Author Topic: Water leak detection and water shutoff control  (Read 2660 times)

Online integlikewhoa

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2017, 12:39:05 pm »
I haven't found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I'm not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs-wv100-z-wave-plus-1-water-valve-controller?variant=23839022214

The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.

This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
https://www.amazon.com/Z-Wave-Control-Leak-Gopher-Certified/dp/B01LE9OD3A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1494819087&sr=8-2&keywords=fortrezz+water+valve

They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.

Both my flow meter and automated shutoff valve will be located outside where my manual shutoff valve is.  I am a little worried about the product you cited here in terms of it being outside.  The Fortrezz valve can definitely be used outside.  In addition, since I will probably add their water sensors as well, the two devices work directly through the z-wave controller, according to the Fortrezz site.  Hopefully, this will give both my insurance company and me peace of mind, assuming I can get everything integrated and working well together.  Should know more by the middle of June when I will be going out there.

Both of mine are mounted outside at the entrance of the house in Arizona. The water meter is below ground in a round box. The shutoff is exposed above gound.

I do not have the electrical connection for either unit exposed though. The actual z-wave box (water flow valve) with the power connections is not water proof and doesn't look weather resistant. Owning both products I would say they are the same. Valves can be exposed electrical connections can not or need to be severally water proofed. 

Only a 9ft water leak cable works directly with the water valve.

Water leak sensors allow direct associations. Direct associations are setup threw the controller (VERA) to allow the sensor to directly control a device (water valve in this case). You can set any sensor that supports direct associations (all the sensors no matter the brand I know of do this) to control any device that supports direct associations (even a light switch or non water valve). So what fortrezz has is nothing different then other brands and direct associations work the same with any device brand or type. So if you wanted Brand ABC motion sensor to turn off a light or off a water valve when it senses motion you could do that as long as both devices support direct association.

You can read a bit more here: http://www.vesternet.com/resources/technology-indepth/groups-scenes-associations

So the bottomline is while I have nothing against Fortrezz or their products (I own several and like them) I don't only drink one brands Kool-Aid to much. Their valve is quiet expensive (like 200.00 more or double) and function is going to be the same. If it was in the same ballpark in price I would consider it more. Do some research and see why z-wave and z-wave functions are one in the same. Brand vs. brand will not make a difference if they support the same features, which I see they do.

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2017, 08:29:35 am »
I haven't found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I'm not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs-wv100-z-wave-plus-1-water-valve-controller?variant=23839022214

The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.

This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
https://www.amazon.com/Z-Wave-Control-Leak-Gopher-Certified/dp/B01LE9OD3A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1494819087&sr=8-2&keywords=fortrezz+water+valve

They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.

Both my flow meter and automated shutoff valve will be located outside where my manual shutoff valve is.  I am a little worried about the product you cited here in terms of it being outside.  The Fortrezz valve can definitely be used outside.  In addition, since I will probably add their water sensors as well, the two devices work directly through the z-wave controller, according to the Fortrezz site.  Hopefully, this will give both my insurance company and me peace of mind, assuming I can get everything integrated and working well together.  Should know more by the middle of June when I will be going out there.

Both of mine are mounted outside at the entrance of the house in Arizona. The water meter is below ground in a round box. The shutoff is exposed above gound.

I do not have the electrical connection for either unit exposed though. The actual z-wave box (water flow valve) with the power connections is not water proof and doesn't look weather resistant. Owning both products I would say they are the same. Valves can be exposed electrical connections can not or need to be severally water proofed. 

Only a 9ft water leak cable works directly with the water valve.

Water leak sensors allow direct associations. Direct associations are setup threw the controller (VERA) to allow the sensor to directly control a device (water valve in this case). You can set any sensor that supports direct associations (all the sensors no matter the brand I know of do this) to control any device that supports direct associations (even a light switch or non water valve). So what fortrezz has is nothing different then other brands and direct associations work the same with any device brand or type. So if you wanted Brand ABC motion sensor to turn off a light or off a water valve when it senses motion you could do that as long as both devices support direct association.

You can read a bit more here: http://www.vesternet.com/resources/technology-indepth/groups-scenes-associations

So the bottomline is while I have nothing against Fortrezz or their products (I own several and like them) I don't only drink one brands Kool-Aid to much. Their valve is quiet expensive (like 200.00 more or double) and function is going to be the same. If it was in the same ballpark in price I would consider it more. Do some research and see why z-wave and z-wave functions are one in the same. Brand vs. brand will not make a difference if they support the same features, which I see they do.

Thanks for that.  A lot of good information.  I agree that the Fortrezz water valve is quite expensive relative to the one you cited.  However, I can get it for about 75% of the retail price since my brother can purchase it for the wholesale price since he works in home automation.  He uses the Elan system, which was outside my price range for a home controller, but often uses a less expensive Vera unit in combination with that as a bridge for locks and other zwave devices.  So I actually may know more than he does about the use of Vera systems, etc. (though obviously not very much).

Yes, I realized that the electrical interfaces of both the shut off valve and the flow meter must be located in inside, though you can order the shut off valve in different cable lengths 25', 50', or 75').  Not as much leeway is given with the flow valve.  It looked like the unit you cited didn't come with any different cable length so that it could be located inside, but maybe I didn't examine it closely enough.

As far as the ability for the sensors to directly communicate with the shutoff valve, it is indeed useful that could happen even with different manufacturers.  However, you must know, that I have no ability (yet) to write code in LUA or PLEG, and even a pretty rudimentary knowledge of all of this technology.  I am trying to learn it, but I am old and slow (that's my excuse, and I am sticking with it).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 08:31:06 am by leedavidr »

Online integlikewhoa

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2017, 12:54:32 pm »
Yes, I realized that the electrical interfaces of both the shut off valve and the flow meter must be located in inside, though you can order the shut off valve in different cable lengths 25', 50', or 75').  Not as much leeway is given with the flow valve.  It looked like the unit you cited didn't come with any different cable length so that it could be located inside, but maybe I didn't examine it closely enough.

You can't beat 75% off (hell of a markup they have on them if that's true and shows why they are so pricey) so jump on it.

The water flow valve uses USB micro connector (same as all Android phones charging cable) to plug from the valve to the box. It says it comes with 5 or 6 ft cable depending where you read it on fortrezz website. Well mine was actually 3ft when I measured it. but after a call to fortrezz they said extending it is not a problem. I bought a 6ft usb micro male to female extender (amazon) and weather proofed the connection from the meter cable to the extender.

On the water shutoff valves that I have (Homeseer) and the other I linked too. It uses a standard "rj9" or phone jack cable. It comes with 9ft cable and you can use any outdoor rated phone cable (rj9) to extend it if you choose. (9ft was enough for me and was around the same length as the meter after I extended it).   

As far as the ability for the sensors to directly communicate with the shutoff valve, it is indeed useful that could happen even with different manufacturers.  However, you must know, that I have no ability (yet) to write code in LUA or PLEG, and even a pretty rudimentary knowledge of all of this technology.  I am trying to learn it, but I am old and slow (that's my excuse, and I am sticking with it).

I think your mistaken on direct association or direct communication. Fortrezz doesn't not automatically know what sensors (how many of them and what the ID #'s) you have and what valves you have nor do you just plug them in and it all works. After you include all your fortrezz devices (into vera) you need to link or direct associate them together (sensors to the valves). This doesn't require LUA or PLEG or writing code. Also the process is the same no matter what brand of sensors and valve you have. So again doesn't matter what brand you have the process is the same and neither will work together out of the box without you associating them (linking them together). Associations are almost the same on every controller (VERA vs. others) but where its found in web UI varies slightly. Google vera and associations to read on how your going to do it. 

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2017, 05:03:21 pm »
Very useful.  I will read up on Vera and associations.  Thanks for all the help.

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 11:07:56 pm »
I can purchase it for 75% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site, not 75% off.  Actually, when I went back to look at it, the price was 80% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site.  So not nearly as good a deal as I misled you to believe.

Online integlikewhoa

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2017, 01:26:01 am »
I can purchase it for 75% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site, not 75% off.  Actually, when I went back to look at it, the price was 80% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site.  So not nearly as good a deal as I misled you to believe.

Sorry, that was my fault not yours I miss read your first post. 75% "of" the price got mixed up in my head with 75% "off" the price. Again not you fault. Thanks for clearing that up though.

Cheers

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2017, 11:31:30 pm »
I downloaded the Fortrezz flow meter plugin found on the Vera website in anticipation of using it in 3 weeks when I have that flow meter installed, and it apparently jammed up my Vera so it wouldn't do anything.  Customer service was very kind to remove the plugin (something I tried to do but couldn't), and now my VeraPlus seems to be working well again.  The Vera employee who helped me, also downloaded that plug in as well and it jammed up his Vera.  While I am appreciative of Vera's prompt help on this, they really should either remove that from their website or place a warning on it of some sort.  Hopefully, I can get the already ordered flow meter to function sufficiently without the plugin.

Online integlikewhoa

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 12:34:04 am »
I downloaded the Fortrezz flow meter plugin found on the Vera website in anticipation of using it in 3 weeks when I have that flow meter installed, and it apparently jammed up my Vera so it wouldn't do anything.  Customer service was very kind to remove the plugin (something I tried to do but couldn't), and now my VeraPlus seems to be working well again.  The Vera employee who helped me, also downloaded that plug in as well and it jammed up his Vera.  While I am appreciative of Vera's prompt help on this, they really should either remove that from their website or place a warning on it of some sort.  Hopefully, I can get the already ordered flow meter to function sufficiently without the plugin.

Wow, thats a bummer. I'm sure you'll get it to work ok but the plugin probley provided more data. Keep us updated.

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2017, 05:50:14 pm »
Update on this:  I had the Fortrezz automated water shutoff valve and the Fortrezz flow meter physically installed at my house in AZ.  I included those two devices and 8 Fibaro water leak sensors onto my Vera Plus network.  The good news is that I can have the Fibaro leak sensors close the shutoff valve when they detect water, but have not been able to get flow rate functionality out of the flow meter with Vera.  Vera customer support is currently looking at it to see if they can help it detect high flow vs. low flow vs. no flow.  I may need to wait a while until someone develops a plugin for Vera.  I should point out that there is a nonfunctional plugin for it on Vera that, when installed, totally jammed up my system (same for Vera support).  The flow meter apparently works well enough in Homeseer to give flow rates, and there is a plugin that is touted by Fortrezz to work well with SmarThings.

Offline leedavidr

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 05:19:08 pm »
2hd update post-installation of the flow meter:  Vera customer support was unable to find a solution to obtain any functionality from the Fortrezz flow meter that I installed.  They added the parameters listed in the technical user manual for the device,but no high flow vs. low flow vs. no flow alerts could be detected.   At the suggestion of one of the more savvy members here, I tried including the device as a energy meter (several different ones listed on Vera devices) instead of as a generic zwave device with no success.  I tried including it as the GoControl flow meter and that also didn't help.  In none of these inclusions am I seeing gallons or anything else counted.  The aforementioned frequent poster who has helped me with this thinks that counting something like gallons is the key, and that if I could get the device to do that with Vera, I could wrangle what I want out of it using PLEG. His idea is that I should change the device file of the device to some sort of meter that counts something. 

Does anyone out there have such a device file with which I could change the device?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:02:26 pm by leedavidr »

Offline ndstate

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 01:58:39 pm »
It doesn't monitor usage, but has anyone used the Dome water shut off https://domeha.com/z-wave-water-main-shut-off-valve?

Offline kwieto

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Re: Water leak detection and water shutoff control
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 03:58:18 pm »
Seems to be another version of POPP valve or its clones available i.e. on aliexpress:

aliexpress.com/item/EU-US-Frewuency-Z-Wave-Intelligent-auto-valve-GR-105-can-conpatible-with-all-zwave-devies/32665924679.html

I didn't use it but you may try to find some opinions about these versions, the idea (and probably hardware) is the same.