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Author Topic: Water shut off valve  (Read 26346 times)

Offline hellovn

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2015, 07:03:31 pm »
The econet one sometimes does not open or close the valve completely. If there is a flood in my house, it would be a disaster. The DIY products do not report the value properly to vera :(. Anyway, the Fortrezz valve is just a peace of mind :)

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2015, 07:46:18 pm »
The econet one sometimes does not open or close the valve completely. If there is a flood in my house, it would be a disaster. The DIY products do not report the value properly to vera :(. Anyway, the Fortrezz valve is just a peace of mind :)

The DIY can report value just as good as any other device as long as you get the right one.

Search amazon, ebay, google for "CR05 Ball Valve" and you will find a 5 wire ball valve that along with say a mimolite or your choice of z-wave relay and sensor. Maybe for 75-100 you can have same or better as a 300.00 fortrezz wv-01. 

Offline jackbenimble333

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2016, 03:00:29 pm »
I just thought I would post my experience with a VeraPlus.

I have had a Fortrezz Water Valve paired with a Vera2 on UI4 for two years now.  It worked perfectly in "Water Alarm Mode".  Vera2 could close the valve either by pushing the device button or by a triggered scene from one of numerous Fortrezz water detectors I have spread around the house.  Because I was in Water Alarm Mode, I could not re-open the device with either the "On" or the "Off" button (Vera thought it was an appliance module).

I recently upgraded the Vera2 to a VeraPlus.  I had no difficulty unpairing from the old and re-pairing the device to the new controller.  VeraPlus quickly recognized the device as a Water Valve and gave me an "Open" and "Close" button.  Both buttons work in that I could open and close the valve by pressing them.  I had not expected the open button to work but it does.  This made me think that I had somehow put the device into "Water Level Mode" which is not what I wanted.

I did a couple of tests:

1.  I followed these instructions and it returned "0" which means Water Alarm Mode
Go to Device Options from your Vera water valve device.
Click 'Add configuration settings', enter 0 - monitor only - blank.
Hit the X to close the device settings box and save the settings to load it.
Go back into the device, Device Options, and read what value the valve has returned.
If the value is 255 it is running in water level mode, 0 it is running water alarm.

2.  I put a wet paper towel across the sensor nodes of the attached sensor wire.  It closed the valve.  It is my understanding that this sensor is disabled in "Water Level Mode" and enabled in "Water Alarm Mode" so I believe this confirmed that I am in Water Alarm Mode.

So, now with the VeraPlus I seem to have the best of both worlds.  I can toggle the valve open and closed at will with Vera.  And it works in Water Alarm Mode.  Nice! 

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2016, 12:10:28 pm »
I just thought I would post my experience with a VeraPlus.

I have had a Fortrezz Water Valve paired with a Vera2 on UI4 for two years now.  It worked perfectly in "Water Alarm Mode".  Vera2 could close the valve either by pushing the device button or by a triggered scene from one of numerous Fortrezz water detectors I have spread around the house.  Because I was in Water Alarm Mode, I could not re-open the device with either the "On" or the "Off" button (Vera thought it was an appliance module).

I recently upgraded the Vera2 to a VeraPlus.  I had no difficulty unpairing from the old and re-pairing the device to the new controller.  VeraPlus quickly recognized the device as a Water Valve and gave me an "Open" and "Close" button.  Both buttons work in that I could open and close the valve by pressing them.  I had not expected the open button to work but it does.  This made me think that I had somehow put the device into "Water Level Mode" which is not what I wanted.

I did a couple of tests:

1.  I followed these instructions and it returned "0" which means Water Alarm Mode
Go to Device Options from your Vera water valve device.
Click 'Add configuration settings', enter 0 - monitor only - blank.
Hit the X to close the device settings box and save the settings to load it.
Go back into the device, Device Options, and read what value the valve has returned.
If the value is 255 it is running in water level mode, 0 it is running water alarm.

2.  I put a wet paper towel across the sensor nodes of the attached sensor wire.  It closed the valve.  It is my understanding that this sensor is disabled in "Water Level Mode" and enabled in "Water Alarm Mode" so I believe this confirmed that I am in Water Alarm Mode.

So, now with the VeraPlus I seem to have the best of both worlds.  I can toggle the valve open and closed at will with Vera.  And it works in Water Alarm Mode.  Nice!

I think you just found out how your valve has always worked which is normal.

Both modes use a sensor to close the valve (could be a leak sensor or level sensor) just like you tested. The difference is in "water level mode" after the sensor untrips the valve automatically opens backup to start flowing water again. In water alarm mode the valve will stay closed until you press the button to open it back up (saying you checked and there is no leak were good to turn water back on).

You should be in Alarm mode for your application and water level mode is made for say filling your pool or something like that. When the level comes up and contacts the water pins the valve closes and no more water is flowing. Soon as the pool level goes down and no water is contacting the pins the valve automatically opens and starts flowing water again.

If your in the correct mode (Alarm Mode) your test would be to put the wet paper towel or dip the sensor probe in water (valve should close) then remove the probe and water valve should stay closed until you tell vera to open it or press the button on the valve to open it.

All of this is based that you have the probe directly "Associated" or linked to the valve and not to vera. If you have many sensors and they are all linked to vera (maybe not only water sensors) you can use vera's logic to do the same as above or more based on your own scene.

Also the new kid on the block with a cheaper price tag and Z-wave Plus is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XusTeefhPh8
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:12:59 pm by integlikewhoa »

Offline jswim788

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2016, 12:54:49 pm »
That's an interesting valve from Homeseer, but there are very few specifications on the web page.  No information on whether it is lead free or its temperature range.

I went in the more expensive direction with this valve from Valworx:  http://www.valworx.com/product/electric-actuated-lead-free-brass-ball-valve-34-120-vac

It has full specifications, has an internal heater to eliminate condensation, and works over a wide temperature range (important under my house where freezing temperatures are possible).  It is not Zwave enabled, but I can add Zwave switch to control it.  It has dry contacts to indicate close and open which can be connected to a sensor.  Definitely more expensive, but for me the clear specs made me more confident in using it for the water main.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2016, 01:40:25 pm »
That's an interesting valve from Homeseer, but there are very few specifications on the web page.  No information on whether it is lead free or its temperature range.

It's stainless steel so there no info of "lead free" like brass valves have. 

The temp info is in the manual "Operating Temp Range 5?C to 80?C".
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1248/3803/files/HS-WV100-Manual.pdf?14510621178035640250

I would think freezing would be a problem for any valve as then it would be an ice valve not a water valve.

Offline jackbenimble333

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2016, 12:48:41 pm »

I think you just found out how your valve has always worked which is normal.

Both modes use a sensor to close the valve (could be a leak sensor or level sensor) just like you tested. The difference is in "water level mode" after the sensor untrips the valve automatically opens backup to start flowing water again. In water alarm mode the valve will stay closed until you press the button to open it back up (saying you checked and there is no leak were good to turn water back on).


I don't think so.  Take a look at Reply No 10 on Page 1 of this thread.  That is how my valve used to work when I was on Vera2/UI4 and how the Valve Manual documentation says it is SUPPOSED to work when you are in flood mode.  You could close the valve with Vera but not re-open it.  To re-open it you had to physically go to the water valve and push the green button (after checking for leaks).  It was a safety feature that prevented the valve from being reactivated before checking for leaks.

Now it is working differently with VeraPlus/UI7.  I can close and open valve with the Vera.  It displays some "Device Busy" messages but the valve operates both directions.   I have verified that I am in flood mode by the two tests I described above in my previous post and now also with the test you described.  The Valve does not reopen when water is removed from the flood sensor that is directly hard wired to the valve.  It would open if I was in Water Level Mode and it does not so I am certain it is correctly in flood mode.

I lost a home and 40 cubic yards of my favorite possessions to a flood/mold event about 3 years ago.  Insurance covered about $150k and about $150k came out of my own pocket (insurance does not cover mold).  I won't bore you with my long story of woe but part of that $150k was the Fortrezz Valve and a whole slew of Fortrezz Flood/Freeze Alarms.  I am meticulous about water now.  If I leave my house even overnight I manually turn off the main water valve immediately below the Fortrezz Valve in my basement and if I am going to be gone more than 3 nights I also turn the water off at the city curb stop about 100 feet from my house.  The Fortrezz's job is just to protect the house when I am home asleep, working outside or away from home for a few hours to work or shop.

I personally would NEVER write a scene that automatically opened the valve.  But it is easy for me to imagine someone else who has not had my sad experience writing a Home to Vacation Mode scene which turned off the valve and a Vacation to Home Mode which automatically turned it back on.  Now suppose there had been a freeze event which caused a pipe to burst and had triggered a water sensor to close the valve (again).  There is quite a bit of water is in the plumbing even with the main valve off; my kitchen sink will run for more than a minute. So lets suppose that the same water which triggered that event also ruined the flood detector as those electronics are not very robust.  Now when that valve opens automatically the flood resumes and there is no working sensor to turn it off again.

I can live with how the valve is now but I think it was a better safety device when it worked the way it was designed.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2016, 02:20:30 pm »

I think you just found out how your valve has always worked which is normal.

Both modes use a sensor to close the valve (could be a leak sensor or level sensor) just like you tested. The difference is in "water level mode" after the sensor untrips the valve automatically opens backup to start flowing water again. In water alarm mode the valve will stay closed until you press the button to open it back up (saying you checked and there is no leak were good to turn water back on).


I don't think so.  Take a look at Reply No 10 on Page 1 of this thread.  That is how my valve used to work when I was on Vera2/UI4 and how the Valve Manual documentation says it is SUPPOSED to work when you are in flood mode.  You could close the valve with Vera but not re-open it.  To re-open it you had to physically go to the water valve and push the green button (after checking for leaks).  It was a safety feature that prevented the valve from being reactivated before checking for leaks.

I can live with how the valve is now but I think it was a better safety device when it worked the way it was designed.

Fortrezz has always answered my calls right away. I would call them and verify. Even if they say that's how it's supposed to be, you can your own scene to keep it closed until you manually override it. But I think if the valve closed and sent you an alarm, judging by what you described you wouldn't manually open it anyways (and It's not going to auto open as you have tested). So I don't see the big idea except to figure out what Fortrezz had in mind. The best way to go about that is to pickup the phone and ask Fortrezz.

EDIT: I just called them and asked for you. They said it is not supposed to open from Vera for the first 60 min. After 60min the lockout is removed and then you should be able to open it from vera. If it opens in less then 60min (which I assume it does based on your testing) then they said to contact VERA and have them fix it on their side.

Fortrezz
AUBURN HILLS CENTRE INDUSTRIAL PARK
1080 Centre Drive, SUITE C
Auburn Hills, Michigan 48326
(248) 481-7092

Offline jackbenimble333

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2016, 02:52:55 pm »

EDIT: I just called them and asked for you. They said it is not supposed to open from Vera for the first 60 min. After 60min the lockout is removed and then you should be able to open it from vera. If it opens in less then 60min (which I assume it does based on your testing) then they said to contact VERA and have them fix it on their side.


Thanks for making that call!   That was really nice and above and beyond the call!

Mine will definitely open from Vera after it has been closed.  The device on Vera the Vera Interface has a red message that says "Sorry the Node is busy please try ."  The message persists for a long time but eventually disappears. But I can open and close and open and close the valve repeatedly despite that message and the handle on the valve physically turns and the water goes on and off. 

For now I am not going to bother with having VERA try to fix it.  It is not that huge a problem for me as I will never automate a scene to open the valve.  I mainly posted to the thread above because I thought other people might be interested in the new behavior of the valve under VeraPlus/UI7 Firmware: 1.7.2138.

I can't figure out how to write a scene that would keep the valve closed and effectively disable the open button.  I guess I could write a PLEG scene that would persistently re-close it if some other scene tried to open it perhaps based on the value of a virtual switch set by my Flood Alarm Scene.  I am a newbie to PLEG but I will give that some thought.

Thanks again!


Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2016, 03:04:49 pm »

EDIT: I just called them and asked for you. They said it is not supposed to open from Vera for the first 60 min. After 60min the lockout is removed and then you should be able to open it from vera. If it opens in less then 60min (which I assume it does based on your testing) then they said to contact VERA and have them fix it on their side.


Thanks for making that call!   That was really nice and above and beyond the call!

Mine will definitely open from Vera after it has been closed.  The device on Vera the Vera Interface has a red message that says "Sorry the Node is busy please try ."  The message persists for a long time but eventually disappears. But I can open and close and open and close the valve repeatedly despite that message and the handle on the valve physically turns and the water goes on and off. 

For now I am not going to bother with having VERA try to fix it.  It is not that huge a problem for me as I will never automate a scene to open the valve.  I mainly posted to the thread above because I thought other people might be interested in the new behavior of the valve under VeraPlus/UI7 Firmware: 1.7.2138.

I can't figure out how to write a scene that would keep the valve closed and effectively disable the open button.  I guess I could write a PLEG scene that would persistently re-close it if some other scene tried to open it perhaps based on the value of a virtual switch set by my Flood Alarm Scene.  I am a newbie to PLEG but I will give that some thought.

Thanks again!

If it were me trying to keep it closed I would create a virtual switch to open and close it and use a PLEG condition to only allow opening if a water leak has not been detected since last opened using order of operation.

So the original switch I would Hide from the Ui or Mobile app so it can not be used by anyone. Only use the new Virtual switch which will now have a built in safety on the open side only.  To over come this you would have to manually use the valve which will work and PLEG will then see the water leak is now not after the valve was last operated and it will all go back to working on the mobile app.

Honestly I used to use Imperihome and not the stock Vera app and it would allow a confirmation click button or code to be entered before a device could be used if you choose. I would just setup that on my phone and not put the valve on anyone else imperihome in the house. So Only I could open it and I needed to enter a code to do it. This will prevent anyone else from opening it on the phone and myself from doing it without entering a code. But I'm assuming you use the stock app and it automatically puts every device on every one in the house phone and has not option for lockouts and such.

Offline jackbenimble333

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2016, 04:16:20 pm »


I can't figure out how to write a scene that would keep the valve closed and effectively disable the open button.  I guess I could write a PLEG scene that would persistently re-close it if some other scene tried to open it perhaps based on the value of a virtual switch set by my Flood Alarm Scene.  I am a newbie to PLEG but I will give that some thought.

Thanks again!

If it were me trying to keep it closed I would create a virtual switch to open and close it and use a PLEG condition to only allow opening if a water leak has not been detected since last opened using order of operation.

So the original switch I would Hide from the Ui or Mobile app so it can not be used by anyone. Only use the new Virtual switch which will now have a built in safety on the open side only.  To over come this you would have to manually use the valve which will work and PLEG will then see the water leak is now not after the valve was last operated and it will all go back to working on the mobile app.

Honestly I used to use Imperihome and not the stock Vera app and it would allow a confirmation click button or code to be entered before a device could be used if you choose. I would just setup that on my phone and not put the valve on anyone else imperihome in the house. So Only I could open it and I needed to enter a code to do it. This will prevent anyone else from opening it on the phone and myself from doing it without entering a code. But I'm assuming you use the stock app and it automatically puts every device on every one in the house phone and has not option for lockouts and such.

Wow!  Terrific Hints! I am indeed using the stock Vera UI and App.  I didn't even realize I had a choice. LOL

I am off on another exciting technical adventure in home automation!

I think I can figure out how to make PLEG do something along those lines.  I will have to research on "order of operation".  But I can usually figure out technical stuff!  I use virtual switches in some of my scenes and I know how to make them trigger stuff in PLEG.

Update:  I found the PLEG Basics PDF.  I think it gives enough hints to let me do this. 

I did not know there was a way to hide devices from the Interface either in the Computer UI or the Mobile App.  I will need to look into that.  I wonder if you hide them once and they are hidden in both places or if you need to hide them for the UI and the App separately?  And once hidden, how do I unhide them if I want them back? 

Update:  OK, I have hiding stuff figured out.  That is easy LUUP code that I can activate from a scene.

I bet I can while-away 8 or 16 hours figuring this stuff out and getting it working.  :-)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 05:22:32 pm by jackbenimble333 »

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2016, 05:43:59 pm »

Wow!  Terrific Hints! I am indeed using the stock Vera UI and App.  I didn't even realize I had a choice. LOL

I am off on another exciting technical adventure in home automation!
For Apple devices, HomeWave is probley the most popular.

For Andriod devices, Imperihome is the most popular. Imperihome now works on apple also but it's newer and not as feature rich as Homewave thats been in the apple game for some time. So this is a good option for both but just know it's better or has alot more features on andriod then apple. 

I think I can figure out how to make PLEG do something along those lines.  I will have to research on "order of operation".  But I can usually figure out technical stuff!  I use virtual switches in some of my scenes and I know how to make them trigger stuff in PLEG.

Update:  I found the PLEG Basics PDF.  I think it gives enough hints to let me do this. 

Page 15 Sequence Expressions is what is called.

Just use something like  if "WaterLeak; WaterValve" then don't open valve. 

I did not know there was a way to hide devices from the Interface either in the Computer UI or the Mobile App.  I will need to look into that.  I wonder if you hide them once and they are hidden in both places or if you need to hide them for the UI and the App separately?  And once hidden, how do I unhide them if I want them back? 

Update:  OK, I have hiding stuff figured out.  That is easy LUUP code that I can activate from a scene.

I bet I can while-away 8 or 16 hours figuring this stuff out and getting it working.  :-)

I used to use the startup Luup (rather then a scene) which If i remember was under the settings where the serial port configuration is in your vera UI. You put the hide luup code in there, reboot and every start up it hides the devices( since it runs that code at startup). If you ever want to show it then you remove that line (if you have more then one device hidden) and reboot then this time it will show backup. i used to have some weird devices that created several unused children that I wanted to hide to keep things clean.

Offline jackbenimble333

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Re: Water shut off valve
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2016, 09:15:41 am »

Page 15 Sequence Expressions is what is called.

Just use something like  if "WaterLeak; WaterValve" then don't open valve. 


I got all of this working in PLEG.  Rather than turn my mechanical water valve on and off 400 times while I was testing my PLEG Scenes, I just used a Virtual Switch as a proxy to simulate the valve so I could activate it and deactivate it from another control virtual switch.

In normal mode the control virtual switch can turn on and off the proxy mechanical switch at will.

In Flood Activated Mode the proxy mechanical switch gets "closed" by the flood detected scene and the control virtual switch will no longer control the proxy mechanical switch.

And Normal Mode can be re-activated by going to the proxy (after checking for and fixing simulated leaks :-) ) and pressing the proxy on switch as if it were the green button on the real valve.
 
I could easily substitute the real physical valve into my PLEG in place of the proxy test valve with just minor tweaks.  I am not sure if I am going to do that or not.  As I explained in a previous post, I am extremely paranoid about water leaks as they have cost me a ruined home and a lot of money.  I think that perhaps I am best off if I stick to the "Keep it Simple Stupid" principle for this most mission critical function for my Vera.  I have read plenty of threads in this forum about Vera being flakey and even a few threads about PLEG not working properly after automatic upgrades.  I am not sure if I will be helping myself by introducing my amateurish PLEG code into an already less than stable environment.  I am thinking about it.

It was my first and a very interesting exercise in configuring PLEG and was a great learning experience.  I now have a basic knowledge of triggers, conditions and actions and I also have rudimentary skill at analyzing timestamps and true/false conditions to see why stuff is not working.   I also have a beginner knowledge of the PLEG UI which is good but also complex.  Thanks for your hints and guidance!