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General => Temperature Monitoring & HVAC Control => Topic started by: Finmath on January 26, 2012, 10:23:55 pm

Title: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Finmath on January 26, 2012, 10:23:55 pm
I live in a 62-unit mid-rise condo building in Chicago, and my thermostat is a line-voltage thermostat.  My thermostats (two of them) are old, and I'd like to replace them with z-wave capable versions.  Is anyone aware of any z-wave, line-voltage thermostats?  Thanks in advance for your help.

Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on January 31, 2012, 09:01:19 pm

I have been looking for the same thing for some time now.  No luck so far.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Turk4U2 on February 01, 2012, 04:03:15 pm
Do you mean to switch a three phase powered device or do you want to switch one of the phases ?
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on February 01, 2012, 04:50:06 pm

In my case... I have some 220v radiant heaters in my rental cabin bedrooms, need to switch both legs of that. Single phase though.

Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: racarter on February 01, 2012, 05:21:52 pm
Heatmiser in the UK have a 240v wi-fi thermostat (live, neutral and switched live) which works well.  It doesn't talk to Vera yet but folks are working on it.  Meanwhile you can control it remotely via browser, iPhone app etc.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on February 01, 2012, 07:02:00 pm

From what I can see from their site the wifi 230v models only switch 3amps.  I would need to check but I am sure that those beasts are pulling more power than that.  Was I looking at the right model?   Wifi would be better than nothing and would give me some remote control which would make me happy.

Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: racarter on February 01, 2012, 07:30:19 pm
They're designed to switch pumps and boilers, so I guess you'd need an interposing relay to handle the currents you're talking about.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on February 01, 2012, 07:40:32 pm

Now that I am thinking, it may be easier to pick up a 24vac heater relay such as
http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noLangue=2&noProduit=42
to allow me to use a regular thermostat.  Not as pretty as I would prefer but still would be using parts that are designed to do just what I need, allow a normal thermostat to switch a 15-20amp heater circuit.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: mundyb on February 01, 2012, 08:37:01 pm
@ Les F

I have never used the brand of relay you posted, but I have used the RIB branded relays for years.  I didn't see on their website that they had one with a built-in 24v transformer, like the Aube, but I'm not so sure I would necessarily want to have both the relay and transformer built into one device.  If the relay contacts were to go bad, or the transformer, you would have to replace the whole thing.  A separate transformer and relay would be more reliable, and easier to repair.

I'm not sure if you live in the USA or not, but I couldn't find where the Aube products were manufactured, but I'm a little worried about their manufacturing origin.  This is all they say about it on the website.
"Designed in Canada, Aube products..."

RIB on the other hand is made in the USA, and has been around a while.  And like I said I've been using them for a lot of years now.
"Functional Devices, Inc. has been designing and manufacturing quality electronic devices in the United States of America since 1969."
http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-automation/display.php?model=RIB24P30

It would be a neat project if you can get it all wired up.  Like I always say there's nothing I can't fix with enough relays!hehe
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on February 01, 2012, 09:19:58 pm
@mundyb .

Yeah, I am in Maryland.

Thanks for the tipoff!  I had googled around and found the aube, but I prefer something someone has actually used and can tell me that it has held up for them.  I'll look at those.

Wow! that's a great site.. .all kinds of good 'stuff' thanks again!
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Turk4U2 on February 02, 2012, 05:48:16 am
Horstmann HRT4-ZW + ASR is also able to switch single phase up to 230V, 3Amp. For more Amps a relay can also be switched directly by VERA for which plug-ins are available (http://code.mios.com/trac/mios_iorelay) but you would need a temperature sensor and run the thermostat algorithm in VERA.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: dfr2923 on February 07, 2012, 07:44:18 pm
I am looking at doing the same thing only I am finishing my basement off.  I have Geothermal forced air that heats and cools my whole house but I want to put some electric heat in the basement to boost it up a little bit.   I am looking at radiant cieling panels and I am thinking of controlling it with the Aube TH115-A-240D Thermostat and I will use an appliance module and relay to switch the stat between vacation and standard mode when I am in the basement was thinking of using the HSM100 on motion sensor and than leaving heat on for 2 hours but not to go above a certain level but affraid I will get to many false call because it will turn on whenever someone walks through.  I was thinking of using the HSM 100, appliance module, and Aube RC840T relay/transformer but am worried I will not get it to work how I want and not have precise temperature control.  .  I just want the heat to come on when I am down there otherwise it can stay at the temp the geothermal keeps the basement.  Any better Ideas?  Thanks. 

Side note about Aube I am an Electrical contractor and have been installing Aube products for a few years with no problems Aube is owned by Honeywell if you were wondering if there stuff is good.  RIB is a great product also just thought I would mention that about Aube.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on March 06, 2012, 01:23:24 pm
Hello folks,
This "line-voltage" thermostat thing has been haunting me for quite a while. I'm an integrator from Quebec, where 80% of homes are heated with baseboard heaters... Let me save you hours of Googling : there is nothing out there. Not only have I looked far and wide, I have talked on the phone with some of the most obvious companies, to no avail. Their say there is not enough of a market for them out there... Your alternative is to use a relay. I can certainly vouch for Aube products. Aube is a Honeywell company who's factory is 10 minutes out from my office, their product outfit a very large number of Canadian houses. Having the transfo built-in is a plus to my ears, but feel free to disagree :) What you need to worry about is both footprint (inside the wall or near the unit itself) and cooling. This thing can heat up quite a bit. Work your numbers out and make sure it's placed where it can breathe. Also know this : this will be a full on / full off setup. With most modern line-voltage thermostat, you'll get "pulsing" or the ability to slow down the unit once near the setpoint. The disadvantage of not doing that is that you'll heat it up red until it reaches the setpoint, then the relay clicks and stops it, but it will radiate a lot more before beginning cool down, so it's not exactly an "energy wise" method since it'll produce a lot of unwanted heat.

We have taken it upon us to come up with a solution : we are in the early stage of a working Z-wave line-voltage, triac-controlled, thermostat. If it's something you need, let me know. I'm pretty sure we'll be looking for a bunch of people to use/abuse it once it's ready... Certification is a pain, but there's hope yet, bear with me  :)

Cheers !
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: garrettwp on March 06, 2012, 01:33:03 pm
Not sure if this helps, but TimAlls is working on a plugin for a device that has three relays and 8 temp inputs.

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,9386.0.html

Might be an option.

- Garrett
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on March 06, 2012, 01:38:26 pm

I have been leaning towards taking a zwave thermostat and adding on a relay made just for heating (high amperage) purposes.  A lot of the solutions don't handle that kind of load so you would have to piggy back another relay on top of the outputs of the device. 

@T1000, let me know what you come up with, I would be interested in testing/trying your solution.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on March 06, 2012, 03:28:49 pm
Yes, the solution offered with the ControlByWeb unit is a good one. I'm actually more familiar with this stuff as this is the usual solution for "simple" systems (read, when Crestron is not warranted), but I really think that what most people are on the lookout for is a retrofit unit rather than anything involving fishing, holes in walls and whatnot. At least that's where the frustration has been coming from. We started looking into Zwave for simpler, more cost effective solutions, but the lack of a product for such a simple use has really been a setback. The people we offer Zwave to don't want to hear about re-wiring their houses... That's why we decided to do one ourselves ! I'm new to this forum, but if there is interest, I'll post our progress here.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: mathieuc on March 10, 2012, 02:38:08 am
Hi T1000,

I will be interested in your thermostat solution as I live in Québec too (Laval) and I cannot believe that there is not enough market here in the north for that... They do dimmer, switch and outlet z-wave or zig-bee compatible but no line voltage thermostat... Also the challenge will be the price, because having to buy 1 HVAC thermostat at around 200-300$ for a whole house is not bad, but with line voltage you need 1 for each room so the price must be under 100$ each (even less) to be appealing to do a whole house project. I might need as much as 10 for my house to control all baseboard heater...

Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on March 13, 2012, 04:36:55 pm
@mathieuc : I hear ya ! I find it hard to believe as well, hence the decision to look into it. Above the pricing issue you mention, the certification issue is a big pain as well. Any high voltage stuff requires rigorous specs and testing and I sure hope we won't sink our boat with that. It's pretty hard to say who would be interested, I know that Quebec and these parts are big on baseboards, but I don't know how big... I'll eventually start a thread on here to probe the interest of fellow zwave users. In the meantime, we're good, summer's here :)
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: richard_canada on April 12, 2012, 04:03:05 pm
Hello,

I set up a line voltage baseboard zwave controlled house in Charlevoix Québec years ago (Vera 1 now on a Vera 2) using 18 Aube relays placed in the baseboard heaters. I used the now discontinued Intermac CA8900 thermostats (I assume the 2gig thermostats can replace them). It is used in a rental property so I can turn up before client arrive and down when they leave (or set them at ridiculously high settings/ people think by setting it at 30 the room will heat up faster...). My electrician been very familar with Aube had no issues with my configuration.

Salut.

Richard. 
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on June 26, 2012, 08:39:10 pm
Salut Richard !
That's a great setup, but it did require re-wiring between the wall thermostat and the Aube relay. That works great in a build/renovate context, but it's not very efficient as a retrofit solution. The other issue, albeit a small one, is that the relay is either opened or closed. It won't "cycle" or "pulse" your baseboard as a regular electronic thermostat would, thus overshooting the target temperature every time. It's not huge, but it will eventually end up costing more on the long run as a bit of electricity is wasted on every cycle.
We are still working on this, even got a working prototype running, but it's an absolute pain. There is red tape everywhere I look and the "ZWave alliance" does not look keen on helping the small guys get started. The worst red tape comes from CSA, as it should. If anyone knows of an electronic, line-voltage thermostat OEM manufacturer, we're having the hardest time locating one. I'm about to board a plane to China and knock on doors !
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: richard_canada on July 07, 2012, 01:08:14 am
Hello,

The Aube relay can be installed in the baseboard or in the side of the old line voltage thermostat power box in retrofix situation (If wired correctly both live and live ground should arrive and leave the power box/ if the electrician just lopped the live line your out of luck). Aube have a mechanical and a solid state version (could pulse but I do not believe any Zwave thermostat could drive the pulse). Both provide the 24 volt to power the thermostat. Aartech supply the Aube (and MCV) products in Canada.

Richard.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on July 11, 2012, 05:18:56 pm
Hello Richard,
Did you try the in-wall setup yourself ? I'm curious as to the heat dissipation within the wall. The SSR must heat up a fair bit I would think ? Also, how did you come about making it somewhat "code proof" ? I'm looking down both avenues right now. Red tape on creating a device (even on the Zwave side!) makes me wonder how this will ever be worth my while... except for the bragging rights of course  ;D
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: richard_canada on July 12, 2012, 09:25:01 am
Hello T1000,

I did the retrofit install and it worked OK. I am not sure about heat dissipation but it seems to be how Aube suggest the relay can be installed (I confirmed with AUBE/Honeywell that an in wall install was OK however this is not the case for the RT850T Solid State Relay). The older Intermatic thermostat is better than the 2Gig one, because it reports the locally set temperature (2Gig does not), because it does not require beaming and because it only cost $75. Other thermostats cost $150 and are over kill (no need for sheduling, or cooling, or fan control). With the relay times at least 10 thermostats per home (I have 18) is a problem. Note that in UI4 a thermostat was a smaller frame and in Ui5 it's much larger, times 18 it takes a lot of screen space.

What do you meen by "code proof"

Wiring and relay placing possibilities diagram  attached (as suggested by Aube).
(I used a smaller and horizontally placed box to hide it behind the thermostat
a metal plate "cover" is required by code)

Richard.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: guest18309 on August 24, 2012, 11:09:56 am
Hi,

I live in PQ too and work at an electrical reseller company as a home autopmation specialist. I want to let you know that Honeywell/Aube now make a wireless control system for baseboard heating. The technology is called RedLink eConnect and it can be accessed over the internet by a gateway sold by Honeywell too. You can find more information on the Honeywell website (sorry I can't post external links)  All you have to do is install the wireless relays in your baseboards and place the wireless thermostal on your wall.

I've asked my Honeywell sales representativeand unfortunately for those interested in home automation with this technology, Honeywell doesn't distribute any integration protocol...

Regards
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: TheAce on August 25, 2012, 10:34:10 pm
I know this is about 9 months old. . .but to the OP, I also live in Chicago and have one room with 220v baseboard heaters.  It had an old mechanical relay on it and a 24v traditional thermostat until the mechanical relay failed a year or two ago.  I got an Aube on ebay for about $50 and it's terrific.  I'm going to try to connect a Trane or similar to it shortly in preparation for the fall when I'll start needing it again in that room.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Michele on November 06, 2012, 01:49:32 am
Any updates on this?  I have a 110 v. electric baseboard heater controlled by a line voltage thermostat.  I'd like to control it with Vera but I haven't found any Z-wave line voltage thermostats and I've searched the web high and low.  I just want something I can drop in without messing with realys and such.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: richard_canada on November 07, 2012, 09:05:48 pm
Michele,

My solution is not very difficult to implement. Because you are dealing with line voltage
you will innevitably have to deal with the high voltage. Most baseboards are 208 or 220volt
though (be careful 220v can be deadly). In many cases the relay can be supplied by the
baseboard manifacturer and located in their basebord. But I agree that eventually someome will
/should come up with and integrated solution. I have been using CT100 thermostats with and
without 24v power.

Richard
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on November 08, 2012, 09:36:36 pm
Hey guys,
Of course this is a side project, but I intend to do it right (no house burning down on my watch...) We do have a working prototype but there are two issues with it, both pertaining to red tape (CSA/UL issue and patent issue). I'm heading to Shenzen again in February, there's still hope
Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath  ;D
Title: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: automator.app on November 08, 2012, 11:01:29 pm
A triac based z-wave replacement for my 12 line voltage thermostats would be awesome.  Add z-wave energy reporting to them and I would be a happy customer.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: patrick on November 09, 2012, 04:06:37 am
For those using the Aube relays - what cycle settings did you use (cycles per hour, max duty time, ...)?  Did you experience any issues with fluctuating temperatures since those thermostats weren't designed with baseboards in mind?

I'm still trying to decide if its worth it to convert one or more rooms from a line-voltage thermostate to the Aube+Trane combo. 
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Jamy on December 01, 2012, 05:56:47 pm
Hello folks,
This "line-voltage" thermostat thing has been haunting me for quite a while. I'm an integrator from Quebec, where 80% of homes are heated with baseboard heaters... Let me save you hours of Googling : there is nothing out there. Not only have I looked far and wide, I have talked on the phone with some of the most obvious companies, to no avail. Their say there is not enough of a market for them out there... Your alternative is to use a relay. I can certainly vouch for Aube products. Aube is a Honeywell company who's factory is 10 minutes out from my office, their product outfit a very large number of Canadian houses. Having the transfo built-in is a plus to my ears, but feel free to disagree :) What you need to worry about is both footprint (inside the wall or near the unit itself) and cooling. This thing can heat up quite a bit. Work your numbers out and make sure it's placed where it can breathe. Also know this : this will be a full on / full off setup. With most modern line-voltage thermostat, you'll get "pulsing" or the ability to slow down the unit once near the setpoint. The disadvantage of not doing that is that you'll heat it up red until it reaches the setpoint, then the relay clicks and stops it, but it will radiate a lot more before beginning cool down, so it's not exactly an "energy wise" method since it'll produce a lot of unwanted heat.

We have taken it upon us to come up with a solution : we are in the early stage of a working Z-wave line-voltage, triac-controlled, thermostat. If it's something you need, let me know. I'm pretty sure we'll be looking for a bunch of people to use/abuse it once it's ready... Certification is a pain, but there's hope yet, bear with me  :)

Cheers !

T1000, I registered just to chime in and echo your thoughts exactly. Years and years I have been looking for this!

There are multiple millions of  220/240v thermostats here in Canada and nobody at the big thermosat providers thinks  there is even a market in the Line voltage TStat businessDUH. I have been trying for years to find anything either Insteon, ZWave or UPB for that matter that will work, but ended up converting 2 of my 11 in my house to the Venstar 24v Stat, and the AUBE 840T in the link above to work with my Insteon swicthes and software. Works well, but a lot of effort and cash just to get those 2 stats automated. Moving to Z-wave now and still no options beside this?. Grrr.. Aube by the way also made an excellent  X-10 compatible stat many years ago (12 or so ) that was quite popular with the Automation crowd at the time but they were a small market then mainly early adopters. Maybe they haven't done much research lately and still thinking back to those days when making their marketing decisions? Of course then why would the big stat vendors be pushing pseudo-schedule-7 day timing junk as their answer to automation? Strangely enough Honeywell does make a rather contorted line voltage wireless wifi controlled tstat now that uses their own proprietary technology. No doubt it is a beautiful stat that works well like all their products but am I going to ignore my investment in automation standards just to bring in another wireless technology with different levels more of complexity from a large vendor because they won't jump in the automation sandbox with everyone else? No wonder these large players fail at residential automation! Guys we don't want more stuff!!, but we'll buy it if it means getting stuff that works! All they have to do is offer one of the common automation standards, in a triac line voltage 240v stat and they could make a lot of money in this market now, that is more and more mainstream all the time. And yet their idea of automation is for me to spend 2 days programming in arbitrary times and schedules into 13 dumb stat terminals with timers they call smart stats, convincing me that I'm saving cash doing it LOL. At least my automation setup knows my habits and can adapt easily without me having to reprogram everything all the time. Hit a scene button and everything changes. That's automation, hit a button at work, and let the kids in, turning up the temp and lights, and off with the alarm. Go to bed, let the system figure out that everyone's in bed, lower the water temps, the heat, arm the house, and tone down the outside lighting!! You can't do that for heat unless the stat vendor integrates into the system like all the rest of our providers do, and the 24v line voltage vendors are lost in the dark when it comes to thinking this through. (pardon the puns)   ;D

Anyway T1000, after all this rant LOL, let me know if you need a good beta or alpha tester, and if it works I will take the first 11 units!

Jamy
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Jamy on December 01, 2012, 06:04:38 pm
For those using the Aube relays - what cycle settings did you use (cycles per hour, max duty time, ...)?  Did you experience any issues with fluctuating temperatures since those thermostats weren't designed with baseboards in mind?

I'm still trying to decide if its worth it to convert one or more rooms from a line-voltage thermostate to the Aube+Trane combo.

Patrick, I have one stat on 6 cycles /hr and the other on 4 just to test. But I really don't think there is much difference as they are replacing the old stat that just turned on until it hit the targeted temp, and turned off. I notice my system doesn't offer a max duty time in the stat that I am aware of.
Jamy
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on December 04, 2012, 01:53:41 pm
Back onto fitting an Aube and a zwave tstat...  trying to get an idea of where to stash the Aube in my setup.  I use these style heaters.
http://www.radiantsystemsinc.com/heater-features/ 

They look like a long triangular wedge up near the ceiling.  The only room is on the end for some wire nuts so relay needs to be external.   I don't want to put some box with a relay hanging off it next to the heater.  Any suggestions?  The only thing I have come up with is some kind of in wall electrical box to at least hide the bulk of the wiring/relay.  And of course if the relay is in a box, I assume you shouldn't be mixing 24volt next to 220v in the same confined space (at least not without some kind of separation)   

The best solution I have found is something like this:
http://tinyurl.com/cbj55x9

Any other ideas?

Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on December 15, 2012, 08:56:44 am

T1000, I registered just to chime in and echo your thoughts exactly. Years and years I have been looking for this!

There are multiple millions of  220/240v thermostats here in Canada and nobody at the big thermosat providers thinks  there is even a market in the Line voltage TStat businessDUH. I have been trying for years to find anything either Insteon, ZWave or UPB for that matter that will work, but ended up converting 2 of my 11 in my house to the Venstar 24v Stat, and the AUBE 840T in the link above to work with my Insteon swicthes and software. Works well, but a lot of effort and cash just to get those 2 stats automated. Moving to Z-wave now and still no options beside this?. Grrr.. Aube by the way also made an excellent  X-10 compatible stat many years ago (12 or so ) that was quite popular with the Automation crowd at the time but they were a small market then mainly early adopters. Maybe they haven't done much research lately and still thinking back to those days when making their marketing decisions? Of course then why would the big stat vendors be pushing pseudo-schedule-7 day timing junk as their answer to automation? Strangely enough Honeywell does make a rather contorted line voltage wireless wifi controlled tstat now that uses their own proprietary technology. No doubt it is a beautiful stat that works well like all their products but am I going to ignore my investment in automation standards just to bring in another wireless technology with different levels more of complexity from a large vendor because they won't jump in the automation sandbox with everyone else? No wonder these large players fail at residential automation! Guys we don't want more stuff!!, but we'll buy it if it means getting stuff that works! All they have to do is offer one of the common automation standards, in a triac line voltage 240v stat and they could make a lot of money in this market now, that is more and more mainstream all the time. And yet their idea of automation is for me to spend 2 days programming in arbitrary times and schedules into 13 dumb stat terminals with timers they call smart stats, convincing me that I'm saving cash doing it LOL. At least my automation setup knows my habits and can adapt easily without me having to reprogram everything all the time. Hit a scene button and everything changes. That's automation, hit a button at work, and let the kids in, turning up the temp and lights, and off with the alarm. Go to bed, let the system figure out that everyone's in bed, lower the water temps, the heat, arm the house, and tone down the outside lighting!! You can't do that for heat unless the stat vendor integrates into the system like all the rest of our providers do, and the 24v line voltage vendors are lost in the dark when it comes to thinking this through. (pardon the puns)   ;D

Anyway T1000, after all this rant LOL, let me know if you need a good beta or alpha tester, and if it works I will take the first 11 units!

Jamy

Hey Jamy, thanks for dropping a line. Your analysis of the perception problem that seems to exist with large manufacturers is exactly right in my experience. The folks at Aube are nice and all, but when it comes to thinking hi-tech, there's no-one to pick up the phone. In an unrelated project, they brushed me off saying they weren't interested... After finding another more willing supplier, my client is not only happy, he's considering going national with the product. I don't have MBA, but I'm pretty sure that's how you define a successful endeavour. As for this product they put out, it's not even worth the discussion. It is headed for the same discount box where you'll find every other attempt at wireless automation with no common ground with existing technology. It's hard to understand why this lesson hasn't been learned already...

Anyways, as I said earlier, the matter is not of making it work. We did that in 4 hours flat. The matter is coming up with a UL/CSA listed product that matches all standards, does not go against a zillion patents and can land on the shelves for a reasonable price. It's a taller order than it sounds :)

I am checking out manufacturing samples these days and my next visit to China is in February, so we should make some progress then... Y'all be the first to know !


Cheers!
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: huogas on December 15, 2012, 11:53:21 am
I'm from Quebec, and my house is full of Line Voltage Thermostats.

I would like to share an idea. Most of the new thermostats cans be used in many modes: DAY, VACATION, NIGHT, etc.
I think that some of these thermostat have in their back some contacts to activate a specific mode.

If I'm wright, could we think about a simple way to add a zwave device to simply, as an example, activate or desactivate a mode, letting the thermostat doing is job in that mode ?

Is there a possible solution there ?

GH
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on December 17, 2012, 04:14:20 pm
Hello huogas,

There are plenty of hacks to be done in order to make this work. One of the best is Richard_Canada's use of SSRs and Zwave thermostat. It's a good hack because it's within the confines of what"s acceptable, i.e. if your house burns down, it could be argued that this was a safe installation sinces parts where used within the confines of what they were meant to do (assuming of course the actual installation was done to code). But when you have stuff that does things it didn't do when it got stamped by CSA, it doesn't mean it's not safe, but it sure means you'll hear from your insurance company should something happen. In fact, an earfull is probably the only thing you'll get from them. I can't condone fiddling around with something that can so easily turn into a blaze and/or zap you in the process... If however you're equipped to experiment safely, then by all means do and please do share your results with us as this gray area sure needs some light.

I'm thinking the OP might want us to move this discussion to it's own thread ? Or are you still on the market for a solution to your problem ?
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Primetime on December 25, 2012, 11:57:02 pm
Here's another decent hack as well posted on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schlage-Link-Trane-Nexia-Zwave-Baseboard-Heat-120-240VAC-Thermostat-MOD-/321008086011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abd92abfb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schlage-Link-Trane-Nexia-Zwave-Baseboard-Heat-120-240VAC-Thermostat-MOD-/321008086011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abd92abfb)
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Primetime on December 25, 2012, 11:59:03 pm
I was looking at using something like this for my radiant heat in my shed
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: paulthbrit on January 29, 2013, 10:13:44 pm
I am looking at using the Aube relay/transformer to switch loads on baseboard heating.  I am going to mount it above the suspended ceiling in a basement, but am concerned from a safety point of view.  The instructions say to mount it through a knockout of a junction box, but I am concerned about having the relay exposed and in contact with fibreglass insulation.  I was thinking about mounting two standard 4" square boxes side by side with the relay in one and the threaded piece through the two knockouts - holding the two boxes together.

Do you get the picture?  That way all the electrics are in one box and the relay is in the other box protected.  Depending on how hot the RC-840T-240 gets, I may or may not put the cover on the relay box.

Thoughts about this?  I am just uncomfortable doing what the instructions say and having the relay sticking out exposed on the side of the junction box - even if it is code, which I am not sure it is.

Thanks,

Paul
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Les F on January 30, 2013, 06:53:41 am

@paulbrit,   I too would be interested in just what is 'safe' as well as 'code'.  I am getting ready to hook one of these up at my cabin.  Relay and box need to either go up in attic (not a good idea), or in the wall.  I already have an access panel in the outer wall of the place where the original heater was (like 12x24").  Behind that is insulation now.  However just above that is the relocated wiring and line voltage thermostat running to the newer radiant heater (mounted up near ceiling). 

I really didn't want to put any electrical box on the wall near the heater as it would look just wrong. I figured I could pull the access panel, splice in there with Aube in a box mounted in the wall on the stud.  I do like your idea of putting 2 boxes side by side to protect the Aube and its low voltage wiring too.  What I don't know is if behind the wall is code or not (still is an access panel in front of it that can be easily remove).
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: huogas on February 17, 2013, 03:39:01 pm
I'm from Quebec, and my house is full of Line Voltage Thermostats.

I would like to share an idea. Most of the new thermostats cans be used in many modes: DAY, VACATION, NIGHT, etc.
I think that some of these thermostat have in their back some contacts to activate a specific mode.

If I'm wright, could we think about a simple way to add a zwave device to simply, as an example, activate or desactivate a mode, letting the thermostat doing is job in that mode ?
Is there a possible solution there ?

GH

Just to keep going on with this, here is more information. My Tstat is a TH115-AF.
There is in the back some dry contact :
Quote
"From any remote control device equipped with a dry contact. When the contact closes, the thermostat
is placed in Vacation mode and the icon flashes on the screen. All buttons on the thermostat
are locked. When the contact opens, the thermostat returns to the previous mode.
NOTE: When the Vacation mode is activated from a remote control device, it can only be deactivated
using the device."
My plan is to use a Z-Wave device to put the Tstat in vacation mode when normal heating is not required, and back in normal mode when normal heating is required. I don't know how many Tstat have this "backdoor" but that seems to be a good solution since the Tstat keep doing its job and there is no impact on the electric circuitry.

From your experience, what would be the less expensive Z-Wave device I can use to activate and desactivate the "vacation" mode by the TH115-AF backdoor ?

Thanks,

Gaston
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on March 19, 2013, 10:51:46 am
UPDATE : For various reasons, I can no longer explain the details of where we're at with development of this, but I am dropping a line to ask those who are interested in this product to hang on and stay tuned. If anyone is interested in having their name on a beta tester list, you can message me. We're  looking to round up people with a decent Z-Wave knowledge and minimum technical skills.
It's moving slowly... but it's moving  :P
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: tonayisa on March 21, 2013, 09:23:49 pm
Bonjour T1000,

We are Z-Wave distributor in Quebec. You can add us on your beta tester list. As mentioned before, many customers are interested ! You can message me for more details ...
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on March 27, 2013, 12:32:13 am
@tinayisa,

Pas de probl?me, mais on ne peut envoyer de messages aux membres trop r?cent. Il va me falloir une autre fa?on de vous rejoindre !

Merci !
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: peterluc8080 on April 01, 2013, 11:32:07 pm
@T1000

Bonjour,

Je ne sais pas si vous ?tes toujours ? la recherche de personnes pour tester votre produit? Je suis au qu?bec et je suis vraiment en recherche intensive en ce moment pour un thermostat in-line.

Merci!

peter
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on April 05, 2013, 11:21:59 pm
Bonjour Peter,

Oui, nous sommes en train de d?velopper le produit et je monte une liste de gens interess?s a tester lorsqu'il sera pr?t. Il y en a encore pour quelques mois, nous seront pr?ts pour l'hiver 2013. Simplement me dire ou vous joindre.
D?sol? de ne pas en dire plus pour l'instant, mais nous sentons le poids de la comp?tition...

Merci !
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: peterluc8080 on April 17, 2013, 11:23:06 pm
Hi, I think that this little product is the perfect solution to electric heater on 240v. It output 24v for a normal zwave thermostat + a relay for the heater.

Bonjour, je crois fortement que c'est une bonne solution pour les gens qui habitent au Qu?bec. Il prend le 240v et en fait une sortie 24v pour un thermostat standard zwave + un relais pour le chauffage ?lectrique.

http://www.aartech.ca/rc840t-240-aube-240v-relay-with-transformer.html
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: tonayisa on May 05, 2013, 11:01:16 am
Bonjour T1000,

Nous sommes Villawave, vous pouvez nous contactez via notre site web. ( je crois qu'il est interdit de mettre nos coordon?es dans le forum). Nous venons de faire une installation dans un hotel pour les thermostats ?lectriques, il y a vraiment beaucoup de demande pour ce produit.

Au plaisir,
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: dmcstroud2 on May 08, 2013, 08:30:32 pm
I'm not sure how to send you a direct message, so I'm posting here. I would LOVE an in-line z-wave thermostat solution. My dad has panel heaters (see: econo-heat.com/us/products) that he just basically leaves on all winter because he forgwts to turn them off. I put them on z-wave modules so I can turn them off remotely so they don't stay on all the time, but if there was some way to put them on thermostats that would be great!!! They are mostly installed in pairs, two in kitchen, living room, hallway. So three would do it. But even considering the relay route with regular z-wave thermostats would cost another $500. It would be cheaper in the long run to have his furnace replaced with an electric one. My contact info is david dot clintonstroud at gmail dot com. THANKS!!!
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: spud on May 13, 2013, 06:33:19 pm
Bonjour T1000,

Je suis au Quebec et je suis interess? pour etre Beta testeur de votre thermostat.
Vous pouvez me contacter ? spud dot webb dot 4 at gmail dot com

Merci
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: madigan on June 10, 2013, 07:47:20 pm
I worked in corporate IT for 30 years. I install and support wireless internet for vaction condominiums in a ski resort town in Colorado. I have been installing Z-Wave systems for moisture detection and temperature monitoring for about 6 months. A lot the units have 220/240 vac baseboard heaters. I am new to Z-Wave and I am astonished to find out these thermostats are not generally available. Any info on a solution which could be placed in a client's condo would be appreciated. I am a computer guy and understand electrical wiring, however I am not an electrician.
Dan - Dan at Irishdan dot com
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on June 22, 2013, 09:06:39 pm
Hello all,
Since interest seems to still be there and since we have obviously hijacked this thread for good :) let me update you all on our progress.
To those who wonder why there are still no devices out there by any major manufacturer, here's a good hint : a company who shall not be named has it's hands clenched on patent that's absolutely necessary for this to work. The monies involved make it so the licensed product would be a guaranteed commercial failure because of MSRP. The other major hurdle involve the laws of physics and negociations with those are not going well... In the end, this latter problem might still be easier to address than the first.

We are working on two separate scenarios to circumvent these issues, but our best hopes to have betas ready for winter have evaporated. We'll continue to monitor this thread until we have enough meat on the bone to start a bona-fide dedicated thread. Until then, looks like those who are dedicated to finding a solution to this annoying problem have no issue finding this board...

Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath just yet !

M.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: travisn000 on July 10, 2013, 03:57:29 pm
Has anyone tried the Honeywell redlink system:

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-YTL9160AR1000-Wireless-Voltage-Thermostat/dp/B006W64NYA/
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-THM6000R1002-Enabled-Internet-Gateway/dp/B006BD1K4A/

 ???
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: pmnb on August 30, 2013, 07:54:56 am
Hello all,
Since interest seems to still be there and since we have obviously hijacked this thread for good :) let me update you all on our progress.
To those who wonder why there are still no devices out there by any major manufacturer, here's a good hint : a company who shall not be named has it's hands clenched on patent that's absolutely necessary for this to work. The monies involved make it so the licensed product would be a guaranteed commercial failure because of MSRP. The other major hurdle involve the laws of physics and negociations with those are not going well... In the end, this latter problem might still be easier to address than the first.

We are working on two separate scenarios to circumvent these issues, but our best hopes to have betas ready for winter have evaporated. We'll continue to monitor this thread until we have enough meat on the bone to start a bona-fide dedicated thread. Until then, looks like those who are dedicated to finding a solution to this annoying problem have no issue finding this board...

Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath just yet !

M.

Hi T1000,

I am interested in your endeavor for a commercial project that I am working on.   If you want to private message me, I can send you my email address.

Regards,
PM 
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on September 22, 2013, 04:27:47 pm
Has anyone tried the Honeywell redlink system:

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-YTL9160AR1000-Wireless-Voltage-Thermostat/dp/B006W64NYA/
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-THM6000R1002-Enabled-Internet-Gateway/dp/B006BD1K4A/

 ???

We wanted to give it a try on the bench, but realized we'd learn nothing from it. It's basically a packaged solution that includes some of the ideas listed above in this thread : a SS relay, built into the baseboard that comunicates through a proprietary wireless protocol to the wall unit, which then hooks up with a RedLink gateway. It likely works, and probably quite well. But here are the show stoppers:
- single unit solution. A relay with a com module needs to be installed in every baseboard we want control over.
- not a retrofit solution : needs a licensed electrician to be installed and to secure what's left of the initial wiring.
- proprietary : probably what I hate the most about it. Needs a RedLink gateway, or it's just an expensive doorstop... That also means that if your home is anything else but Honeywell friendly, you're SOL and will need to have two concurent domotic networks.

Not bashing, just giving my 2 cents. For the one looking at a single baseboard or heater to pre-heat or prevent freezing at the cabin, it's probaby what you're looking for... For the one looking at integrating energy management into a flexible and expandable solution ? Keep your money for now, there will be better stuff out there soon...
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: elviselvis on November 05, 2013, 08:33:23 am
T1000 will your product work in europe with 230 V and will you ship to europe? :)
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: noiseboy303 on November 14, 2013, 08:15:53 pm
Hello T1000,


  Are you still in R&D with the project or there is too much to over come with the "Giant" in thermostat?

And if you still need some beta tester, count me in...

Martin,Ville de Quebec
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: alien8er on December 21, 2013, 11:34:06 pm
I'm really interested in controlling electric baseboards via Z-wave.  I'm in Canada as well, in a townhouse, where during fall to early spring I do have to turn on the heat, but every room has electric baseboards.  The main floor has two baseboards controlled by one thermostat for the kitchen/eating area and there is another thermostat to control to the living/dining room.  These are the main ones I want to control as they are used the most. 

I've seen the options for the Aube relay, but I don't really understand how the relay knows when to turn the heat on/off.  Do I require 2 zwave thermostats in place of the original dial set thermostats? 

I'd be very interested in T1000's solution if that's still on the table!
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on December 22, 2013, 08:33:45 pm
Geez, I didn't get notified of these replies, so sorry to keep y'all waiting...

@elviselvis, yeah of course we'll be keeping our eyes on the European market, but don't hold your breath just yet. We have to take car of North America first...
@noiseboy303, yep still hard at work. I can't really comment about what's going on with it, but it's getting there. Your call is important to us, please stay on the line...
@alien8er, what you're describing is what prompted this whole project. It's been incredibly long and hard in the making, but there's hope yet !

Stay tuned !
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: GT! on December 28, 2013, 11:07:19 pm
I'm very interested also.  I have a rental condo with electric baseboards and would love to be able to control them remotely.  I'm in Montreal.

-GT
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: othentic on January 15, 2014, 04:44:34 pm
Count me in!

Live in Quebec and would gladly buy at least 10 units!

Benoit
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: mitnick29 on January 31, 2014, 06:11:44 pm
Hi,
me too, i'm interrested. I need 12 line voltage thermostat.. minimum.

Tell me if you want some testers.

thanks ;)
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: jaycuse on February 05, 2014, 12:41:46 pm
@T1000

Hey,
I'm in NB, really interested in this product since I have the same problem everyone on this thread seems to have. Either ZWave or Zigbee does the thing for me. Hope to hear back from you.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: Tazzman on February 06, 2014, 07:46:19 pm
Back onto fitting an Aube and a zwave tstat...  trying to get an idea of where to stash the Aube in my setup.  I use these style heaters.
http://www.radiantsystemsinc.com/heater-features/ 

They look like a long triangular wedge up near the ceiling.  The only room is on the end for some wire nuts so relay needs to be external.   I don't want to put some box with a relay hanging off it next to the heater.  Any suggestions?  The only thing I have come up with is some kind of in wall electrical box to at least hide the bulk of the wiring/relay.  And of course if the relay is in a box, I assume you shouldn't be mixing 24volt next to 220v in the same confined space (at least not without some kind of separation)   

The best solution I have found is something like this:
http://tinyurl.com/cbj55x9


Providing you have the room can the device be mounted next to the breaker panel

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on February 19, 2014, 08:56:16 pm
Hey guys, since this conversation spun off topic (well, not really, but I wasn't the OP) I have started a dedicated thread here
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,23401.0.html

Care to follow along ?
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on September 24, 2014, 06:41:12 pm
Well, it's just right that I finish where this started...

A long-awaited solution to baseboard heating has arrived : it's called Caleo and it's now in a crowdfunding effort to support it's launch later this year. Check it out, share your thoughts !

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat)
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: plasmon on September 30, 2014, 12:45:27 pm
Well, it's just right that I finish where this started...

A long-awaited solution to baseboard heating has arrived : it's called Caleo and it's now in a crowdfunding effort to support it's launch later this year. Check it out, share your thoughts !

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat)

I've been looking for years, Thank you / Merci
One more "THE MANSION + 4" on the pledge list is now gone.
Title: Re: Line Voltage Thermostast
Post by: CaSA on October 01, 2014, 07:39:17 pm
@plasmon, thanks for the support ! Spread the word :)