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Author Topic: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email  (Read 83800 times)

Offline TC1

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #195 on: January 31, 2015, 08:19:25 pm »
I may be taking an unpopular position here, but here goes....allow me to ramble.

Quote from: TC1
Yup. The reality is that the only thing Vera has going for it is that MiOS spent the $$$ to join the Z-wave alliance and get access to the proprietary code that deals with secure communications (locks, etc). OpenHab proves that a group of like-minded folks could do a better job of building the automation stack and interfaces. Vera is nothing more than the Z-wave stack at this point.

No offense to OpenHab...but OpenHab has not "proved" much of anything from the point of view that is Vera's primary purpose: a retail product.  What I mean by that is, openHAB does not appear to be able to pass the Grandma test any time soon:  Can I go to, buy an "openhab" controller and door lock for my Mom as a gift, and then walk away and wash my hands of it?   That's even quite ambitious for Vera, but they are much closer to such a reality.

Opensource projects will always have certain advantages over retail, commercially supported products.  On the other hand, they will have disadvantages.   The "power users" of course tend to gravitate to the strengths of opensource vs. those of retail products, so it's not surprising to see the most advanced power users start to gravitate to openHAB.

This is from the openHAB features page:

Quote from: openHAB Features
openHAB does not try to replace existing solutions, but rather wants to enhance them - it can thus be considered as a system of systems. It therefore assumes that the sub-systems are setup and configured independently of openHAB as this is often a very specific and complex matter (including "pairing" processes, direct device links etc.). Instead, openHAB focuses on the "daily use" side of things and abstracts from the devices themselves.

In other words, it is not openHAB's mission to get into the "very specific and complex matter" doing one of the core features required of home automation: actually binding devices physically to "your home".  It basically leaves that matter to the retail products to handle.

Must be nice to "assume" that such minor details are all already taken care of by someone else.  And if it's not?  Send the user to "the other guy" for support.

All sarcasm aside, this is not a slight on openHAB.  Far from it.  It's a fantastic initiative and I hope it continues to grow and become successful. I may even get involved myself.  My point is that the primary concerns for openHAB are simply not the same as those for a product like Vera...although there is of course overlap.  So sure, can a group of "like minded" folks with passion come up with a better "automation" scheme and a more widely accepted interface than Vera?  No doubt.  At least, I have no doubt it is / will be a better scheme for highly technically inclined individuals.

The way I see it, the community here at micasaverde forums would love to see Vera's controller products grow to be

1) More stable when lots of plug-ins, devices are utilized (the device hardware issue).
2) More robust from an automation standpoint.
3) Of course, everyone has their own idea of what "their ideal" UI looks and acts like.  (Vera is in a tough spot here...)
4) Continue to support end-user extensibility with publishable applications.

I do not see any reason why Vera cannot continue to  improve on all fronts.  As has already been discussed, it takes a willingness from Vera to reliably communicate with the community and consider constructive feedback.  It also takes patience from the community and understanding that while we may be the most passionate customers, we are not Vera's only customers.

I have had nothing but a positive experience with the Vera team over the past few weeks since the advent of this thread.  No, all of my inquiries are not yet answered in full, but they have all ben acknowledged.  I for one will continue to actively support Vera with my little plug-ins and will continue to use Vera as my primary home controller.  I will also continue to have a dialog with Vera about what issues I find, improvements I'd like to see, etc.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're all really glad that your experience has been "positive", but as you admit, you've come to the product recently. Many folks here have had to deal with empty promises for years now. To quote one of the other users/devs "it's no longer fun anymore".

It was never implied that OpenHab was a "grandma product". What it is is a platform where hopefully the HA power user will be able to mix and match their choice of technologies and perform complex automation without having to worry about the hardware running underneath it (since they will have a choice there). No one claimed it was a finished product. But guess what? Neither is UI7  ;)

Offline JoeyD

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #196 on: January 31, 2015, 10:31:28 pm »
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're all really glad that your experience has been "positive", but as you admit, you've come to the product recently.

Indeed.  I can only relate personally to the last few weeks.

Quote
Many folks here have had to deal with empty promises for years now. To quote one of the other users/devs "it's no longer fun anymore".

I can appreciate that.  Perhaps because I am new....learning new things, making my devices work and having other folks using my apps and appreciating my work...I am having fun. :)  Honeymoon period?  Perhaps.

Quote
It was never implied that OpenHab was a "grandma product".

And yet you compared openHAB to Vera...you used the example of openHAB to "prove"...what?  That Vera is incompetent because hey...any group of like-minded folks can get together and deliver...so why can't Vera?  My point exactly is that what openHAB is delivering is not the same class of product that Vera is delivering.  In short...your comparison of openHAB to Vera was not entirely fair.

Vera is trying to be a product that is both approachable for novices, and at the same have enough flexibility, power, and expandability for power users.  More ambitious in many ways IMO than openHAB.  There is actually a class of people out there that want to plug a product in, click the one or two buttons they "need" to.... and then just forget about it and get on with their lives.  At least, I've been told these people  exist. ;)   

Quote
What it is is a platform where hopefully the HA power user will be able to mix and match their choice of technologies and perform complex automation without having to worry about the hardware running underneath it (since they will have a choice there).

Right. And that is a worthy goal, and I wish openHAB great success in achieving it.  That being said would it really be fair of me to criticize openHAB for not giving me a product that I can pay $100 for, plug it in, click a few buttons and have my lights and locks up and running? 

Quote
No one claimed it was a finished product. But guess what? Neither is UI7  ;)

Believe it or not....UI7 from a pure consumer perspective actually exceeded my expectations.  I'll allow you a minute to let that sink in. :)  It took me longer to physically install my locks than it did to get them up and running with Vera UI7.  And UI7 provided me with more control options than I assumed it would.  My prior experience is what I could do with my MyQ garage doors, Honeywell WiFi thermostat, and Legrand lighting gateway.  And that damn lighting gateway cost nearly $300.

It was what UI7 allowed me to do "out of the box" that drove me to see "what else I could do".  And the rest is (an admittedly short) history. :)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:35:40 pm by JoeyD »

Offline BOFH

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2015, 11:47:47 pm »
Knowing full well I'll get undoubtedly will get 'smitten' for this, here goes.

I've been around for about 3 years. Starting with a Vera2 and upgrading it to a Vera 3 about a year later. Using these forums to gain the knowledge I needed to get Vera configured and working correctly. I'm running about 30 physical zwave devices and a number of plugins. My Vera 3 Ui5 is my production unit and it's last reboot was 12/31/2014. Not to shabby. My test/QA Vera 3 Ui7's last reboot was January 21st 2015. Not to bad either as I can't remember if that was something I did or not.

* Do I like the look of Ui7? Not really. To me there is too much wasted white space and the film strip at the top is a nuisance as it displays mostly info unusable to me. Is that a big deal? Not to me as 95% of my interaction with either Vera is via Authomation. I only use the webUI for changes which is not that often. The UI could do with some major tweaking I agree.

* Is UI7 as unstable as everyone seems to believe? Not so far, but then again, it's not yet running the 30 zwave devices my UI5 Vera is running. I do tend to gravitate towards the feeling it's not 100% production ready but hey, it's no worse than what Microsoft puts out. Or to a lesser scale Apple. I remember the IOS5, IOS6 etc upgrade woes. Remember antenna gate and bend gate?

* Is UI7 easier to add devices to and make changes? For the ones I've added it seems to require less knowhow and tweaking which is good for  the soccermom demographic and less of a headache to me. ;)

If I had to choose just one UI, at this time it would be UI5. Solely for the reason it's proven over the last few years to be stable and reliable. I haven't had enough experience with UI7 at this time to determine if it's as stable. That is why I am running my QA Vera so I can determine that. This box runs a large part of my house and makes my life easier so I'm not about to go experiment with that. I've been in the IT world long enough to appreciate the need for a QA/Testing environment to ensure the production environment stays stable.

* Is the platform in trouble? I believe it is. Competition has gotten fierce with some big hitters in the market. We've lost plugin developers like Chixxi and ap15e. App deveolpers have ceased development or put same on hold while evaluating other options. With all respect to getVera, their Ui7 Android app has nowhere near the power of AuthomationHD. I would not be able to have Vera do what she does without the work of 3rd party developers of both plugins and apps and I am nowhere near the level of some of the real power users in here.

* Does Getvera realize the above? Considering their presence in these forums as of late I believe they do. I also believe some effort is being made to try and turn the tide. If it is enough and actions rather than words, only time will tell.

Do I consider myself a developer? Not really. all I did was contribute some work to the MyQ plugin which really is a community effort. Why did I do that? Because I needed support for my Craftsman opener and it was kinda fun coding again as it's been a while. To a lesser extent it was paying forward for all the help received in here when needed. Unfortunately my time does not allow me to to do much more than that. I'm to old for those 24 hour coding session with the B52's playing loudly and pizza and soda's close by. (Wondering if someone gets that reference)   

My plans? For now stick with Vera as she does what I need her to do right now. I'll definitely keep an eye on the OpenHab project as a plan B system. I've been caught once without such a plan B and learned a hard lesson about not being prepared. The new SmartThings may be a plan C but not enough info is available on that one.
Vera3 UI5 UI7 Edge Plus
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Offline lolodomo

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #198 on: February 01, 2015, 04:29:19 am »
On my side, I believe I never received this famous mail too (or did I delete it by error ?) while I am the author of 3 plugins + a major contributor to another plugin (Sonos). My RFXtrx plugin is probably just used by many Vera users.

By the way, I have now engaged since December 2014 my migration to openHAB as my main home authomation system (very impressed by the stability of such a solution) and I will keep using my VeraLite as my Z-Wave controller.

Of course I will not delete my published plugins, that is absolutely not my philisophy.
3 of my plugins are already available in the marketplace in their final release: Freebox Revolution, DLNA media controller and Sonos.
I would like to publish in the marketplace my RFXtrx plugin but there is apparently a technical problem in the marketplace that Vera Control is not able to fix ! I will let them still few days to fix that and then I will forgive... In this case, I will at least release the final 1.0 release in code.mios.com to let eveybody to install it manually.

If critical bugs in my plugins are discovered in the future and if they are not relative to UI7 (I was constrained to rollback to UI5 due to major issues with my Z-Wave network when using UI7 - "can't detect device" error for few of my Z-Wave devices), I will try to provide a fix.
All my plugins were tested in UI7 in the past (I spent a lot of time for that) and should normally work well (not tested with the last UI7 firmware).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 04:31:53 am by lolodomo »

Offline svaleb

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #199 on: February 01, 2015, 07:17:30 am »
@BOFH
Thanks for your sum up.
About the ui I wil ad my personal view.
I have had a V3 for about 3 years but still consider myself a "succermom".
I jumped to ui6 from the start and gave it time because of its "unfortnate release", went on to ui7 when possible. Many of my devices did not work but it could wait untill winter, during the summer I did not need thermostats and lights when I came home. In october; I think, I went back to ui5 to make things work.
I dont like ui7 for the same resens as you, too much white space and unuseable features, too much clicking ect. but worse it is not logical.
I live in an area where phone an internet connections are poor and, diffrent from you, I use the ui dayly. I feel the ui7 is useless.
It needs a LOT of tweeking. Apart fom the fact that it is not working well "yet", I would still prefer ui5.
But I cannot fight the future.
I just wish MCV would listen to what we are trying to say.
Regards
            CE

Marc Shenker

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #200 on: February 02, 2015, 10:03:29 am »

I dont like ui7 for the same resens as you, too much white space and unuseable features, too much clicking ect. but worse it is not logical.

I just wish MCV would listen to what we are trying to say.

CE, rest assured we are listening. I spend a considerable amount of time reading what is being said here and in other threads. I do not always comment but all of the feedback, especially in this tread is being read and taken in and forwarded to the management team and the appropriate team members.

Could you PM or email me more details about what you find unusable features, too much clicking and what is not logical so I can relay that feed back to our team.

Offline svaleb

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #201 on: February 02, 2015, 12:02:24 pm »
Thanks Marc
I AM assured and hopefully it will help both thr compny and "us here".
By the way it would be nice if you would put in some news in your tread on the top of the forum, the latest is a server overhaul, I think.
We, in the forum, must look for news oll over the net. I vould like to see a link to new products, new updates comming up, "this week we are working on"....(e.g.)thermostats,...in the new update we are working on is expectet to solve...it will be delayed (a few) days.
As I sayed I left ui7 in october it could hae improoved since and I dont remember all, but I will write to you.
Regards
             CE

Offline ceefin

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #202 on: February 03, 2015, 04:23:11 pm »

By the way it would be nice if you would put in some news in your tread on the top of the forum, the latest is a server overhaul, I think.
We, in the forum, must look for news oll over the net. I vould like to see a link to new products, new updates comming up, "this week we are working on"....(e.g.)thermostats,...in the new update we are working on is expectet to solve...it will be delayed (a few) days.

Marc, Colin,

I was just thinking about this, myself. Community outreach involves reaching out beyond the Beta Testing forum. I stumbled upon this thread by accident and have been very satisfied to see the two of you posting back and forth with the community, so much so that it gave me some hope.

I purchased a VeraEdge back in November and have been tinkering with it. Overall, I've been somewhat satisfied, but before I found the back and forth conversation here, between the community and you two, as representatives of the company that produced the unit. I was *very* close to sending it back as I was still in the Amazon extended holiday return period that ended a few days ago..

Now, that's passed. I'm kind of locked into Vera... It's mostly working. I have a few bugs here and there that pop up from time to time, the iOS app irritates me every time it doesn't work or takes forever to connect, but I still have hope. Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

Offline zedrally

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #203 on: February 03, 2015, 04:39:49 pm »
Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris


+1, yes it's all about communication.
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.

Offline Vodden

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #204 on: February 03, 2015, 04:45:07 pm »

Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

+1 here too.
Vera 3 v1.5.622, Sharp Aquos, DSC 1864, EVL-3, (2) iPhone 6, Kwikset 912, Kwikset 910, (2) Linear WT00Z-1, (2) Linear WS15Z-1, (2) Linear WD500Z-1, (2) Evolve LTM-5, (8.) Aeotec micro-dimmer,  (3) Aeotec micro-switch, (1) Cooper Aspire RF9500

Offline vosmont

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #205 on: February 03, 2015, 04:47:53 pm »
Hello,

I'm a Vera Lite user since some years, and I think you are a little hard with this box (OK I'm still on UI5 for the moment  :D).
The Vera is able to do what you want, with plugins (community and your own dev) or LUA.

I'm not coming here often (more on the french forum TLD), and I discovered that Vera Control seems to follow more closer the developpers.
Good news !

Just some thoughts for Vera Control :
- Uploading files on the MIOS Marketplace is not easy. It's difficult to know if all the files are correctly updated.
- Please, save choices for publication (Destination Path and compress). If you forget them for exemple, icons won't be available for new users.

Sincerely,
Vincent

Offline Brientim

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #206 on: February 03, 2015, 04:50:11 pm »
Hello Chris,

I agree with your comments and I have sent a few emails to both about communication using official announcements and followed with Marc again earlier today.

Marc acknowledged what I communicated "One of the complaints was no official announcements are being made WRT MCV activities and only appears in their (yours) Facebook page.  14k Facebook follows vs 100k forum members." And... "The problem at the moment is even Colin's recent posts about the firmware and your about the training video are in sub threads specific to a question and will get lost in time. By using the official post and linking the sub threads specific to a question and will get lost in time. By using the official post and linking the sub thread to this, the official post maintain the integrity of the message and easy to reference. This is users window into MCV's working.

WRT to firmware releases, yes link it out but I believe a key statement of the big wins should be included. I.e this release rectified the USB issue..."
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 04:54:34 pm by Brientim »

Offline akbooer

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #207 on: February 03, 2015, 04:53:29 pm »
I'm not coming here often (more on the french forum TLD), and I discovered that Vera Control seems to follow more closer the developpers.
Good news !
I think you'll find that this is a relatively recent innovation

Quote
Just some thoughts for Vera Control :
- Uploading files on the MIOS Marketplace is not easy. It's difficult to know if all the files are correctly updated.
- Please, save choices for publication (Destination Path and compress). If you forget them for exemple, icons won't be available for new users.

+1 for that!  I do believe that improvements to the App Store have been promised, so we look forward to what can be done.
3x Vera Lite-UI5/Edge-UI7, 25x Fibaro, 23x TKB, 9x MiniMote, 2x NorthQ Power, 2x Netatmo, 1x Foscam FI9831P, 9x Philips Hue,
Razberry, MySensors Arduino, HomeWave, AltUI, AltHue, DataYours, Grafana, openLuup, ZWay, ZeroBrane Studio.

Offline Vodden

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #208 on: February 03, 2015, 04:58:38 pm »

Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

+1 here too.
Vera 3 v1.5.622, Sharp Aquos, DSC 1864, EVL-3, (2) iPhone 6, Kwikset 912, Kwikset 910, (2) Linear WT00Z-1, (2) Linear WS15Z-1, (2) Linear WD500Z-1, (2) Evolve LTM-5, (8.) Aeotec micro-dimmer,  (3) Aeotec micro-switch, (1) Cooper Aspire RF9500

Offline zedrally

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Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
« Reply #209 on: February 03, 2015, 05:30:37 pm »
I actually thought the logo stuff up was something unique to me.   ???


Thinking out aloud, would proper Forum software be a step forward?
Simple machines are OK to start with but have limitations.
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.