Author Topic: Vera 6 years later..... Home Assistant!  (Read 4927 times)

Offline undertoe

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 01:00:15 pm »
You have a link? What I am talking about is a condition in PLEG for example (A1 AND B1 AND B1;A1) is much more difficult to write in home assistant. I'm pretty sure that single condition would take at least 3 automations in home assistant. How would you write it?

can you write out  not so much the program, but what you want to do

example:

   condition 1: someone triggers motion during 8a and 5pm on a weekday for 1 minute
   condition 2: if condition 1 is triggered then after that someone turns on a light with in 10 minutes

Fire automation
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Offline undertoe

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 02:18:52 pm »
I'm curious about what you didn't like about openHAB.  I'm starting to use it and I find the Z-wave support is quite good.  Chris is really responsive and the issues are getting very low.  I don't run many Z-wave devices with it yet, but I'm ramping up and don't see any problems.  The openHAB rules are a bit convoluted, but I'm getting used to them.  And it is not too hard to bridge devices on openHAB to openLuup where I have a familiar automation environment.

I had tried it about 2 years ago. I thought the configuration was to involved and the UI was not where it should have been. Yes the automation rules are far to complex than they should be. It seems to have evolved a lot from where it was when i tried it but still not my cup of tea. I love all the UI technologies and templating that HA uses along with the ease to switch around the interface. Im not saying openHab is bad at all its a very strong second. Of course these is all my own opinion.
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Offline wilme2

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 03:51:44 pm »

Initially my plan was to move everything over including zwave. What is ultimately holding me back is my complex PLEG automations. Re-doing these in home assistant would be a massive undertaking.  The only reason I investigated home assistant was from all the negative feedback on this forum and my fear that vera may fail me someday.

Yea i hear ya but I can tell you this I ran a ton of PLEG and had to buy it if i ever switched my vera or got a new one. I have purchased it 3 times. Converting my PLEG realistically took me about a 4-6 hours. If you throw me a screenshot of your most complex PLEG i'll give you an example in HA. Might help you make the move when you see how easy it is.

Yeah definitely would take me days and a partial system for weeks to transfer everything over. I have a PLEG just for my kitchen that has 40 conditions. Also, the overall logic is different which would take some rethinking. I use a lot of sequence expressions in PLEG (x happens and then y happens) and home assistant does not appear to handle that.

I am with you two about PLEG.  That is what ties me to Vera (very, very, good work by RTS).  I have 12 PLEGs running, and can make it do anything I can dream up.  I heavily use self re-trigger timers aka schedules, and I don't see that in the example automations.  I would have to see some really complex examples before I get interested.

I sure do like the fact HA runs on Docker.  Would be trivial to load in on my Synology NAS via Docker.
Long Live UI5!  (OK finally made the switch to UI7 in January 2018, and am pretty happy....)

Offline pentium

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 05:05:25 pm »
undertoe, you have made my year.  I am going to re read these pages a few times and I am an instant convert.  I hope that I can lean on you a bit to help me get started.  I used to be a decent coder so I am good on logic and stuff, but what I call coding and what this new generation call coding are pretty different and I struggle with things that aren't more English oriented.  I would really like to be able to keep my pleg but I don't think I have anything so complicated that with a some examples I could probably get there.  Due to massive complications with vera, I have devolved my requirements or demands of HA to a bare minimum.  I had to do this when I was forced to convert to UI7.  My primary requirements are some Monoprice motion detectors, blue iris connection or some way to use cameras, and my alarm panel (Honeywell ademco usb).  I have to run a schedule to run my hot water recirculation system every 15 minutes for 5 minutes, and it is nice if my wife can start her hot curlers from her car on the way home.  Sending an email or prowler alert would be crucial.  Have I stated any requirement that I couldn't accommodate with your solution?  I don't know if you feel that you can't list any brand names but if not, could you help me identify the equipment that I need?  the z-wave stick, the pi, whatever it take to make the pi work.  If there is a way and you prefer to send it privately, I would be happy to give some contact information.  My edge is going offline about 5 times a day now and I need something before I go on a trip.  I am so happy.  I just can't keep investing so much time in vera.  Anything you can share to get me started would be so appreciated.  And god bless Richard for pleg.

Offline jswim788

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2018, 05:24:48 pm »
Be careful about using a Rasperry Pi if you will depend on it.  The Pi is great but fragile.  The power supply is a weak point - I've had the Pi destroy 2 SD cards on power glitches where the Vera kept right on going.  So I added a UPS and now it is good.  But then your SD card will eventually wear out without warning.  So you probably want to use an SSD which is designed for lots of writes and has mechanisms to tell the OS that something bad is happening.  I'm leaning towards an Intel NUC in the future but there are many other choices.  The Pi is good starting point, but not necessarily a great long term solution unless you add more around it.

Offline jeubanks

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 06:06:40 pm »
undertoe, you have made my year.  I am going to re read these pages a few times and I am an instant convert.  I hope that I can lean on you a bit to help me get started.  I used to be a decent coder so I am good on logic and stuff, but what I call coding and what this new generation call coding are pretty different and I struggle with things that aren't more English oriented.  I would really like to be able to keep my pleg but I don't think I have anything so complicated that with a some examples I could probably get there.  Due to massive complications with vera, I have devolved my requirements or demands of HA to a bare minimum.  I had to do this when I was forced to convert to UI7.  My primary requirements are some Monoprice motion detectors, blue iris connection or some way to use cameras, and my alarm panel (Honeywell ademco usb).  I have to run a schedule to run my hot water recirculation system every 15 minutes for 5 minutes, and it is nice if my wife can start her hot curlers from her car on the way home.  Sending an email or prowler alert would be crucial.  Have I stated any requirement that I couldn't accommodate with your solution?  I don't know if you feel that you can't list any brand names but if not, could you help me identify the equipment that I need?  the z-wave stick, the pi, whatever it take to make the pi work.  If there is a way and you prefer to send it privately, I would be happy to give some contact information.  My edge is going offline about 5 times a day now and I need something before I go on a trip.  I am so happy.  I just can't keep investing so much time in vera.  Anything you can share to get me started would be so appreciated.  And god bless Richard for pleg.

Be aware that there is no remote access native with HA like with Vera, nor is there a native mobile app.  You will have to open a port on your firewall, setup forwarding, get your SSL cert (which are all easy BTW).  But just be aware of this and knowing that it's not a cake-walk.  There also aren't multi-users which isn't a big issue as most config is NOT done through the web interface but there are some dangerous areas still.  So you will have to work out a page <card> setup for your wife to use comfortably if she's not very techie.

Not trying to steer you away just giving you info based on your "requirements".  It's all doable, just takes a bit of time and patience.

Offline jswim788

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 07:04:35 pm »
It is possible to use services such as weaved (now remot3.it) and dataplicity to get around the port forwarding, but I've had to go the SSL route with port forwarding in the end as my workplace disallowed those services.

Offline kigmatzomat

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 01:10:48 am »
What I am talking about is a condition in PLEG for example (A1 AND B1 AND B1;A1) is much more difficult to write in home assistant. I'm pretty sure that single condition would take at least 3 automations in home assistant. How would you write it?

Chiming in here as someone who has migrated to Homeseer.  (Pricey, very stable, very fast)

On HS to get this logic your event would be initiated by the trigger "IF DeviceA has a value that just changed" and would have additional conditions of "If DeviceA has a value equal to x" and  "If DeviceB has a value equal to y".  This would ensure that it only triggers when A happens after B, and when both A and B are in the right mode.

Or clauses in HS split triggering events. So if your pleg was
(A1 AND B1 AND B1;A1) OR (C1 AND D1 AND C1;D1)

Then the  homeseer event would look like

IF DeviceA has a value that just changed
And If DeviceA has a value equal to x
And if DeviceB has a value equal to y
OR IF DeviceC has a value that just changed
And If DeviceC has a value equal to q
And if DeviceD has a value equal to r
THEN (do stuff)


The HS event system has a few holes where complex schedules are concerned. Weekdays/weekends and day/night are easy but it can require an array of "..And time after 3pm And time before 5pm" on each event to deal with things in time bands.  Or get the easy trigger plug in to address with a gui, which I did so I could use a single defined schedule for a number of events and only have to do the edit in one place. Although there is a virtual device object that could probably handle it natively.

Offline zedrally

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 01:22:52 am »
Thanks for the explanation on how you can do sequences with HS, it's not as straightforward as PLEG which is the only reason why I've hung onto Vera for this long.
One further question is how can time schedules be carried over Midnight into the next day.
It's all straight forward with PLEG using a schedule and NOT (!).


Still not convinced that the leap of faith is getting closer, but with Jeubanks Vera PlugIn it is definitely getting eerily close.
Living in the Land of Oz, give me a vegemite sandwich. Home Seer, Vera Lite & Edge, Popp, Black Cat Smart Hub & Vera G, Black Cat Lite 1 & 2's a Black Cat Dimmer or 2, Fantem Tec and then some  Black Cat Cat's Eye PIR's & Door-Window Sensors, RFXComm, Broadlink RMPro & Mini plus a Z-UNO or 2.

Offline undertoe

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 10:09:41 am »

Be aware that there is no remote access native with HA like with Vera, nor is there a native mobile app.  You will have to open a port on your firewall, setup forwarding, get your SSL cert (which are all easy BTW).  But just be aware of this and knowing that it's not a cake-walk.  There also aren't multi-users which isn't a big issue as most config is NOT done through the web interface but there are some dangerous areas still.  So you will have to work out a page <card> setup for your wife to use comfortably if she's not very techie.

Not trying to steer you away just giving you info based on your "requirements".  It's all doable, just takes a bit of time and patience.

These are all good points. However there is a native ios and android app. Which is how it supports GPS for device tracking. The great thing is the UI on the native mobile app looks what you see in the browser. I point this out cause some vera custom plugins don't even show in the ios apps you just can use them in the web ui
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Offline undertoe

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 10:11:06 am »
undertoe, you have made my year.  I am going to re read these pages a few times and I am an instant convert.  I hope that I can lean on you a bit to help me get started.  I used to be a decent coder so I am good on logic and stuff, but what I call coding and what this new generation call coding are pretty different and I struggle with things that aren't more English oriented.  I would really like to be able to keep my pleg but I don't think I have anything so complicated that with a some examples I could probably get there.  Due to massive complications with vera, I have devolved my requirements or demands of HA to a bare minimum.  I had to do this when I was forced to convert to UI7.  My primary requirements are some Monoprice motion detectors, blue iris connection or some way to use cameras, and my alarm panel (Honeywell ademco usb).  I have to run a schedule to run my hot water recirculation system every 15 minutes for 5 minutes, and it is nice if my wife can start her hot curlers from her car on the way home.  Sending an email or prowler alert would be crucial.  Have I stated any requirement that I couldn't accommodate with your solution?  I don't know if you feel that you can't list any brand names but if not, could you help me identify the equipment that I need?  the z-wave stick, the pi, whatever it take to make the pi work.  If there is a way and you prefer to send it privately, I would be happy to give some contact information.  My edge is going offline about 5 times a day now and I need something before I go on a trip.  I am so happy.  I just can't keep investing so much time in vera.  Anything you can share to get me started would be so appreciated.  And god bless Richard for pleg.

No problem, PM me i will give you my email and google talk. Would be happy to help.
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Offline rigpapa

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Re: Vera 6 years later..... Home Assistant!
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 11:31:06 am »
Just to +1 here, I am also a HomeAssistant convert and a contributor to pyvera, which is the Python library underlying the Vera integration. Since I'm straddling the two systems, the reliability of that interface is important to me, and it works. I still eat my own dog food, which is to say, I use my own plugins on my production Vera, but all of my other automations are Hass-based. I also have an increasing number of my Z-wave devices on a Z-stick connected to the Hass system (if I replace a device or Vera chokes on it, I just pair it to the Z-stick on Hass). No issues with any devices so far. I have a homebrew dashboard (almost pure JavaScript) that runs transparently with both systems, so in addition to their native UIs, I have a seamless UI for the family. The Hass native UI is, however, very approachable and does not suffer as brutally from performance problems at scale as Vera's UI does, and is far more configurable. Automation-wise, I have not found anything I can't do on Hass that is done on Vera; the biggest startup challenge is that you have to stop thinking of the Vera way of doing things and find the Hass way. Overall, my HA is incredibly stable, and you know... happy wife, happy life.
Author of Rachio, Deus Ex Machina II, Intesis WMP Gateway, SiteSensor, DelayLight, Auto Virtual Thermostat and VirtualSensor plugins. Vera Plus w/100+ Z-wave devices. Vera3 sandbox.

Offline jeubanks

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Re: Vera 6 years later.....
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 11:39:31 am »
What I am talking about is a condition in PLEG for example (A1 AND B1 AND B1;A1) is much more difficult to write in home assistant. I'm pretty sure that single condition would take at least 3 automations in home assistant. How would you write it?

Chiming in here as someone who has migrated to Homeseer.  (Pricey, very stable, very fast)

On HS to get this logic your event would be initiated by the trigger "IF DeviceA has a value that just changed" and would have additional conditions of "If DeviceA has a value equal to x" and  "If DeviceB has a value equal to y".  This would ensure that it only triggers when A happens after B, and when both A and B are in the right mode.

Or clauses in HS split triggering events. So if your pleg was
(A1 AND B1 AND B1;A1) OR (C1 AND D1 AND C1;D1)

Then the  homeseer event would look like

IF DeviceA has a value that just changed
And If DeviceA has a value equal to x
And if DeviceB has a value equal to y
OR IF DeviceC has a value that just changed
And If DeviceC has a value equal to q
And if DeviceD has a value equal to r
THEN (do stuff)


The HS event system has a few holes where complex schedules are concerned. Weekdays/weekends and day/night are easy but it can require an array of "..And time after 3pm And time before 5pm" on each event to deal with things in time bands.  Or get the easy trigger plug in to address with a gui, which I did so I could use a single defined schedule for a number of events and only have to do the edit in one place. Although there is a virtual device object that could probably handle it natively.

To work around the scheduling use the plugin EasyTrigger.  Makes dealing with dates, times, scheduling much easier!

Offline jeubanks

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Re: Vera 6 years later..... Home Assistant!
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 11:44:35 am »
Just to +1 here, I am also a HomeAssistant convert and a contributor to pyvera, which is the Python library underlying the Vera integration. Since I'm straddling the two systems, the reliability of that interface is important to me, and it works. I still eat my own dog food, which is to say, I use my own plugins on my production Vera, but all of my other automations are Hass-based. I also have an increasing number of my Z-wave devices on a Z-stick connected to the Hass system (if I replace a device or Vera chokes on it, I just pair it to the Z-stick on Hass). No issues with any devices so far. I have a homebrew dashboard (almost pure JavaScript) that runs transparently with both systems, so in addition to their native UIs, I have a seamless UI for the family. The Hass native UI is, however, very approachable and does not suffer as brutally from performance problems at scale as Vera's UI does, and is far more configurable. Automation-wise, I have not found anything I can't do on Hass that is done on Vera; the biggest startup challenge is that you have to stop thinking of the Vera way of doing things and find the Hass way. Overall, my HA is incredibly stable, and you know... happy wife, happy life.

I took your approach but with HomeSeer.  I still use Vera for my ZigBee devices as that is still an area where HS is lacking.  So I'm writing a plugin for HomeSeer that interfaces with Vera and connects to all of the devices mirrors them into HS.  This way you can use all of the HS event system with the devices in Vera.  Think of OpenLuup but with a big price tag! :) 

Hey Zed I have a new scene integration system working also.  Native response speeds for Security Devices (ie motion sensors).

Offline pentium

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Re: Vera 6 years later..... Home Assistant!
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 12:33:42 pm »
Thank you Eubanks.  I'm glad you brought up those things because I really do need to consider my wife's access.  I will definitely take those things to heart when I proceed.  Hopefully I can find a middle ground.  As I sit here right now, my vera edge went offline last night about two hours after leaving the house taking away all of the remote capabilities that I have come to depend upon.  Right now I have to decide how much more time I am willing to invest in vera or just make the break and cut my losses.  Again, I appreciate your input.