Author Topic: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!  (Read 2878 times)

Offline Jlv

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Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« on: February 08, 2017, 06:51:47 pm »
I have been having main memory issues with my VeraLite so I purchased a Vera Plus.  The Vera Plus came up well and I was able to start with the two units stable and running UI7.  That is where the good news ends.  I have spent days trying to move devices over to the Vera Plus and it has been rough.

I read that trying to use the controller commands for this process was full of problems and when I tried to bring my devices over that way I saw why.  A few devices made it but most did not and devices I never heard of started showing up.  I tried to delete these but I could not.  So I reset the ZWave devices and loaded a backup file on to the Vera Plus. I then started to look the task of doing it by hand.

I have about 35 devices that the controller works with and the first thing I learned was I had to have the manuals for each so that I could unpair and the include them on the new controller,  since I have only a few manuals left for my devices I had the happy task of removing devices from walls, fountains, etc. just to get the model number and then find a manual.  This turned into several days work but I was just getting to the fun part.

I started with the wall switch next to the controllers. I put it into exclude mode and was able to upair it from the VeraLite.  I then added it to the Vera Plus and it worked.  I thought I was on the path to making this upgrade work.  The next switch worked as well.  The third switch did not.  It would not unpair from the VeraLite nor could I get it to pair with the new Vera Plus.  I could not seem to get passed this.

 I tried other devices and I got a couple to work but the ones that didn't were lost.
Turns out that the VeraLite does not have the ability to pair/unpair without being close to the device.  I found this out by first bringing an appliance module close to the VeraLite.  It unpaired and paired back without issue.  But when I took it out of the room it would not Unpair.

 Ahah! I remembered that the VeraLite has a battery mode and I could bring it to the device and unpair it using the lights on the unit.  This I did with the devices that would not work and I got the fast blinking lights indicating the devices were not longer associated with the VeraLite.  However, the Vera Plus does not have a battery mode and you can't drag it from device to device unless it is connected to the Ethernet.  So I dragged out my 40' Ethernet cable (you can use up to 300' if needed) and brought the Vera Plus close to the first switch that would not pair.  You guessed it, it worked.  Using the long cable I was able to get the devices that did not work and paired them with the new controller.  It just took me 4 days to do it.
The issue seems to be that older z-wave products do not have the power that newer ones do.  So you may need to get the Vera Plus close to the device in order to pair it up.

So, if you are trying to upgrade I can give you a step by step approach to adding devices....
1. Get the instructions for how to exclude/include the device.
2. (If you using UI7) go to the add devices button. Pick out your device or choose Generic ZWave Device from the list on the screen.  When the next two screens come up hit the "Next" button twice and the controller will start the add process. Now put the device into include/exclude mode.  If all goes well great, if it just hangs there counting down, then:
3. Hit the "retry" button.  This will take you to the screen that deletes devices.  Attempt to exclude the device.  It it works, up at top of the screen, in blue, it will say "Node Finished".  It will then take you to the add device page.  Now attempt to pair it by putting the device again into include/exclude state.  If this does not work you must find a way to get the Vera Plus closer to the device.  I know of no other method to get older devices into the network.

This works even if you have not excluded the device from the old controller.  Good luck and let's hope that someday we will have the option to move devices, one at a time, from one controller to another with just the click of a button.  And, if that already exists I will be quite embarrassed.

Offline Chrisfraser05

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 07:22:04 pm »
Always start furthest from the controller when removing and closest when adding.

You can use the routing to help.

I have never moved my Edge, I excluded and readded a few sensors 5 rooms away through stone walls.

As soon as you removed the closest devices that was it screwed

Offline Jlv

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 07:47:46 pm »
Interesting and a good idea.  I have a repeater so I included it and moved it next to the device that would not pair.  I also updated neighbors but that did not work.
However, I wished I had used your procedure as it would make a difference.  Tks

Offline Branksome27

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 07:38:03 am »
I had been casually toying with the idea of upgrading from Vera Lite to Vera Plus and I browsed the
knowledge base on how that would be done.  Got the impression that if I followed the procedure it would be all hunky-dory

Then I looked at this scary forum and confronted a different reality

But then another thought.  I only have 4 devices that are fixed.  All the others are plug in modules. So presumably, for the purposes of an upgrade, if I were to reposition all the plug in units to form  direct geometric paths to each of the fixed units, make sure they all worked, then I could  transfer the fixed units to the new hub and then gather the portable units nearby and transfer them.  Would that make sense?

But contributing to the justification  for upgrading was the thought that I would gain a Vera Lite that could provide a hot backup if the newer hub failed.  But presumably the Vera Lite would now be an empty shell and not capable of acting as a quick easy set-up standby hub.  Would that be correct?

For me it seems ease of use by consumers  was not high on the list of design considerations for Z Wave.  I am glad I have still kept part of my old X10 network in use.

Offline Jlv

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 03:20:42 pm »
As far as I know all of your assumptions are correct.  With your set up, moving your devices to the new controller should be fairly straight forward.

It is unfortunate that there is not a quick/easy way to use the VeraLite as a back up.  It would require a save from one device and restore on the second.  I don't believe that exists yet.

Z-wave may have its limitations but it is light years ahead of X10.  I started my journey there and I am glad I switched.  However, with the new WiFi controls it appears that is the wave of the future.

Offline Branksome27

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 04:51:22 am »
As far as I know all of your assumptions are correct.  With your set up, moving your devices to the new controller should be fairly straight forward. 

Thanks

Offline Zoro

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 05:30:24 am »
Always start furthest from the controller when removing and closest when adding.

You can use the routing to help.

I have never moved my Edge, I excluded and readded a few sensors 5 rooms away through stone walls.

As soon as you removed the closest devices that was it screwed

Hi Chris--

  Good advice. I have about 60 devices, 20% of which are battery devices that do not repeat the z-wave signal.

  When I moved from a Vera 3 to a Vera Plus (and an existing network) the first day or two I had many devices that couldn't be detected. However, the network repaired itself and began working well. Many of the battery devices I had to exclude and re-include, but that number was relatively small.

   For awhile I thought I would have to exclude and re-include the entire network but that wasn't necessary.

Z

Offline timholmesjr

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 10:45:22 am »
When pairing / unpairing, I found it easier to plug the Vera into a long extension cord.  This would allow me to move the vera to close proximity to the switches without removing them.

Offline anthonyris

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 07:30:58 pm »
OK, taking the plunge. Received my VeraPlus to replace my Vera3, hoping that some of the flakiness/log errors/slow responsiveness/frequent rebooting is due to the 3s limited memory. Will rebuild the network from scratch. So fresh and so clean clean.

Note that I've been a beleaguered, yet eternally optimistic, Vera beta tester since 2008. Yes, 2008... If this last move to the Plus doesn't make for a robust home automation hub with professional integrations with other platforms, I'll be moving along to other choices.

Thinking Good Thoughts,
.//A.
Vera3x2, Leviton, GE dimmers, relays and lamp modules, Sonos, Nests...

Offline anthonyris

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 09:10:08 pm »
Well, this isn't much fun. Have had to reboot my fresh out of the box and freshly up-firmwared Vera Plus between adding each of my existing switches. Have only managed 5 successfully so far. ~30 to go... yikes.

Process: Exclude existing (working!) devices from Vera 3 on UI7, reset device to factory default, attempt to include to new Vera Plus. 
Results:
- every device has excluded easily and immediately from the Vera 3.
- About a 50% failure rate re-including the reset devices.
- Leviton VRMX1s require me to put them in Amber flashing mode before they will include. Odd, they paired with the Vera3 just turning on/off.
- cannot re-include my old Monster IWC600 that controlled my Living Room has been working flawlessly for 6+ years.
- cannot allow Vera to "Automatically Configure" the Monster IWD600S dimmers that have been working for 6+ years. MCV Support says "Not Supported, Bye"

On IWC600 Wall Controller specifically:
Excluded it, reset it, try to include and I get the "Failure to go into learning mode" message from Vera.
I moved Vera to 1 foot of the wall controller. Same. Failure to go into learning mode. Reset device again. Same.

Oh, and btw, I live in a 4 floor house. I would not have even bothered doing this if I knew that Vera couldn't connect to Wifi. Why can't it? Who knows. Has a wifi radio in it, but... And, the idea of buying a 100' ethernet cable to drag around the house is... just... ludicrous. Wow. Will try to connect to the VeraPlus wifi and see if I can include from there.

I'm committed to doing this upgrade and seeing if the expanded RAM (and additional radios) on the Vera Plus finally made my Vera installation stable and more useful. I have several floors of Nests, Sonos, Echos, SmartTVs, Remotes, etc etc that I want to integrate together but could not with the memory and speed limitations of the Vera3. Not feeling super optimistic at the mo'.

If anyone has a tip on the IWC controllers on UI7, I'm all ears. (yep, found the old thread with the "jaded" method. didn't work.)

Not beaten YET (help!),
.//A.

...Dating Vera Since 2008

OK, taking the plunge. Received my VeraPlus to replace my Vera3, hoping that some of the flakiness/log errors/slow responsiveness/frequent rebooting is due to the 3s limited memory. Will rebuild the network from scratch. So fresh and so clean clean.

Note that I've been a beleaguered, yet eternally optimistic, Vera beta tester since 2008. Yes, 2008... If this last move to the Plus doesn't make for a robust home automation hub with professional integrations with other platforms, I'll be moving along to other choices.

Thinking Good Thoughts,
.//A.
Vera3x2, Leviton, GE dimmers, relays and lamp modules, Sonos, Nests...

Offline Don Phillips

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 09:29:27 pm »
Some folks bridge their controllers, and move the logic to the new controller along with plug-ins, and leave the old controller to just control devices. Not sure what I will do when I eventually upgrade. I think I would rather stay clean and put all of my stuff in the one basket and "retire" the 3 to testing duties.

But I am interested if you see better performance. It should be faster and delays should be lessened.
Vera 3, UI7 1.7.947, CT101 t-stat, Everspring motion detector, GE/Jasco switch, Leviton outlet, AeonLabs door sensor, Insteon garage control, Blue Iris, Sricam SP011, iPhone locator, APCUPSD, VeraMate, VeraAlerts, PLEG, House Modes, Countdown Timer, DVR, Virtual & Multi Switch, Weather, Sys. Mon.

Offline anthonyris

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 09:36:48 pm »
I hear you, and it does make a certain sense. I just wanted a clean swing at the whole thing so I could make a decision as to whether to continue to invest in it as a platform. I've hacked, taped, reset, rebooted, re-synced, rewired and retired enough Veras to date. Gotta get to the finish line.

.//A.

Some folks bridge their controllers, and move the logic to the new controller along with plug-ins, and leave the old controller to just control devices. Not sure what I will do when I eventually upgrade. I think I would rather stay clean and put all of my stuff in the one basket and "retire" the 3 to testing duties.

But I am interested if you see better performance. It should be faster and delays should be lessened.
Vera3x2, Leviton, GE dimmers, relays and lamp modules, Sonos, Nests...

Offline shawnky

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 10:16:44 pm »
I just received an email the other day about discounted upgrades for the Vera Plus and Edge.... So far, everything seems to work fine at my house with about 30 devices... I've got a few more to add but hate to rock the boat. But that upgrade fever hits...

Offline anthonyris

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2017, 11:58:08 pm »
Well, got the network rebuilt. Total PITA over several nights, but worth it to get a clean look at Vera's viability to see if I will continue with her.

Some notes:
-fairly easy to connect to the VeraPlus via Wifi, and connect to the UI for including from there. Don't need long Ethernet cable. Just remember to turn off the wifi and DHCP server after you are done includinating.
- still ridiculous that Vera cannot connect to a wifi AP.
- I reset every z-wave device to factory as I was excluding them from the old Vera3. Adds time, but seemed worth it.
- the Schlage BE469 paired nearly instantly, wow. Last time I did that with Vera 3, it was a train wreck.
- I got the Monster ICW600 controller working. To include it, reset it by holding down buttons 1+3 all the way through to blinking red. Then hold down buttons 1+3 to get the solid amber lights, then hit the 3 button once. 10 minutes later (Vera gave no indications of doing anything), the controller showed up. Super. One for the good guys!
- A random number of devices got configured with Polling set to "0". Thus happened with both Instant Status Leviton devices and non-IS devices also. Odd, and a bad idea. Seeing the polling matrix is a good way to understand your Z-wave reliability and to troubleshoot. Reset them all to blank (default) and they started polling.
- the UI flow for adding IP cameras is irrelevant, talks about "opening the box labeled camera" etc etc. Sloppy stuff.
- the upnp camera discovery failed as well. Suggesting I add some Nests and my STB as a camera. Boo! Added them manually.
- have a couple of devices acting wiggy, throwing up "Getting manufacturer..." notices. One of them is a plain vanilla GE/Jasco wall dimmer, so don't know what the deal is there. It works. Will exclude/re-include when I can I guess.

Overall, the logistics of excluding everything and re-including everything is just an unreasonable amount of work for the average consumer.

To wit: Unplugging the Veras, having to reboot them so frequently, divining how to connect to them via Wifi and/or Ethernet patch cables, NO BATTERY PACK FOR VERAPLUS, no on/off switch for Plus, cryptic, black on black and TINY buttons in the front of the Plus (one is labeled Sync? When did Zwave start using "Sync"?), expectation that anyone who lives in a reasonably sized house would be inclined to drag long extension and Ethernet cables around...

The barrier for entry here for the average human consumer is insanely high. Zero chance this catches on in its current state. Sorry as that is.

So, include a battery pack or z-stick way of inclusion at the very least. Oh, and the fact that you make me scroll through an entire list of devices in order to include the highest-end z-wave device manufacturer (Leviton) just doesn't sit right. Everyone pays a time/UI penalty for using that overly-specified include list. If you want to provide a specific inclusion, have it in a separate drop down or something. Scrolling g through that mother 40+ times is bag of rocks stupid.

More on speed and reliability as I rebuild my scenes and automation routines. It's running. SHE LIVES!

.//A.
Vera3x2, Leviton, GE dimmers, relays and lamp modules, Sonos, Nests...

Offline Zoro

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Re: Upgrading to Vera Plus, not so easy!
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2017, 07:49:12 am »
Well, got the network rebuilt. Total PITA over several nights, but worth it to get a clean look at Vera's viability to see if I will continue with her.

Some notes:
-fairly easy to connect to the VeraPlus via Wifi, and connect to the UI for including from there. Don't need long Ethernet cable. Just remember to turn off the wifi and DHCP server after you are done includinating.
- still ridiculous that Vera cannot connect to a wifi AP.
- I reset every z-wave device to factory as I was excluding them from the old Vera3. Adds time, but seemed worth it.
- the Schlage BE469 paired nearly instantly, wow. Last time I did that with Vera 3, it was a train wreck.
- I got the Monster ICW600 controller working. To include it, reset it by holding down buttons 1+3 all the way through to blinking red. Then hold down buttons 1+3 to get the solid amber lights, then hit the 3 button once. 10 minutes later (Vera gave no indications of doing anything), the controller showed up. Super. One for the good guys!
- A random number of devices got configured with Polling set to "0". Thus happened with both Instant Status Leviton devices and non-IS devices also. Odd, and a bad idea. Seeing the polling matrix is a good way to understand your Z-wave reliability and to troubleshoot. Reset them all to blank (default) and they started polling.
- the UI flow for adding IP cameras is irrelevant, talks about "opening the box labeled camera" etc etc. Sloppy stuff.
- the upnp camera discovery failed as well. Suggesting I add some Nests and my STB as a camera. Boo! Added them manually.
- have a couple of devices acting wiggy, throwing up "Getting manufacturer..." notices. One of them is a plain vanilla GE/Jasco wall dimmer, so don't know what the deal is there. It works. Will exclude/re-include when I can I guess.

Overall, the logistics of excluding everything and re-including everything is just an unreasonable amount of work for the average consumer.

To wit: Unplugging the Veras, having to reboot them so frequently, divining how to connect to them via Wifi and/or Ethernet patch cables, NO BATTERY PACK FOR VERAPLUS, no on/off switch for Plus, cryptic, black on black and TINY buttons in the front of the Plus (one is labeled Sync? When did Zwave start using "Sync"?), expectation that anyone who lives in a reasonably sized house would be inclined to drag long extension and Ethernet cables around...

The barrier for entry here for the average human consumer is insanely high. Zero chance this catches on in its current state. Sorry as that is.

So, include a battery pack or z-stick way of inclusion at the very least. Oh, and the fact that you make me scroll through an entire list of devices in order to include the highest-end z-wave device manufacturer (Leviton) just doesn't sit right. Everyone pays a time/UI penalty for using that overly-specified include list. If you want to provide a specific inclusion, have it in a separate drop down or something. Scrolling g through that mother 40+ times is bag of rocks stupid.

More on speed and reliability as I rebuild my scenes and automation routines. It's running. SHE LIVES!

.//A.

Hi Anthony

Have you tried altui? The UI is much better.

Z