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Author Topic: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed  (Read 34145 times)

Offline MountainDave

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2010, 07:00:36 pm »
I am on the cusp of buying a Vera, so this is my first post.  I just found this thread and it directly answers my question that I just left with the phone tech support desk this afternoon:  Can I do a one- or two- level Boolean  trigger using AND and OR?  I sense that the answer is YES with some deep programming, but NO with a more modest effort using high level language or graphical tools. 

I have several groups of outdoor motion sensors (wireless Heath/Zenith because they do have ambient light threshold AND's before triggering), several HRDS1 sensors that bridge to the z-wave network, and several groups of Leviton z-wave dimmer circuits.  I really need some better control logic and was hoping Vera was the answer.  Now, I think I have to wait this development out before committing to Vera.  I feel that this is pretty fundamental to an honest home automation product.  Vera has a nice set of attributes, but HomeSeer has the logic I need, if way over the top in cost, etc. 

Just my vote to see some Boolean functions added to Vera.

Offline MountainDave

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2010, 07:09:35 pm »
Sorry -- I guess "am bie nt" is a screened phrase.

guest4690

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2010, 10:47:19 pm »
Can I do a one- or two- level Boolean  trigger using AND and OR?  I sense that the answer is YES with some deep programming, but NO with a more modest effort using high level language or graphical tools.

It's not 'deep programming'; the Lua language is as high level as it gets.  But it's text based, not graphical programming.

It's easy to do what you want with one or two lines of code; but you have to think logically to get those two lines.

For example: if you have a scene that gets triggered by a motion detector; but you don't want it to fire between 10am-6pm, you just add this code to the scene:

Code: [Select]
local hour = os.date('*t').hour
if hour >= 10 and hour < 18 then return false end

Offline larry

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2010, 01:29:14 am »

It would be part of the frontend dialog.  instead of constructing a JSON structure that describes the conditions, it would build the Lua code from some templates and insert just like user's code.

Can you send me the exisiting code, I will attempt to expand the capabilities to include more logic.

Offline umtauscher

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2010, 04:26:04 am »
It's not 'deep programming'; the Lua language is as high level as it gets.  But it's text based, not graphical programming.
Sorry, Javier, I know you are the "lua guy" in the team, but do you really think, every end user should be able to program lua?
It should be easy enough to construct a proper user interface for simple logic.
[irony mode on...]
It seems to me, that MCV would also implement a lua interface into something like tivo and instead of clicking to record a show, you would just edit a simple line of lua to get it working.
[irony mode off...]

Perhaps the whole MVC team should watch their own advertising video again, to see how simple it is - should be - to use. If you forgot: http://www.micasaverde.com/demovideo.php

Cheers
Umtauscher

Offline stoney

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2010, 05:30:32 am »
Agreed!! Something as simple as X-10 and AHP (their software) is an "inexpensive" system that
allows for a multitude of conditional expressions from convenient pull down menus that your
average 5th grader could well manage, yet we purchase this Vera box and have to order our life
around schedules and are deprived of conditional simplicity.

Fix it soon or you will lose more than some disgruntled users. I don't think we are the FRINGE group
and I really don't think it's asking too much for MCV to fix or implement this change. I mean they were
able to "change" the vera box without much ado! :o

One of the "Fringe"....

guest4690

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2010, 07:27:26 am »
Sorry, Javier, I know you are the "lua guy" in the team, but do you really think, every end user should be able to program lua?

Definitely not.  And certainly we're working on all these concerns.

But MountainDave seemed to complain that simple things require "deep programming", instead of a "high level language or graphical tools".  And definitely, Lua is a VERY high level language; but not a graphical tool.

I tried hard to make clear that it is programming, it is text based, it might scare lots of people; but it's not low-level, nor too complex.

We don't expect everybody to learn to program; but that's not because vera requires "deep programming", it's because most people just won't like the kind of logical thinking needed for that.  From MountainDave's post, I think he would accept high-level programming (or graphical tools); but not "deep programming".  Maybe I'm wrong and he considers high-level only graphical tools, and anything text-based would be unacceptable for him.  That's why I included a simple but common example where you have to use Lua, that way he can judge for himself.

As a developer, I consider 'low level' languages like C, assembler, Forth; and 'high level' others like Python, Lisp, Lua, etc.  Lots of others fall in between, like JavaScript, BASIC, PHP, etc.  As you can see, it all comes to relative terms and subjective evaluation. 

I honestly don't think it was misleading, I'm trying to inform, not to sell.

Offline SteveO123

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Re: New Form Factor Vera with Beta UI Factory Installed
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2010, 05:54:33 pm »
Quote
I honestly don't think it was misleading, I'm trying to inform, not to sell.

MCV should actually think more about how to sell a product that does what people need.

With all due respect to Javier and the hard working techs at MCV, you just aren't there yet with your product, documentation and support.  Look at what your new users are telling you.  Do you really need labels like "beta", "unstable" and "unsupported" defining your product in the marketplace?

There are many of us who would love to see the potential of this product without the "high-mid-or-low" level programming. How many times do we need to repeat this to you at MCV? Are we really a group of "fringe users" or is this the tip of the iceberg to what the 40,000 potential buyers of your big-box retail units also will want?

Thanks for your time.
"This one goes to eleven!"
Vera2, iVera on iPhone 4, 2xWDTC-20 Tstats, 1xTrane 400 Tstat, 4xHA Dimmers, 2xHA Appliance Modules, 2xHA Wall Switches, 1xHA Exterior Switch, 2xHA07 Controllers, 0X free time!