Author Topic: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering  (Read 215597 times)

Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 07:50:12 pm »
Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.

Absolutely.....saftey always comes first. The final install will be using aluminum cased 1.5K thermal resistors (picture below).
They can be mounted in the lighting can or in our case we are remote mounting them to an aluminum plate that forms a great heat sink. These should not be used inside a wall switch or in a plastic enclosure....this is where common sense needs to be used.

I will post a finished photo tomorrow ..... end results are stable dimming rates and No Flicker for 10 different styles and brands of LED Lighting! The lights still cannot go below a 10% dim.....thats where they stop but the benefits are obvious. We have switched to an EcoSmart 9 watt (40 watt equivalent) LED bulb and they are working great for general overhead lighting in our yachts. These put out 3,000 K light temp and I wish I could get them closer to 2500....just a little more yellow would make them perfect.

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Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

Offline pgrover516

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 08:02:41 pm »
Awesome! Now where do I buy it?   :P
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Offline guessed

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 08:32:34 pm »
@TimAlls,
A number of Home Depot's EcoSmart line are made by Lighting Sciences Group.  The model numbers of the form *W27* are the 2700K lights, which aren't always available via Home Depot, but are often available on other Websites for about the same price as what HD charges.

Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 08:52:50 pm »
Awesome! Now where do I buy it?   :P
Digikey.com.....in stock 6 bucks a pop but well worth it .....
The EcoSmarts bulbs are 10 dollars each at the Home Depot....the best buy I have seen yet.

@Guessed,
Thanks I will go online and check it out. At full intensity they look exactly like a normal bulb, but as they dim the color gets whiter.

Regards
Tim Alls

Offline big517

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 05:23:36 am »
Where did you get these resistors? I like the built on heat sink. I think I'm giving it a test run this weekend or as soon as my electrician can help out... This should bring some sanity back to my lighting situation.


Offline autotoronto

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 07:26:28 am »
Remember they do need to be mounted to an external heatsink, hence the flat base and the lugs; the case itself isn't sufficient for much power dissipation.

Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 11:11:31 am »
Where did you get these resistors? I like the built on heat sink. I think I'm giving it a test run this weekend or as soon as my electrician can help out... This should bring some sanity back to my lighting situation.
The resistors can be purchased from Digikey.com $3.30 each http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/KAL25FB1K50/KAL25FB1K50-ND/1646191
I will be testing heat discharge on a standard 4 inch can today.

Keep in mind that my testing was ONLY on a Leviton Brand 1000w dimmer.....others could be different. The resistor allows the dimmer to fully function even with no other loads connected.

Heat is the big issue and caution must be taken to insure a safe install.

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Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

Offline pgrover516

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 02:43:30 pm »
Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.

I will post a finished photo tomorrow ..... end results are stable dimming rates and No Flicker for 10 different styles and brands of LED Lighting!

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Great work! Would love to see pics of your installation, Thanks
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Offline autotoronto

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2012, 03:23:47 pm »
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.

Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2012, 05:23:22 pm »
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.
Here is a photo of a standard can light.....the small rectangle in the bottom with two wires attached is a thermal overload circuit. If the light fixture gets too hot the power shuts off automatically. We are mounting the resistor nearby so that excessive heat from a malfunction will shut the circuit down and not allow anything to catch fire. I wll run the circuit 24 hours then check it with a thermal temperature gauge.
more to come.....waiting for the resistors to arrive!
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Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:56:18 pm by TimAlls »

Offline big517

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 06:25:12 am »
Have you checked to see if the resistor gives the same results if installed as the first device on the circuit (first light can in a string of 6 cans for instance) or on the last light can in that example?

I'm not an electrician so this may not matter but I'm noticing these led bulbs act odd for some reason.. Here is my real example... I have a wall of sconces 8 bulbs total,(philips dimmable flare tip with regular base) and the 2 bulb always shows a greener color that the rest.. I've swapped out with 2 bulbs to confirm..
Just a thought.

Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 11:14:11 am »
Have you checked to see if the resistor gives the same results if installed as the first device on the circuit (first light can in a string of 6 cans for instance) or on the last light can in that example?
I'm not an electrician so this may not matter but I'm noticing these led bulbs act odd for some reason.. Here is my real example... I have a wall of sconces 8 bulbs total,(philips dimmable flare tip with regular base) and the 2 bulb always shows a greener color that the rest.. I've swapped out with 2 bulbs to confirm..
Just a thought.
The lighting circuits are in parallel with each other so it does not matter where you tie in the dummy load .....The test I did with the Leviton 1000W dimmer showed that all LED lights added into the room functioned properly after adding the dummy load into the circuit.
To confirm your odd behavior comment.....I too noticed that before adding the dummy load lights that were further away had different flickering properties. This, I am speculating, is due to the reactive loading the LED lights create and the length of the wire may change the capacitive reactance to the circuit.....bottom line is the dummy load eliminates all strange behavior.
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Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

Offline silvereagle2208

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2012, 12:47:26 pm »
I have a question that derives itself from the discussions on this thread.  Would the use of a added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current provide enough energy to activate a Leviton VRS05-1L (Scene Capable, non-dimming, incandescent switch with no neutral) in a 3-Way installation?   Leviton switches are very useful in single-pole installations.  However, in a 3-way installation without a neutral, I need to have, at the least, a 40 watt bulb in parallel with every LED light in the circuit or the Leviton switch will not function properly.  I realize that with the shunt in the circuit, you will create a 10 watt vampire load at every fixture, but if it allows you to reduce the lamp wattage of every light fixture by at least 50%, it might be an interesting trade-off or a least lead to an interesting discussion.  I also wonder what the difference is between using a 1650 ohm shunt for each fixture in a specific 3-way circuit compared to using a 40 watt incandescent bulb as a "shunt"?

Offline pgrover516

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2012, 02:24:31 pm »
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.
Here is a photo of a standard can light.....the small rectangle in the bottom with two wires attached is a thermal overload circuit. If the light fixture gets too hot the power shuts off automatically. We are mounting the resistor nearby so that excessive heat from a malfunction will shut the circuit down and not allow anything to catch fire. I wll run the circuit 24 hours then check it with a thermal temperature gauge.
more to come.....waiting for the resistors to arrive!
Regards
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
Great stuff Tim keep it coming, going to convert the house to LED when you're done with testing
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Offline TimAlls

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Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 02:51:07 pm »
I have a question that derives itself from the discussions on this thread.  Would the use of a added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current provide enough energy to activate a Leviton VRS05-1L (Scene Capable, non-dimming, incandescent switch with no neutral) in a 3-Way installation?   Leviton switches are very useful in single-pole installations.  However, in a 3-way installation without a neutral, I need to have, at the least, a 40 watt bulb in parallel with every LED light in the circuit or the Leviton switch will not function properly.  I realize that with the shunt in the circuit, you will create a 10 watt vampire load at every fixture, but if it allows you to reduce the lamp wattage of every light fixture by at least 50%, it might be an interesting trade-off or a least lead to an interesting discussion.  I also wonder what the difference is between using a 1650 ohm shunt for each fixture in a specific 3-way circuit compared to using a 40 watt incandescent bulb as a "shunt"?
Even though my testing was done with a Leviton 1000Watt dimmer I suspect that other Leviton products will give similar results.....that is just a guess. To prove it use a 10 watt bulb in one of your lights along with the LED and see if it still functions. If it does then you will know what to expect with a dummy load since they are both resistive loads they will act the same. If you need more than a 10 watt load the heat buildup will be an issue to deal with.....the 1.5 K resistors don't give off much heat and are pretty easy to manage.
It will really be nice for all the Forum Users to get a database together of what the value of the dummy loads are required so that LED lighting can be used! LEDs are here to stay so lets all work together to solve the issues....food for thought!
@pgrover516.....Good to hear!
Regard
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 02:52:54 pm by TimAlls »