We have moved at community.getvera.com

Author Topic: Replacing a fibaro relais  (Read 1146 times)

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Replacing a fibaro relais
« on: September 16, 2017, 07:08:05 am »
Greetings,

In my garage I have a double relais from Fibaro , but the relais sticks sometimes a bit, I have read it is a "known issue" probably due to the use of inferior material , and the metal parts stick togeter due to the higher initial load of the Led lights.


For testing I have now bought a double relais from qubino, maybe that one is a bit better / other material for the contacts.

This fibaro relais/ ID# 79 in vera I have used in many scenes and PLeg , also all my walltablets and phones (Imperihome) use this ID#79 to automate stuff.

How do I exchange the old Fibaro for this new Qubino relais so that it has the same ID in vera? and I don't have to change and configure all PLEG, scenes , wall tablets and phones.

Many thanks,
Cor

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 04:40:01 pm »
no one  knows if this is possible???

This must be possible , devices do break and need to replaced ... no?!?

Cor

Offline kwieto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Karma: +27/-15
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 04:55:03 pm »

Offline jesusgm

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 03:50:27 pm »
Dear Cor, I am very new in this forum, and with likited experince in z wave devices, but long experience on industrial automation.
I am entering in this new area just to evaluate if we can offer similar services that we do presently with wired system to our clients.
During last year I checked both Fibaro two relays and Qubino 2 relays, in two different installations but  both have the same problem that you mention after a number of operations.
From my experience this is typical on micro-relays after large operation,especially if you work with inductive loads.
In addition Qubino present one additional problem as time to time appear as no detected by the controller, even if they continue working without problem but with some delays.
In our case testing with low power motors, in some of the devices we have incorporated a normal relay as main switching using the zwave device as control of this relay and the problem has disappeared at least for the moment (after 6 month with an average of 20 switching per day ) no more stick happen.

I hope this could help.
Regards.

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 10:36:32 am »
Many moons ago I changed the Fibaro relais for a Qubino relais. Since the relais was sticking , and unable to switch the lights off anymore.

Now about 14 months later , the same happends to my Qubino relais. More and more the relais won't switch off anymore unless I toggle the relais a lot of times or tap the relais.

There are about 25 led spotlights connected to this relais , and the Qubino shows when they are on 103 watts.
Does it have something to do with the LEDS? since I have even a compressor on one of these relais which goes up to the limit of the relais and no issues with sticking.

Jesusgm is talking about inductive load? , no idea what is it , but is this the problem?

Anyway , these relais are not up to switch 25 spotlight LEDS  >:( ::). and I am planning as Jesesgm is menioning to insert a ordinary extra relais between the Qubino and Leds.

But what should be the specifications of this relais?
Something like this?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Eltako-Installationsrelais-R12-100-230V-Schaltrelais-fur-Hutschienenmontage-16A/253614604332?hash=item3b0c9bc02c:g:PRIAAOSwWGda9Ih0:rk:14:pf:0

Many thanks,
Cor

Offline rigpapa

  • Beta Testers
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Karma: +187/-3
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 10:48:39 am »
Since the LEDs are inductive loads, you're probably getting arcing at the contacts that's destroying them. You could try snubber networks across the contacts, but in all likelihood that will only delay the inevitable, and snubbers may short when they fail so the cure may be more hazardous than the disease. You should see if you can find electronic (triac) switches for these loads.
Author of Reactor, DelayLight, SiteSensor, Rachio, Deus Ex Machina II, Intesis WMP Gateway, Auto Virtual Thermostat and VirtualSensor plugins. Vera Plus w/100+ Z-wave devices. Vera3, Lite. Hassio, Slapdash.

Offline Catman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2019, 10:56:29 am »
Basically the lights are drawing a *lot* more current when they are turning on. This is frying your relay. No idea what specs you need. 25 seems like a lot of lights.  You could link a number of relays together and have them work in unison perhaps.

C

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 02:12:20 pm »
@ Rigpapa: Do you maybe have a weblink for a triac switch?

The one from my link is not good enough? or something completely wrong?

@ Catman; I can not split the lights unfortunately all the wires come together at one point.  :-\

Thanks,
Cor

Offline zedrally

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
  • Karma: +15/-5
  • Black Cat Control Systems
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2019, 04:35:00 pm »
I'd be looking for a Contactor to do the LED Switching, this along the lines of what you want but you will need find a local source.


https://www.blackcatcontrolsystems.com.au/Black-Cat-In-Wall-Switch-Controllers/3-Phase-Solutions



Your other alternative is is use a solid state relay.
Google that one for a local supplier.


25 LEDs in a string is a lot and most probably exceeds relay specifications.
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.

Offline pit

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 11:42:22 am »
Try Philio PHI_PAN04

"Product Description
.... Thanks to its calibration technology the device cannot only be used to switch resistive devices but also works perfectly with many kind of reactive or resistive loads such as fluorescent lights or LEDs. ..."

see
http://manuals-backend.z-wave.info/make.php?lang=en&sku=PHI_PAN04&cert=ZC08-13060013
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 11:47:01 am by pit »

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2019, 07:33:24 am »
@ Pit: thanks, I will keep this in mind, just before I read your reply I allready ordered a solid state relais:


@zedrally: Thnaks for your idea , I googled what a solid state relais actually is , and that sounds exactly what I need. I bought this one:
Model: SSR-40AA
Input voltage: 80-250V AC
Output voltage: 24-380V AC
Output current: 40A
Working Voltage: 250V

That should do the trick.... I hope.

Thanks,
Cor

Offline Domoworking

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 07:02:17 pm »
Since the LEDs are inductive loads, you're probably getting arcing at the contacts that's destroying them. You could try snubber networks across the contacts, but in all likelihood that will only delay the inevitable, and snubbers may short when they fail so the cure may be more hazardous than the disease. You should see if you can find electronic (triac) switches for these loads.

Both Fibaro and qubino should support at least 10Amps, how can you buon the with a 100watts of led lights? What would happen If you connect a heater?

Offline Catman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 12:11:33 pm »
Since the LEDs are inductive loads, you're probably getting arcing at the contacts that's destroying them. You could try snubber networks across the contacts, but in all likelihood that will only delay the inevitable, and snubbers may short when they fail so the cure may be more hazardous than the disease. You should see if you can find electronic (triac) switches for these loads.

Both Fibaro and qubino should support at least 10Amps, how can you buon the with a 100watts of led lights? What would happen If you connect a heater?

100w continous power does not account for the startup current of an inductive load. Heaters tend not to be inductive.

This may help

https://www.quora.com/What-is-inductive-load

C


Offline HSD99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2019, 02:03:19 pm »
Actually, AC-line powered LEDs can present a capacitive load on start-up, and an inductive load on turn-off.

An uncharged power supply capacitor looks like a dead short to the driving source, and the inrush current can be many times the rated lamp current when the driving relay closes. This large inrush current can degrade the relay contacts, leading to eventual failure.

There may be an inductive component present (many AC-line powered LED lamps use an inductor in series with the capacitive input stage to limit inrush current and provide EMI filtering) which will produce a large voltage spike (kickback) at the relay output when the relay opens. This spike can also damage the relay contacts. Snubber circuits can reduce or eliminate this kickback. Kickback voltage spikes are usually of short duration (microseconds) but can reach kiloVolt levels.

The severity of these effects is a function of the design of the power supply/driver circuitry in the LED lamp. I would expect well-known brands to have mitigated these effects, while an unknown LED lamp might not be as well-designed.

The problem comes if a large number of lamps are on a single circuit. Even if the lamps are good quality, the cumulative inrush or kickback of many lamps on the same circuit can do damage. This damage can also occur to an SSR (solid-state relay) as the power semiconductor components, usually thyristors, may be damaged by overcurrent and overvoltage.

Many of these problems first surfaced in the mid-1980s with the introduction of so-called Electronic Low-Voltage Transformers for 12 volt MR12 track lights. The designers of these devices failed to consider the impact of inrush current and inductive kickback on driving relays or solid-state dimmers when a large number of units were connected in parallel. 

Offline Cor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Karma: +8/-4
Re: Replacing a fibaro relais
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2019, 02:13:45 pm »
@HSD99: Many thans for your reply.

The spot leds in my garage are not of a well- known brand.  The solid state relais which I ordered ( more than 2 weeks ago >:( ) is about to arrive tomorrow. You are saying , it won't work? or shall I at least give it a try?

Any other recommendations?

Thanks,
Cor