We have moved at community.getvera.com

Author Topic: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email  (Read 88382 times)

Offline ServiceXp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
  • Karma: +9/-6
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2015, 07:16:45 am »
I should add, it doesn't appear that its just the Plug-in Devs or even the "Power Users" that are unhappy with the direction Vera Control Lts is going. just take a look at the reviews on Amazon.. (2.3 rating for the Edge...) (which for some reason seem ridiculously hard to find on Amazon)

 
U.S.A Vera 3

Offline chixxi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1036
  • Karma: +37/-14
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2015, 07:34:45 am »
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.
I do not see my self as one of the key-developers like garret or richard, but I never got this eMail either. From other companies I get free devices without having to ask, even before they hit the market just for saying "I might develop something".

You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.
There was more than one, in my opinion (i.e @Ap15e and @chris)

I didn't stop to work on my plugins to put pressure on Vera Ltd., my plugins are not important enough for that. But I just don't see a future with vera, so from where should I take the motivation. As you can see we were already raging almost 3 years ahead of today, Micasverde ingored us so long why should I believe in you now?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 07:38:48 am by chixxi »
Developer of Plugins: Virtual Switch, Variable Container, Popcorn Hour Remote, Vacation Ghost. => PLUGINS HAVE BEEN UNPUBLISHED BY ME.

Offline RexBeckett

  • Beta Testers
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3891
  • Karma: +483/-13
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2015, 07:49:48 am »
I didn't get an email either. My ten plugins are not, perhaps, major enablers for Vera but I would like to think some of my guides have been useful to newcomers.

If Garrett doesn't qualify as an MCV-recognized developer, I wonder what the criteria can be.
 

Offline guessed

  • Community Beta
  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5301
  • Karma: +92/-22
  • Release compat is not a bolted-on afterthought
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2015, 11:44:38 am »
Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

As stated at the top of this thread I responded privately to the Developer Email, and resisted posting to this thread.  Out of courtesy, my response was sent to the "original author" of the Developer email, CC your CTO, and was given within 1-2 hrs of the email's original receipt.

No response so far.

Hardware, whilst problematic for some, isn't the Primary issue at stake here.  As outlined in that email, there are serious issues including (but not limited to) a few key areas I discussed face-to-face with both your CTO & President about 3 yrs ago, c. UI5 rollout.

To quote a small section of it:

Quote from: guessed
... backward compatibility, stability of the platform and overall communications are the key items to retaining Developers on the platform

If you're not providing these core Product deliverables then I don't think it's reasonable to waste the time of community members with expectations of what, when or if volunteer members will deliver anything atop the stack.

Many developers are now well beyond the throw hardware at them solutions used c. 4-6yrs ago - especially when the new platforms offer no material benefit to a developer-scale deployment... frequently a leading indicator of what the wider community will benefit from. 

Also, throwing hardware into a void with no publicised plan, obvious functional regressions and then not responding to issues & questions raised is unlikely to net you the result you're looking for.

So far all we've seen here are words (sometimes impassioned words) but you're only going to get credibility for things delivered and not for things said and, at this time, the only thing we have to judge by is the overall release of UI6 & UI7 (more significant regressions than even UI5, poor communications, vague demands made upon your community to make up for issues in the stack & delivery process)

I look forward to seeing the remedial action list that you develop but, for some, it'll be too little too late.


BTW: If you want a sense for what's been discussed in the past, find the [private] Beta thread entitled "Latest on Vera Pro" c. Jan 2011.  I'll quote a tiny part of that thread, where many of the senior forum members discussed requirements:

b) Go overboard on memory. 32M isn't enough, 128M isn't enough...
I'd like enough memory to never have to run into that as a "reason" one or more of my current/future devices don't work correctly, and enough that Linux has "so much headroom" for memory leaks that we'll never see them in reality.

It's going to be more about the memory size of the Plugins, than the devices themselves, but anything wanting to be "fast" will likely pull a bunch of stuff into memory in order to operate locally, without hitting the Network all the time.

I'd also like to be able to run like my Alarm, I haven't "restarted" it in over 18 months and it's run continuously available during that time.

and shortly thereafter:
Quote from: guessed
Ultimately, if the box really doesn't handle what we all need, then people will vote with their feet.... and it's always possible for us to write "the last plugin" that integrates the ZWave bits, managed by Vera, into some larger and/or more capable HA Device.


It's 2015, 4yrs later, and the next next-generation platform is still at 128M... and the issues are piling up, and we're doing exactly what I said we'd do.  These requirements have certainly been discussed before, and there's clearly been adequate notice.... and this is just on the HW side of things.

Offline bucko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Karma: +27/-9
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2015, 12:25:53 pm »
First give. me a minute to get my foot out of my mouth......

Ok, now I must apologize for my over zealous remark I made after MCV announced Dev support, appointment of MCV spokesman in this forum, etc.etc. Looks like "duped again" applies here.

MCV, you just keep bending your customers over and over. Shame on you deceiving people directly on this very forum.

I am surprised that after your promises made, we learn devs have not been contacted at all. I call BS on the wait until next month after we had our CES meetings. Load of crap I'm afraid. MCV really does not get it. Looks like to me Vera is a sinking ship and it's time to bail.

I looks like at this point, OpenHab may be worth the effort to look into. Shame on you MCV!
Vera 3, 40+ Fibaro relays & dimmers, IPUX cams, Elk M1 Gold, M1XEP, M1SP, XVOR, M1RB, Elk124, Monoprice HDMI matrix & 6 zone amp, Denon AVR, Panasonic A8000, BI DV,On Controls

Offline Colin Burke McClure

  • SVP Product & Innovation
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +32/-17
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2015, 01:28:24 pm »
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.

I've known from past experience that I'll believe it when I see it too many broken promises, beta testers not being used to their full potential, and bugs / issues left being not fixed for a long period of time.

With quite a few of the long time developers / supporters in this community looking else where, you have a lot to loose.  You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.

- Garrett

@ Garrett we hear you guys loud and clear. You're a critical piece of the puzzle and we've clearly done a piss poor job of communicating and supporting you guys of late. I'm not going to over promise and under deliver; it is not going to be an "instant" fix, but we are committed and focused to getting this addressed, quickly.

Regarding dev samples, you were on that distribution list, so you should have received that email last month. I'll resend via MailChimp this afternoon so I've got delivery confirmation for each of you and can accurately track this moving forward. Shoot me your ship to address via email and I'll get yours shipped out today.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:30:17 pm by Colin Burke McClure »
Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
SVP Product & Innovation

MiOS  *  Puts You in Control
www.mios.com  *  colin@mios.com  *  +1 (888) 510-6467

Offline Colin Burke McClure

  • SVP Product & Innovation
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +32/-17
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2015, 01:49:29 pm »
Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

As stated at the top of this thread I responded privately to the Developer Email, and resisted posting to this thread.  Out of courtesy, my response was sent to the "original author" of the Developer email, CC your CTO, and was given within 1-2 hrs of the email's original receipt.

No response so far.

Hardware, whilst problematic for some, isn't the Primary issue at stake here.  As outlined in that email, there are serious issues including (but not limited to) a few key areas I discussed face-to-face with both your CTO & President about 3 yrs ago, c. UI5 rollout.

To quote a small section of it:

Quote from: guessed
... backward compatibility, stability of the platform and overall communications are the key items to retaining Developers on the platform

If you're not providing these core Product deliverables then I don't think it's reasonable to waste the time of community members with expectations of what, when or if volunteer members will deliver anything atop the stack.

Many developers are now well beyond the throw hardware at them solutions used c. 4-6yrs ago - especially when the new platforms offer no material benefit to a developer-scale deployment... frequently a leading indicator of what the wider community will benefit from. 

Also, throwing hardware into a void with no publicised plan, obvious functional regressions and then not responding to issues & questions raised is unlikely to net you the result you're looking for.

So far all we've seen here are words (sometimes impassioned words) but you're only going to get credibility for things delivered and not for things said and, at this time, the only thing we have to judge by is the overall release of UI6 & UI7 (more significant regressions than even UI5, poor communications, vague demands made upon your community to make up for issues in the stack & delivery process)

I look forward to seeing the remedial action list that you develop but, for some, it'll be too little too late.


BTW: If you want a sense for what's been discussed in the past, find the [private] Beta thread entitled "Latest on Vera Pro" c. Jan 2011.  I'll quote a tiny part of that thread, where many of the senior forum members discussed requirements:

b) Go overboard on memory. 32M isn't enough, 128M isn't enough...
I'd like enough memory to never have to run into that as a "reason" one or more of my current/future devices don't work correctly, and enough that Linux has "so much headroom" for memory leaks that we'll never see them in reality.

It's going to be more about the memory size of the Plugins, than the devices themselves, but anything wanting to be "fast" will likely pull a bunch of stuff into memory in order to operate locally, without hitting the Network all the time.

I'd also like to be able to run like my Alarm, I haven't "restarted" it in over 18 months and it's run continuously available during that time.

and shortly thereafter:
Quote from: guessed
Ultimately, if the box really doesn't handle what we all need, then people will vote with their feet.... and it's always possible for us to write "the last plugin" that integrates the ZWave bits, managed by Vera, into some larger and/or more capable HA Device.


It's 2015, 4yrs later, and the next next-generation platform is still at 128M... and the issues are piling up, and we're doing exactly what I said we'd do.  These requirements have certainly been discussed before, and there's clearly been adequate notice.... and this is just on the HW side of things.

@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.
Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
SVP Product & Innovation

MiOS  *  Puts You in Control
www.mios.com  *  colin@mios.com  *  +1 (888) 510-6467

Offline RichardTSchaefer

  • Community Beta
  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10091
  • Karma: +764/-143
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2015, 02:14:37 pm »
I don't want hardware ... I want the reported bugs fixed.
After all of these years you still do not have a defect tracking system that the user community can enter/track and see progress or lack there of.

Note: I also did not receive the email. Maybe it still in the out box.

Many things have been addressed by my emails.
But I have no feedback on others. And even a regression on a previous fix in the last release.

What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.

Offline Colin Burke McClure

  • SVP Product & Innovation
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +32/-17
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2015, 02:28:03 pm »
I didn't receive any email regarding a VeraEdge either. I just assumed that although Vera wanted my plug-ins to be ported to UI7, that my overall contributions were not considered sufficient for me to receive a free development platform on which to do so. At my normal billable  rates, I'd estimate I've made at least a $25,000 (USD) investment of my time in Vera, but I guess that's not enough to for Vera to invest the ~$150 (probably much less, at cost) it would take to send me a UI7 device. (Of course, I might also just be on the s**t list for starting this thread :)

Anyway, at this point I'm not particularly worried. Given the previous discussion, its starting to make more sense to put in the effort to port my plug-ins to OpenHAB, rather than UI7. At the very least, I have multiple OpenHAB capable devices, as opposed to my one Vera UI[5-7] capable device.

Hugh

Ha! You're hardly on the s**t list @Hugh. Quite the contrary. We're not adverse to challenging or vigorous discourse, at all. As I've said, more than once, the reason that we all get so riled up is that we are passionate and we care. That's a great "problem" to have, collectively. Looking forward to having you as part of the Client Advisory Board too Hugh.

Same message as to @Garrett, shoot me you ship to address this morning and I'll get your controller sent out today. No sweat.
Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
SVP Product & Innovation

MiOS  *  Puts You in Control
www.mios.com  *  colin@mios.com  *  +1 (888) 510-6467

Offline garrettwp

  • Master Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6371
  • Karma: +227/-128
  • Vera 3, Lite, ISY994
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2015, 02:28:17 pm »
I don't want hardware ... I want the reported bugs fixed.
After all of these years you still do not have a defect tracking system that the user community can enter/track and see progress or lack there of.

Note: I also did not receive the email. Maybe it still in the out box.

Many things have been addressed by my emails.
But I have no feedback on others. And even a regression on a previous fix in the last release.

What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.
Could not have said it better.

- Garrett


Offline BOFH

  • Sr. Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2409
  • Karma: +112/-140
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2015, 02:33:05 pm »
Yeah, Telguard sent me a beta of their GDO device to test based a question on compatibility and on my work on adding Craftsman support to the MyQ plugin but AFAIK no one in that MyQ group got the email either. That plugin is a shining example of the kind of effort this community can generate and produce a valuable plugin. Macrho started it, with assistance from at least guessed. I added Craftsman support to it and then provided info to Kornev and JoeyD on gate openers and lights when they reworked the logic to make it more stable and added a user friendly configuration interface.

Image what other projects could materialize with a little support from GetVera?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:35:01 pm by BOFH »
Vera3 UI5 UI7 Edge Plus
Trane TZEMT400AB32 | Schlage BE369 FE599 | GE 45601 45602 45603 45604 45606 45609 45631 | Intermatic HA01C HA03C HA05C HA07C CA600 CA3000 | Aeon DSC06106 | Telguard GDC1 | Foscam FI8910W FI8905W FI9821W | D-Link 930L | Wanscam JW0011 | ZModo ZPIBH13W

Offline guessed

  • Community Beta
  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5301
  • Karma: +92/-22
  • Release compat is not a bolted-on afterthought
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2015, 02:53:41 pm »
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)

macrho

  • Guest
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2015, 03:12:11 pm »
The user community here is fantastic and what keeps me still using the product but I am actively seeking another option, perhaps openHAB as others are looking towards. When I had my new garage door openers installed, I went and purchased the MyQ hardware and decided to try my hand at programming for my Vera. The community support was fantastic, @guessed and others shared programming tips and critiques of what I was trying to write. It was fantastic! I was learning..  Rewind a few months, before I even started trying to develop a plugin: I was experiencing restarts of the LUA engine. I had a case open with support to see if they could help find out what the issue was. I would go weeks without an answer from support though I would keep checking in week after week.   The usual suspects were what most everyone heard from support: other plugins causing the issues.  I kept plugging away, thinking it was perhaps my code that was causing the restarts but given 20+ restarts a day, I couldn't adequately attempt to develop my plugin any further -- I gave up. When working with tech support, I basically had removed all the great plugins I love and use: PLEG, NetAtmo, day/night, XBMC, etc. Fast forward a few weeks and I find a post from @garrettwp that says he found out the issue for his restarts were due to having a Plex server and it was flooding Vera with DLNA requests. Sure enough, that fixed my restarts. So, I wrote an email to support about the issue and then wandered over to the GetVera site and found a page "About Us" that listed all the senior management, along with their emails (oddly, that page no longer exists). I crafted an email to them (including colin, lew and aaron) and heard absolutely nothing back. Passionate users trying to bring their thoughts to the company and then hearing a deafening silence kind of makes one not so interested anymore.. If things went well, perhaps the Vera support team could have figured out the issue that was causing all my restarts and I might have spent even more of my own free time helping to make your product better. I guess as folks have said above, action, not words are needed.

Offline Colin Burke McClure

  • SVP Product & Innovation
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +32/-17
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2015, 03:44:08 pm »
What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.

@Richard as per usual... succinct and spot on! Thank you. Comments like this are like health food; they may not taste good, but they are good for you.

The lack of external transparency and visibility is an issue, across the board. Not just on bug reporting, but also new features, device and partner integration, etc. We're already underway on some web projects to help surface this information more clearly, as well as expanded documentation. Further, we've got to do a much better job of closing the feedback loop, so we're not burning cycles needlessly on either side.

Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
SVP Product & Innovation

MiOS  *  Puts You in Control
www.mios.com  *  colin@mios.com  *  +1 (888) 510-6467

Offline Colin Burke McClure

  • SVP Product & Innovation
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +32/-17
Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2015, 05:43:51 pm »
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.
I do not see my self as one of the key-developers like garret or richard, but I never got this eMail either. From other companies I get free devices without having to ask, even before they hit the market just for saying "I might develop something".

You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.
There was more than one, in my opinion (i.e @Ap15e and @chris)

I didn't stop to work on my plugins to put pressure on Vera Ltd., my plugins are not important enough for that. But I just don't see a future with vera, so from where should I take the motivation. As you can see we were already raging almost 3 years ahead of today, Micasverde ingored us so long why should I believe in you now?

@CHIXXI Of course you didn't. You just got fed up. Which, based on the circumstance is totally understandable. Moreover, your plugins are that important. You and your participation are that important!

Based on our track record CHIXXI, you shouldn't believe us. I'll own that. We deserve it!

I'm nothing if not pragmatic (some days, to a fault). I've willing stepped into a very, very challenge situation here. It will not be a quick fix. It will not be without significant effort. At all levels within the organization. But it will happen.

If you can email me your ship to address in the next 90 min our so, I'll have your controller ship out today. It's a small step, but it's a start towards reestablishing trust.

Onward...
Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
SVP Product & Innovation

MiOS  *  Puts You in Control
www.mios.com  *  colin@mios.com  *  +1 (888) 510-6467