We have moved at community.getvera.com

Author Topic: Line Voltage Thermostast  (Read 39511 times)

Offline CaSA

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 03:28:49 pm »
Yes, the solution offered with the ControlByWeb unit is a good one. I'm actually more familiar with this stuff as this is the usual solution for "simple" systems (read, when Crestron is not warranted), but I really think that what most people are on the lookout for is a retrofit unit rather than anything involving fishing, holes in walls and whatnot. At least that's where the frustration has been coming from. We started looking into Zwave for simpler, more cost effective solutions, but the lack of a product for such a simple use has really been a setback. The people we offer Zwave to don't want to hear about re-wiring their houses... That's why we decided to do one ourselves ! I'm new to this forum, but if there is interest, I'll post our progress here.

Offline mathieuc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 02:38:08 am »
Hi T1000,

I will be interested in your thermostat solution as I live in Québec too (Laval) and I cannot believe that there is not enough market here in the north for that... They do dimmer, switch and outlet z-wave or zig-bee compatible but no line voltage thermostat... Also the challenge will be the price, because having to buy 1 HVAC thermostat at around 200-300$ for a whole house is not bad, but with line voltage you need 1 for each room so the price must be under 100$ each (even less) to be appealing to do a whole house project. I might need as much as 10 for my house to control all baseboard heater...


Offline CaSA

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 04:36:55 pm »
@mathieuc : I hear ya ! I find it hard to believe as well, hence the decision to look into it. Above the pricing issue you mention, the certification issue is a big pain as well. Any high voltage stuff requires rigorous specs and testing and I sure hope we won't sink our boat with that. It's pretty hard to say who would be interested, I know that Quebec and these parts are big on baseboards, but I don't know how big... I'll eventually start a thread on here to probe the interest of fellow zwave users. In the meantime, we're good, summer's here :)

Offline richard_canada

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 04:03:05 pm »
Hello,

I set up a line voltage baseboard zwave controlled house in Charlevoix Québec years ago (Vera 1 now on a Vera 2) using 18 Aube relays placed in the baseboard heaters. I used the now discontinued Intermac CA8900 thermostats (I assume the 2gig thermostats can replace them). It is used in a rental property so I can turn up before client arrive and down when they leave (or set them at ridiculously high settings/ people think by setting it at 30 the room will heat up faster...). My electrician been very familar with Aube had no issues with my configuration.

Salut.

Richard. 
Vera2 (UI4) 1.1.1245, Kwikset deadbolt, Leviton VRI06-1LX x 6, VRCS4-1LX, HSM100 x 2, Intermatic CA3000 x 5, CA8900 Thermostats (baseboard w/relay) x 18, Pan BB-HCM531CE x 2, Foscam Cam./// Vera  UI5, Foscam x2, CT30 x2, CT100x2 (baseboard wi/ elay). /// Vera 3 UI5 Panasonic x 2, C100 (oil battery)

Offline CaSA

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 08:39:10 pm »
Salut Richard !
That's a great setup, but it did require re-wiring between the wall thermostat and the Aube relay. That works great in a build/renovate context, but it's not very efficient as a retrofit solution. The other issue, albeit a small one, is that the relay is either opened or closed. It won't "cycle" or "pulse" your baseboard as a regular electronic thermostat would, thus overshooting the target temperature every time. It's not huge, but it will eventually end up costing more on the long run as a bit of electricity is wasted on every cycle.
We are still working on this, even got a working prototype running, but it's an absolute pain. There is red tape everywhere I look and the "ZWave alliance" does not look keen on helping the small guys get started. The worst red tape comes from CSA, as it should. If anyone knows of an electronic, line-voltage thermostat OEM manufacturer, we're having the hardest time locating one. I'm about to board a plane to China and knock on doors !

Offline richard_canada

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2012, 01:08:14 am »
Hello,

The Aube relay can be installed in the baseboard or in the side of the old line voltage thermostat power box in retrofix situation (If wired correctly both live and live ground should arrive and leave the power box/ if the electrician just lopped the live line your out of luck). Aube have a mechanical and a solid state version (could pulse but I do not believe any Zwave thermostat could drive the pulse). Both provide the 24 volt to power the thermostat. Aartech supply the Aube (and MCV) products in Canada.

Richard.
Vera2 (UI4) 1.1.1245, Kwikset deadbolt, Leviton VRI06-1LX x 6, VRCS4-1LX, HSM100 x 2, Intermatic CA3000 x 5, CA8900 Thermostats (baseboard w/relay) x 18, Pan BB-HCM531CE x 2, Foscam Cam./// Vera  UI5, Foscam x2, CT30 x2, CT100x2 (baseboard wi/ elay). /// Vera 3 UI5 Panasonic x 2, C100 (oil battery)

Offline CaSA

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 05:18:56 pm »
Hello Richard,
Did you try the in-wall setup yourself ? I'm curious as to the heat dissipation within the wall. The SSR must heat up a fair bit I would think ? Also, how did you come about making it somewhat "code proof" ? I'm looking down both avenues right now. Red tape on creating a device (even on the Zwave side!) makes me wonder how this will ever be worth my while... except for the bragging rights of course  ;D

Offline richard_canada

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 09:25:01 am »
Hello T1000,

I did the retrofit install and it worked OK. I am not sure about heat dissipation but it seems to be how Aube suggest the relay can be installed (I confirmed with AUBE/Honeywell that an in wall install was OK however this is not the case for the RT850T Solid State Relay). The older Intermatic thermostat is better than the 2Gig one, because it reports the locally set temperature (2Gig does not), because it does not require beaming and because it only cost $75. Other thermostats cost $150 and are over kill (no need for sheduling, or cooling, or fan control). With the relay times at least 10 thermostats per home (I have 18) is a problem. Note that in UI4 a thermostat was a smaller frame and in Ui5 it's much larger, times 18 it takes a lot of screen space.

What do you meen by "code proof"

Wiring and relay placing possibilities diagram  attached (as suggested by Aube).
(I used a smaller and horizontally placed box to hide it behind the thermostat
a metal plate "cover" is required by code)

Richard.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 12:26:43 am by richard_canada »
Vera2 (UI4) 1.1.1245, Kwikset deadbolt, Leviton VRI06-1LX x 6, VRCS4-1LX, HSM100 x 2, Intermatic CA3000 x 5, CA8900 Thermostats (baseboard w/relay) x 18, Pan BB-HCM531CE x 2, Foscam Cam./// Vera  UI5, Foscam x2, CT30 x2, CT100x2 (baseboard wi/ elay). /// Vera 3 UI5 Panasonic x 2, C100 (oil battery)

guest18309

  • Guest
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 11:09:56 am »
Hi,

I live in PQ too and work at an electrical reseller company as a home autopmation specialist. I want to let you know that Honeywell/Aube now make a wireless control system for baseboard heating. The technology is called RedLink eConnect and it can be accessed over the internet by a gateway sold by Honeywell too. You can find more information on the Honeywell website (sorry I can't post external links)  All you have to do is install the wireless relays in your baseboards and place the wireless thermostal on your wall.

I've asked my Honeywell sales representativeand unfortunately for those interested in home automation with this technology, Honeywell doesn't distribute any integration protocol...

Regards

Offline TheAce

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2012, 10:34:10 pm »
I know this is about 9 months old. . .but to the OP, I also live in Chicago and have one room with 220v baseboard heaters.  It had an old mechanical relay on it and a 24v traditional thermostat until the mechanical relay failed a year or two ago.  I got an Aube on ebay for about $50 and it's terrific.  I'm going to try to connect a Trane or similar to it shortly in preparation for the fall when I'll start needing it again in that room.

Offline Michele

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: +0/-3
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2012, 01:49:32 am »
Any updates on this?  I have a 110 v. electric baseboard heater controlled by a line voltage thermostat.  I'd like to control it with Vera but I haven't found any Z-wave line voltage thermostats and I've searched the web high and low.  I just want something I can drop in without messing with realys and such.

Offline richard_canada

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2012, 09:05:48 pm »
Michele,

My solution is not very difficult to implement. Because you are dealing with line voltage
you will innevitably have to deal with the high voltage. Most baseboards are 208 or 220volt
though (be careful 220v can be deadly). In many cases the relay can be supplied by the
baseboard manifacturer and located in their basebord. But I agree that eventually someome will
/should come up with and integrated solution. I have been using CT100 thermostats with and
without 24v power.

Richard
Vera2 (UI4) 1.1.1245, Kwikset deadbolt, Leviton VRI06-1LX x 6, VRCS4-1LX, HSM100 x 2, Intermatic CA3000 x 5, CA8900 Thermostats (baseboard w/relay) x 18, Pan BB-HCM531CE x 2, Foscam Cam./// Vera  UI5, Foscam x2, CT30 x2, CT100x2 (baseboard wi/ elay). /// Vera 3 UI5 Panasonic x 2, C100 (oil battery)

Offline CaSA

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 09:36:36 pm »
Hey guys,
Of course this is a side project, but I intend to do it right (no house burning down on my watch...) We do have a working prototype but there are two issues with it, both pertaining to red tape (CSA/UL issue and patent issue). I'm heading to Shenzen again in February, there's still hope
Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath  ;D

Offline automator.app

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Karma: +2/-1
Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 11:01:29 pm »
A triac based z-wave replacement for my 12 line voltage thermostats would be awesome.  Add z-wave energy reporting to them and I would be a happy customer.
Automator.app is dead.

Offline patrick

  • Sr. Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 04:06:37 am »
For those using the Aube relays - what cycle settings did you use (cycles per hour, max duty time, ...)?  Did you experience any issues with fluctuating temperatures since those thermostats weren't designed with baseboards in mind?

I'm still trying to decide if its worth it to convert one or more rooms from a line-voltage thermostate to the Aube+Trane combo.