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Author Topic: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015  (Read 15950 times)

Offline TC1

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2015, 01:28:33 pm »
The 6 seconds delayed is only applicable to the DSC wireless motion. It is there by design and it was embedded into design to alleviate false reporting after LA in 2004 introduced no free false alarm and therefore, reliability was critical to DSC's maintaining a U.S. market. If I remember correctly that was when they were experiencing difficulties and before they were taken over by Tyco.

However, that make them suitable for security but not great for HA purpose. Six seconds is a long delay; especially, if being used for walk patterns.

The LA info can be found here.

http://www.lapdonline.org/faqs/content_basic_view/9162

Brientim, thanks for the background info. I still have to wonder though if all other manufacturers operate under this same constraint, ie, Visionic,Honeywell, Elk, etc.

Offline TC1

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2015, 01:37:43 pm »
So I'll ask a follow up question, of all the wireless alarm systems mentioned (or not), do any of them not have the infamous DSC 6 second delay on the motion sensors? I ask because I intend on using the alarm sensors also for lighting control.

Problem is wireless period. Z-wave or any alarm panels. Wireless = batteries equals not wanting to report very often or repeatably to conserve batteries. Most wireless motions also stop reporting after so many trips in a row. I guess the thought process is if the alarm hasn't tripped in the last 10 motions in the last few min why keep sending the tripped signal over and over. I find they just sleep for while and then after no motion for some period of time it will trip again on next motion.

My 10.00 wired sensors work way better and never need batteries then the 40.00 wireless ones.

I know people don't want to hear that wireless are not as good because install is so easy. But it's a truth you must face. Wired is always better performance vs. wireless convince. Take your pick.

You keep harping on this, and the truth you must face is that some of us have researched and know what the problems are.
We know that wired is better and if we're asking about wireless it's for a reason. But the truth is my family and I just spent the  last two years putting our flood damaged house and lives back together and unfortunately wires weren't run for alarm devices. I have no basement or attic,  so any additional wiring would mean punching holes in perfectly finished walls in every room in order to get to the central closet. I'm glad yours took half a day, you obviously have an attic or basement where it's a piece of cake to drop a wire run. Needlessly punching holes in all my walls at this point would probably end my marriage.


Offline SteveZ

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2015, 02:35:09 pm »
I have a Honeywell Vista 15p pannel and use the AD2USB plugin. I have absolutely no noticeable delay in the wireless motion detectors triggering scenes. what I like most about the AD2USB interface / plugin is that it can use wireless motion detectors and door window sensors that are not enrolled into the panel, just enter the serial # in the plugins cheat cheat. I find that the Honeywell sensors have much better battery life then the z-wave sensors and are usually cheaper too.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2015, 02:37:09 pm »
So I'll ask a follow up question, of all the wireless alarm systems mentioned (or not), do any of them not have the infamous DSC 6 second delay on the motion sensors? I ask because I intend on using the alarm sensors also for lighting control.

Problem is wireless period. Z-wave or any alarm panels. Wireless = batteries equals not wanting to report very often or repeatably to conserve batteries. Most wireless motions also stop reporting after so many trips in a row. I guess the thought process is if the alarm hasn't tripped in the last 10 motions in the last few min why keep sending the tripped signal over and over. I find they just sleep for while and then after no motion for some period of time it will trip again on next motion.

My 10.00 wired sensors work way better and never need batteries then the 40.00 wireless ones.

I know people don't want to hear that wireless are not as good because install is so easy. But it's a truth you must face. Wired is always better performance vs. wireless convince. Take your pick.

You keep harping on this, and the truth you must face is that some of us have researched and know what the problems are.
We know that wired is better and if we're asking about wireless it's for a reason. But the truth is my family and I just spent the  last two years putting our flood damaged house and lives back together and unfortunately wires weren't run for alarm devices. I have no basement or attic,  so any additional wiring would mean punching holes in perfectly finished walls in every room in order to get to the central closet. I'm glad yours took half a day, you obviously have an attic or basement where it's a piece of cake to drop a wire run. Needlessly punching holes in all my walls at this point would probably end my marriage.

I didn't harp on this for no reason. You asked about wireless delay. I gave you an answer you didn't want to hear. YES there is a delay and not only a delay but a stop reporting period also.

If you have no choice but to go wireless then just except it and move on. But people think wired is out of the question because they can't do it. Call in a professional then. 8ft flexing drill bits and pull sticks along with other tools have be used for years to install home audio/video alarms and many other things into already built houses. It's nothing new.

Offline Theboob

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2015, 02:47:20 pm »
I think we all can agree that wired is better and cheaper when it can be installed. But lets leave it at that and move on.

I watched a video on the Honeywell 5800-PIR. The guy said that if the system is not armed, it saves power and goes to sleep for 3 minutes.

At around 2:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6FiGiuVGHY

Offline Brientim

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2015, 03:00:05 pm »
Yes, they have too operate under the same constraints but different manufacturers have implemented different strategies. Remember it is not the alarm manufactures issues but the owner that is fined, but imagine the loss of market for any company just in California if they got a bad name.

All system allow delayed reporting and multiple triggers I.e a window and then a motion,  means there is a breach.  DSC market was DIY/handyman with the Power Series and they have other industrial systems to compete with the other brands.

When we moved 2.5 years ago, I only used wireless and covered the night walk patterns with 3 z-wave sensors because time was available and we have more tightly controlled laws when it comes to pulling wires... It was a matter of economics, time, ROI and keeping my wife happy... There is no way she was even going to consider delaying moving in or work on the home at that point. 

That is why I never state, DSC is the best, but it is simple to install and integrate.  All systems comply with the manufacture standards or applicable regulations to which they legally are sold, so they all must at least perform the same basic requirements.

I have used other systems including Honeywell but not for home and on a much larger scale.  Honeywell want there systems to be the central controller and that is the way they are heading with products. 

Tyco, the parent company behind DSC is also one of the biggest in the world and own a lot of other brands names and are highly reliable systems... All our traffic systems where I live are Tyco.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyco_International

The place when we moved in had another full wireless system which had instant reporting wireless sensors too but no integration was available.  They also could be fully hard wired or battery operated so, one sensor designed for both scenarios. So, it was a good alarm system but lack a key ingredient.

The last point is there are other wireless sensors that are compatible with DSC or 3rd party receivers that interface with the DSC panel that will negate the 6 second delay.  But lot compatible with the DSC model frequencies used in AU or EU, just available the NA market.

Offline SteveZ

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2015, 03:57:17 pm »
I think we all can agree that wired is better and cheaper when it can be installed. But lets leave it at that and move on.

I watched a video on the Honeywell 5800-PIR. The guy said that if the system is not armed, it saves power and goes to sleep for 3 minutes.

At around 2:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6FiGiuVGHY

It will trigger and go to sleep for 3 minutes regardless if the panel is armed or not, the sensor has no way of knowing if the panel is armed. I do not find the 3 minute sleep period to cause me any problems.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2015, 05:36:52 pm »
I think we all can agree that wired is better and cheaper when it can be installed. But lets leave it at that and move on.

I watched a video on the Honeywell 5800-PIR. The guy said that if the system is not armed, it saves power and goes to sleep for 3 minutes.

At around 2:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6FiGiuVGHY

This is where the "stop reporting period" comes into play I was talking about and this also happens on some GE motions I tested early on. All this works just fine for security, but if you want to have lights come on when motion is detected, but the sensor that was working the first few times now goes to sleep. Basically the light stops working like it was before. And In some of our cases we have lights that come on for say 5 min if any time during that 5 min the motion trips it resets the timer for another 5 min. Well if 3min out of the 5 min the motion stops working, then the timer never gets reset.

Again these work just fine for security and alarm purpose. Just know the limitations when you install them and you'll be fine.

Offline Theboob

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2015, 08:53:11 pm »
Sounds good. So what about the WIRED ones (through alarm panels)? Do they work better for home automation?  I spent some time today looking at the various places I want to put sensors and it turns out I can use some WIRED ones.

Any recommendation on a good WIRED "glass break" and "motion sensor" for the Vista panels? There seems to be a lot more choice. Also. Do those just draw power from the panel? I assume so, right?

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2015, 11:07:45 pm »
Sounds good. So what about the WIRED ones (through alarm panels)? Do they work better for home automation?  I spent some time today looking at the various places I want to put sensors and it turns out I can use some WIRED ones.

Any recommendation on a good WIRED "glass break" and "motion sensor" for the Vista panels? There seems to be a lot more choice. Also. Do those just draw power from the panel? I assume so, right?

All panels use the same wired motions and glass breaks. There is no difference.

Motions use 4 conductor wire. 2 wires for power and 2 wires for completing the circuit.

I don't use glass breaks myself, motions cover that for me.

Offline mvader

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2015, 10:05:41 am »
DSC 1832 is what you'll want

But wheres the explanation of why?

the explanation is implied. It meets the op's requirements.

Offline SteveZ

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2015, 09:37:02 pm »
DSC 1832 is what you'll want

But wheres the explanation of why?

the explanation is implied. It meets the op's requirements.

Unless he wants wireless motion sensors to respond in less then 6 seconds

Offline Theboob

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2015, 12:03:23 am »
Well I went ahead and ordered a bunch of Vista equipment. 20p, EVL-3 and a bunch of wireless sensors. I've also ordered as much wired stuff as I can install without ripping the house apart too much. My home is fully developed including the basement, so that limited where I can get the wires too. But will use as many cold air ducts as possible to pull wires around.

My one cold air duct is turning into more of a wire conduit  :).

One thing came out of my investigation (as to where I could get wires ran). I had one of the cold air vents open on the second floor and found some attic insulation sitting in it. I thought that was very odd. I discovered an 8" square recess that goes straight vertical to the attic which was improperly sealed prior to adding the attic insulation. And it was dumping STRIAGHT into my cold air duct back to the furnace/AC. How bizarre. Nothing like sucking HOT or COLD attic air (and insulation) straight into the house.  Well at least I know where I'll be running the siren wires!


Offline Theboob

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Re: Best supported Alarm Panel 2015
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2015, 12:13:17 am »
As an aside. From what I gathered, it seems that the Vista/DSC/Caddx are all pretty much similar and all supported well with Vera (the panels all seem to copy features from one another). I liked the DSC and Vista support slightly better just because of the EVL-3 support. I just like the ability to separate the panel from the Vera, so the EVL-3 helps there.  And also, my friend has access to wholesale prices for Vista so I got everything pretty much at 30-40% off. His wholesaler didn't have a good selection of DSC stuff. So that's just how it worked out.

And I'm also a software developer and I'm interested in perhaps writing some IOS apps that interact with the EVL-3/Vera.  But we'll see.

The only thing I don't like about the EVL-3 is the fact that it opens up an tunnel from the EVL-3 back to their server (like Vera does).  But what are you going to do. That gives you the SMS/Email alert support and gets around the firewall crap trying to directly access the EVL-3. So I guess we'll keep the EVL-3 on it's own subnet with the Vera. The only annoying part about that is it makes it difficult to access stuff on the home network (such as my Denon amp). Oh well.