ir is highly unlikely that UI7 is going to fix a problem that few if any seem to recognize exists let alone understand.

As to memory constraint I don't see it. As I said, my Veras never come close to the internal memory available and i'm will to bet that they don't approach max CPU either. But the DESIGN of LuaUPnP  appears to be s a bottleneck, everything is jammed into it  ... which I THINK you have agreed with. 
Two Vera Plus UI7 Linked via HTTP, 90+ Devices. PlugIns: PLEG, DSC, Blue Iris, MySensors,  AutoVera, ImperiHome, VeraAlerts, EventWatcher

Marc Shenker

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 06:38:59 pm »
A lot has been said here. If you have concerns about us turning off the servers, please don't. We still have users using UI4 on Vera2s.

In order to continue adding new features and functionality that is necessary for us to remain viable in the market place to the platform we had to change some of the underlying architecture. We know that there are bugs and the Development Team and Technical Support chase them down and prioritize getting them fixed as quickly as possible. We have been putting out firmware updates monthly that add a couple of feature additions and many bug fixes.

We need your help in identifying those problems. If you are experiencing a problem please fill out a support ticket at http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/emails/new and then message or email me so I can get your ticket prioritized.

We are dedicated resolving your issues and I am a conduit that you can use to communicate your issues, problems, requests... etc through to Vera. I have been empowered to chase down whomever holds the information or resource necessary. 

Offline tomgru

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 10:42:58 am »
A lot has been said here. If you have concerns about us turning off the servers, please don't. We still have users using UI4 on Vera2s.

In order to continue adding new features and functionality that is necessary for us to remain viable in the market place to the platform we had to change some of the underlying architecture. We know that there are bugs and the Development Team and Technical Support chase them down and prioritize getting them fixed as quickly as possible. We have been putting out firmware updates monthly that add a couple of feature additions and many bug fixes.

We need your help in identifying those problems. If you are experiencing a problem please fill out a support ticket at http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/emails/new and then message or email me so I can get your ticket prioritized.

We are dedicated resolving your issues and I am a conduit that you can use to communicate your issues, problems, requests... etc through to Vera. I have been empowered to chase down whomever holds the information or resource necessary.

I will say this... it's been great seeing you (Mark) all over the forums today!

Marc Shenker

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Re: UI7 - MCV, Realize now that this is not what we want!
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 07:06:56 pm »
A lot has been said here. If you have concerns about us turning off the servers, please don't. We still have users using UI4 on Vera2s.

In order to continue adding new features and functionality that is necessary for us to remain viable in the market place to the platform we had to change some of the underlying architecture. We know that there are bugs and the Development Team and Technical Support chase them down and prioritize getting them fixed as quickly as possible. We have been putting out firmware updates monthly that add a couple of feature additions and many bug fixes.

We need your help in identifying those problems. If you are experiencing a problem please fill out a support ticket at http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/emails/new and then message or email me so I can get your ticket prioritized.

We are dedicated resolving your issues and I am a conduit that you can use to communicate your issues, problems, requests... etc through to Vera. I have been empowered to chase down whomever holds the information or resource necessary.

I will say this... it's been great seeing you (Mark) all over the forums today!

Thanks tomgru I assume that you mean me, Marc not Mark.

I'm charged to get things done for this community. Someone wished today for the Advanced Scene Editor to be added to UI7. Done, I tracked down the right person, hopefully it will be in the March update.

Tell me what you need and I'll do my best to get it done.