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Author Topic: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger  (Read 36338 times)

Offline ASIHome

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 12:27:11 pm »
What about making it drag and drop? When, Or, And and Then could look like devices, almost like a flow chart.

Offline Maartenvt

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 12:51:07 pm »
But why are we still using code examples. In my opinion a good design should work and be able to be configurated without using any writing of code.
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Offline mikeholczer

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 12:56:22 pm »
We are using coding examples in the discussion to point out the UI examples could potentially mean different things.

I know that this seems like a very simple thing, but when you actually go to develop a software feature like this there are a lot of issues that come up. When combining ANDs and ORs the order in which one does it changes the outcome. This is what the coding examples are meant to point out. The tricky part here is making a UI that is easy to use, but also can clearly specify the order of operations.

guest4733

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 03:00:32 pm »
I've never posted in this topic 'cause I don't know how can I help here?

Offline Keeper

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 03:08:46 pm »
I've never posted in this topic 'cause I don't know how can I help here?

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=3164.0

Offline michaelk

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 03:13:18 pm »
I've never posted in this topic 'cause I don't know how can I help here?


can you include "AND" in the new UI?

basically, seems the rest of the crew at MCV says it's up to you to get it done.

(if you read the first post- you can see some of the quotes from the rest of your guys- but you might want to read the threads linked for all the gossip. Basically seems they think it's a UI issue and not something in the back end. So since you are the UI guy they say it's for you to correct what many of us see as a deficiency)

« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 03:23:39 pm by michaelk »

guest4733

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 03:14:31 pm »
We can design it but it has be done in back-end too and it is not a first priority now. I think, considering the number of your posts here in the topic, in near future it will be done.

Offline michaelk

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 03:25:00 pm »
sorry- just edited while you were posting.

I think you guys all need to get a meeting or conference call on the issue. They seem to be saying it's just your UI issue and not their backend.

(at least that's how it looks to my outsider eyes)


guest4690

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 06:08:24 pm »
I've never posted in this topic 'cause I don't know how can I help here?

can you include "AND" in the new UI?

basically, seems the rest of the crew at MCV says it's up to you to get it done.

well, yes and no.

first, it's not a backend issue, since the backend will simply execute the Lua code, no changes here.

what's missing is a code generator application, which is (mostly) a method to get information from the user to specify his/her wishes.  in other words, a frontend to the Lua code.

but it's not (necessarily) part of UI4.  It should be a mostly independent module, maybe even could work on UI2,3,4...  of course if that's a requirement, it could make it harder to realize

a module like this should be well designed to guide the user while creating the specification, this is work for a good interface designer, not for a hardcore programmer. (like me, I still think that it's easier to spend an hour learning Lua and start tinkering)

So, I don't think we can assume that Alex should build this and not release UI4 until it's done; I do think that he's the one that should think how it should look and how to best integrate in the rest of the UI.    but when it could be ready.... that's another question

I've been throwing ideas here in the hopes that something useful appears, not because I expect Alex to pick them and throw everything else.

If we converge into something that seems workable, I might try my hand at making a simple and ugly 'proof of concept'.  If that works, then Alex could apply some prettifying magic and get it closer to reality.

Offline michaelk

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 09:02:45 pm »
I wouldn't hold up the rest of UI4 to deal with it either if you want my vote. But I do think that Alex should at least keep in mind that he needs to find a place in the new UI for it. And that all of you folks at MCV should work together to get it done sooner rather than later.

And to tell you the truth I would agree with Alex that  much of it is the backend guys job.- Are all our scenese already translated into lua code? If that's the case then I guess it just IS a UI thing and I'm just not computer literate enough to understand. But if all the scenes currently just get done (sorry not a programmer so unsure of the right words) without being translated to lua then i dont see why there isn't some AND action inserted to where there is already clearly OR used all the time in the current back end.

But whoever posts as 'micasaverde' (I assume "the boss")- asked us to take the conversation to the UI4 forum
Quote
I recommend this discussion continue in the new UI4 forum.

and said Alex would handle it
Quote
I'm going to step out and let Alex handle this in the UI4 discussion

so to me it seemed he(or she) clearly thought it's just a UI issue that Alex should just handle. (well that or Alex is the new master of calming any grumpy hordes of unhappy customers that are trolling the forum- laughing)

So how about it Alex? - can you sit down with the powers that be and work out a plan for who is going to do what?  And then as either the "king of the new UI" were it gets implemented, or as the "master of the angry hordes" let us know when we might expect some headway on the issue? Weeks, months, years?  Hopefully after the Vera2 and UI3 situations of late it's clear that a little information thrown to the users goes a long way. to keeping the rebellions in check.   ;)  

If it's not Alex's job than can someone from MCV please let us know what the situation is?

thanks!
Mike
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:10:10 pm by michaelk »

Offline michaelk

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 09:06:59 pm »
...
If we converge into something that seems workable, I might try my hand at making a simple and ugly 'proof of concept'.  If that works, then Alex could apply some prettifying magic and get it closer to reality.

I'm all for UGLY proof of concept to kick the tires on- thanks for offering! 

What other sorts of things do you think we need to work out? Seems to me like you have a decent handle on the logic of it.  (again clueless non-programmer so if there's a lot missing please forgive me)

guest4733

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 04:00:14 am »
I've never posted in this topic 'cause I don't know how can I help here?

can you include "AND" in the new UI?

basically, seems the rest of the crew at MCV says it's up to you to get it done.

well, yes and no.

first, it's not a backend issue, since the backend will simply execute the Lua code, no changes here.

what's missing is a code generator application, which is (mostly) a method to get information from the user to specify his/her wishes.  in other words, a frontend to the Lua code.

but it's not (necessarily) part of UI4.  It should be a mostly independent module, maybe even could work on UI2,3,4...  of course if that's a requirement, it could make it harder to realize

a module like this should be well designed to guide the user while creating the specification, this is work for a good interface designer, not for a hardcore programmer. (like me, I still think that it's easier to spend an hour learning Lua and start tinkering)

So, I don't think we can assume that Alex should build this and not release UI4 until it's done; I do think that he's the one that should think how it should look and how to best integrate in the rest of the UI.    but when it could be ready.... that's another question

I've been throwing ideas here in the hopes that something useful appears, not because I expect Alex to pick them and throw everything else.

If we converge into something that seems workable, I might try my hand at making a simple and ugly 'proof of concept'.  If that works, then Alex could apply some prettifying magic and get it closer to reality.

Of course a sketch would help a lot. Please feel free to propose and we will try to integrate it in the new UI.

Anyway I can confirm that the new UI4 will integrate this feature.

guest4690

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 09:28:10 am »
Of course a sketch would help a lot. Please feel free to propose and we will try to integrate it in the new UI.

So far, it seems that the simplest way is to simply add more conditions to the event definition screen.

Currently, you can only define a single variable to be compared to a single argument.  Adding more of these (variable/operation/argument), would do the trick.  The event would fire only when all conditions are met.  This is the AND.

Then, simply defining several events with the same result takes care of the 'outer' OR grouping.

The UI impact is minimal, and so is the extra burden on the user.  I don't know if you have already begin sketching that part (the scene/event/trigger/timer definitions); for now, simply allow for multiple conditions on a single event trigger.

What we still have to define is about the 'back of the frontent'.  Currently, it builds a JSON structure described here http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Luup_Events.  We could either extend this structure, and change the Luup engine to handle it, or we could drop this structure and make it always generate Lua scripts, even for simple events.

To be honest, now it seems that this was what the users were asking from the beginning; but for hardcore programmers it wasn't obvious.  At least for me, as soon as you pass the simple list of options, you're in programming territory.  And if you don't want to program, you need a code generator.  No middle grounds!  But it seems that just this addition, limited as it is, will make a big difference for some users.

In any case, the visible portion of the UI is almost unchanged (in concepts), the real work will be in how it communicates with the backend.

Offline Maartenvt

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2010, 12:13:09 pm »
I would also be good to have a simple scene/event/trigger overview. no its not very userfriendly to actually see directly how a scene is build up.
see screenshot. You first have to open all kinds of tabs 1 by 1.

(off topic) also the explanation within the scene editor is a little overkill. You also have a question mark button in the upper right to get additional info or help.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 12:17:42 pm by Maartenvt »
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Offline michaelk

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Re: Please include "AND" as a scene trigger
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2010, 01:36:51 pm »
Of course a sketch would help a lot. Please feel free to propose and we will try to integrate it in the new UI.

So far, it seems that the simplest way is to simply add more conditions to the event definition screen.

Currently, you can only define a single variable to be compared to a single argument.  Adding more of these (variable/operation/argument), would do the trick.  The event would fire only when all conditions are met.  This is the AND.

Then, simply defining several events with the same result takes care of the 'outer' OR grouping.

The UI impact is minimal, and so is the extra burden on the user.  I don't know if you have already begin sketching that part (the scene/event/trigger/timer definitions); for now, simply allow for multiple conditions on a single event trigger.

What we still have to define is about the 'back of the frontent'.  Currently, it builds a JSON structure described here http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Luup_Events.  We could either extend this structure, and change the Luup engine to handle it, or we could drop this structure and make it always generate Lua scripts, even for simple events.

To be honest, now it seems that this was what the users were asking from the beginning; but for hardcore programmers it wasn't obvious.  At least for me, as soon as you pass the simple list of options, you're in programming territory.  And if you don't want to program, you need a code generator.  No middle grounds!  But it seems that just this addition, limited as it is, will make a big difference for some users.

In any case, the visible portion of the UI is almost unchanged (in concepts), the real work will be in how it communicates with the backend.


DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

that alone would be a great start