Vera - Smarter Home Control Forum

General => Temperature Monitoring & HVAC Control => Topic started by: CaSA on February 19, 2014, 08:54:25 pm

Title: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on February 19, 2014, 08:54:25 pm
Hello all,
This is a follow up conversation to this thread http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,9252.0.html which we've kinda hijacked, so here's a dedicated thread.

I won't repeat all that's been said previously, but the bottom line is this : the device does not exist. That state of nonexistence will be addressed very soon. Sorry I can't really say anything more, I've covered the red tape issue in the other discussion... Believe me, it's not as simple as you'd think !

That being said, an important question wreaked a little havoc in a meeting room this week and since a fair number of people here said they were interested, I figured I'd turn to this community first to find an answer.

So here goes : how much ?

How much would you be willing to part with to buy this device from a major retailer - or online - keeping in mind that we're talking about all the expected specs (in-line, 220V, 16A, 3500W, blablabla) and that you need more than one in a house to do a full retrofit. Be honest, we'll definitely consider your 2 cents while taking the decisions that lie before us...

Thanks y'all !

En fran?ais et en r?sum? : combien pensez-vous qu'un appareil comme celui-l? devrait co?ter ? On parle d'un ?quipement dont les performances sont "standard" soit en ligne, 220V, 16A, 3500W.  Rappellez-vous qu'il en faut un pour chaque pi?ce !
Merci !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on February 19, 2014, 09:11:40 pm
Salut,
je vais m'adresser en francais, car c'est plus facile pour moi.

Moi comme j'ai dit dans ton premier topic, je suis int?ress? par ce thermostat. Je suis Technologue en g?nie ?lectrique de m?tier, je sais que concevoir cette appareil, test, approbation,etc, est tr?s compliqu?. Mais je trouve tr?s bien le vouloir de votre ?quipe de essayer de combler un type d'appareil plus sp?cifique.

Pour le prix, c'est sur que c'est compliqu? ? dire. Mais voil? environ 5 ans, j'ai install? 12 thermostats ?lectronique qui mon co?t? 45$ chacun. Ces thermostats n'ont rien de sp?cial, a part des "schedule" que l'on programme. Alors, je crois que si je peu avoir le m?me genre de thermostat avec le Z-wave, je serais pr?t ? payer le double. Environ 90-100$, c'est cher un peu, mais je crois que d?velopper le produit co?te cher, et si la demande est moins importante que le autre type de thermostat cela doit ?tre compens?.

Merci, Thanks! ;D
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: junglejay on February 19, 2014, 09:37:07 pm
Salut T1000,

I think it would be useful for you to describe (en detail) the device you are talking about, especially since you started a new thread (where some folks will land without having read the earlier thread) and so that all of us are on the same page when considering pricing for the device.

Merci!
J.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: watou on February 20, 2014, 03:41:59 am
On the other thread you mentioned patents and thermostats, and I know that there has been a huge opportunity re-opened by the massive legal battles between Honeywell and Nest Labs, casting doubt on the stranglehold of previous patents on thermostat technology.  I hope you are able to thread this newly widened needle with some innovation to everyone's (including your own) benefit.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on February 20, 2014, 02:55:14 pm
@ mitnick29, merci de l'input. Ton raisonnement s'approche du notre, avec comme r?sultat des chiffres similaires...
@ junglejay, I agree, but I'm currently not at liberty to discuss some details, hence my intentionnaly being vague. I'm hoping to get an all clear in a matter of days, I'll give plenty of details then, but for all intents and purposes, let's talk about a device with the specs in the OP, since that's what on the shelves at major retailers. Imagine simply that you've added Z-Wave or Zigbee connectivity to it.
@ watou, thanks for noticing :) In fact, this whole IP thing has gotten so out of hands, that this project's first expense account is... legal. Yep, not R & D, not GUI or cloud or hardware or even salaries... Nope, it's legal. If you're American, start paying attention to the battle that's started because it won't end before Congress rethinks the IP laws. I happily blame Apple and Google for creating the climate we live in today, that allowed such abberations as Intellectual Ventures to exist...
So yeah, to answer your question, we're hoping that while these two go at it, we'll be able to perform a micro-progress in technology... but let's not get our hopes too high shall we ?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: pomartel on February 21, 2014, 02:25:34 pm
I would be very interested in a basic non-programmable zwave thermostat (compatible with SmartThings). The goal would be to make it as cheap as possible, while being reliable. All the intelligence would be handled by the hub. I would be willing to pay between 50$ and 100$ for such a thermostat. You can contact me directly if this ever gets released.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tmarks11 on February 25, 2014, 10:48:15 am
Interested.  I have baseboard heat with 11 thermostats in my house, half of which I have replaced with programmable for $52 each.  I would be interested in a line voltage z-wave compatible thermostat in the $50-100 range.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on February 27, 2014, 08:56:12 pm
Interesting. Thanks for the input. It sounds like the 50 to 100$ range is where we should be. The 50$ mark is not realistic though, it's what the current technology sells for and I can already tell you there's no way we'll be able to reach it. The 100$ mark is more reasonable, although it still would be problematic for the retail environment, but that's our problem :)

I appreciate ideas being put forth here, keep them coming, we like to discuss everything brought to our attention. We may not keep it all, but at least we'll have considered it...

Cheers !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: EMFMD on March 01, 2014, 04:48:00 pm
Anything new on Z-Wave control for a baseboard heater? 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: PromptCritical on March 03, 2014, 07:45:24 pm
Not so elegant, but anyone try a 220V relay (contact or solid state) slaved to a low voltage Z-wave T-stat?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on March 24, 2014, 06:42:38 pm
@EMFMD, yes there's something new :) An official release should come in a few weeks, but I can tell you that something will be available come next cold season...
@PromptCritical, there are a number of hacks listed here to do what you suggest. It can be done fairly easily, even using some part from Aube or Honeywell. It's just not as elegant -as you put it - as a dedicated solution, nor is it as safe (to the extent that it's a hack) but mostly it's ridiculously expensive if you want to implement it in the whole house.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: nwikner on March 28, 2014, 06:56:42 pm
Hello.  I would like to express my interest in this pending product.  I need 3 of them.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: MaverickYQB on April 03, 2014, 03:02:31 pm
T1000 I cant wait to see your stuff, since its the only part I didnt switch to z-wave in my house

A price target arround 100 bucks sound pretty fair to me (leviton's dimmer sells arround 80$),  as long as we could be able to set parameter like: setpoint occupation and read temp to be able to use it in the GUI in my case running on a web server.

Keep going
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: joetan on April 04, 2014, 07:38:13 pm
I'm interested as well. Near $50 would be ideal, but < $100 would be fair. I've got multiple baseboard thermostats in my home, so keeping the costs down would be ideal.

thanks!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: yracine on April 19, 2014, 12:21:36 pm
I'd be interested as well. Please let me know if I can be a beta tester.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: emiliosic on April 22, 2014, 10:43:46 am
I've been looking at this issue for a while; and there is something; but my problem is the logistics of wiring additional thermostat wires:

http://www.smarthome.com/300612T/Aube-RC840T-240-On-Off-Switching-Electric-Heating-Relay-with-Built-in-24-V-Transformer/p.aspx

This relay appears to do everything that's required to connect a standard low-voltage thermostat to a baseboard. It even provides 24V AC that's standard for thermostats
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: EMFMD on June 11, 2014, 12:11:57 am
can I presume there is nothing new here about this "ready to announce" Z-wave thermostat for live voltage baseboards?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on June 11, 2014, 12:35:09 am
To be honest... I don't think we will ever see this product in the near future...

Envoy? de mon Z30 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: nwikner on June 11, 2014, 08:31:00 am
That's really too bad.  I am ready to snap up 3 of them as soon as they are available.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on July 21, 2014, 09:03:49 pm
Haaa... but let's not lose hope my friends  :)
If it's of any confort to anyone, I am looking at a few of those right now, sitting on the assembly bench. We're not out of the woods yet, but I stand by my previous words, there will be something out there before the year is out...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on July 21, 2014, 09:50:10 pm
@T1000, could you post a picture? :-p

Envoy? de mon Z30 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on August 12, 2014, 03:18:07 pm
Guess I shouldn't. But since that sounded like a dare...
Here is the max I can show. Don't tell anyone, it's because you asked nicely :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tsawyer on August 12, 2014, 04:09:37 pm
Great to see!  I have been waiting for something like this to materialize for some time and have considered the relay route as well, but I am hoping that patience will pay off.   With regards to the earlier price point options, $50 would be awesome, but my realistic expectation would be in the $100 to $150 range.   
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: spud on August 14, 2014, 08:49:57 pm
cool!
need any beta tester?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: alien8er on August 22, 2014, 02:04:46 am
Im interested. What happens in the event that there are two baseboard heaters on one switch? Will this device have any issues with that?  As for price, its all about ROI. If i can save more than the devices are worth  then im sold. Most of my energy goes to heating my kitchen living room areas. Simply scheduling these to go off and on at appropriate times would save quite a bit! 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sturgeon86 on August 22, 2014, 08:13:28 am
I would be interested. Price point around 125$.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: lamcdade on August 25, 2014, 05:06:19 pm
I'm located in New Brunswick, and would love to see a CSA/UL certified line voltage thermostat I can manage remotely. The programmable triacs I have now gave me a pretty quick ROI @ CAD$50/ea on sale, but I'm willing to pay $100 or more for the convenience of being able to tie it all in to a central PC-based home automation solution, or to manage remotely via mobile apps. THANK YOU for putting the time into this!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: AgentPrefect on September 16, 2014, 09:30:35 am
@T1000 After seeing that picture above, and searching the interwebs for about a year now with no satisfactory solution (using a relay for switching has to many drawbacks IMHO), all I can say is... SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!  ;D

All joking aside, sign me up for 12. At this point in development, price point has most likely been set but I figure this will retail anywhere between 100 and 150.

Any news on release? Pre-order would be great at this point in time! Maybe a crowdfunding campaign?

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tameanaka on September 16, 2014, 02:29:30 pm
Just found this thread. I have been looking for something like this for a while.  My issue is that all my current rotary thermostats, all 7 of them, are mounted to a single gang box.  All the thermostats I've found are the wrong orientation to cover the existing box.  Now I know with drywall I could patch and make it all work with an Aube relay, but 6 of the 7 thermostats are on wood covered walls...so not real easy to patch and make pretty.

T1000, will your stats cover a single gang box?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: OttToyBoy on September 21, 2014, 03:37:48 pm
@T1000,
This sounds very promising!
I'd be more than willing to participate and assist in any way that I can -- especially as a tester.  I have two vacation properties in Mont Tremblant that have Z-Wave systems (lights / door locks) and I've been looking for a Z-Wave solution for line-voltage heaters.   (A silent relay would be very desirable as some thermostats are in bedrooms).

Please contact me anytime if I can help out!  (I come from an embedded s/w background, high-tech management career).

Peter.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 24, 2014, 06:38:12 pm
**** drumroll ****

Ladies and gentlemen, the long wait is coming to an end... We have launched our Kickstarter campaign for Caleo, our connected line-voltage thermostat and it's now available for pre-order at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/casa/caleo-the-line-voltage-smart-thermostat)

While this conversation started with a Z-Wave enabled device, Caleo runs on Wi-Fi as it was a much more market-friendly protocol. Work is still ongoing with proprietary protocols and we would like to hear from you if you feel the Wi-Fi version doesn't cut it for you.

In the meantime, enjoy our hard work, the world's first and only line-voltage smart thermostat !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 24, 2014, 07:00:08 pm
Looks very nice. What do you mean by developing commercial APIs for Demand-Response softwares? Is the Vera hub part of these?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 24, 2014, 08:40:42 pm
Yes and no :)
Vera is not part of the commercial APIs this sentence refers to, but developing plugins for HAN gateways is definitely on the todo list. It was part of our secondary objectives, but if people keep asking for it we'll move it up on the list !

The "commercial APIs" we refer to are part of the business model and revenue stream we are trying to create  : we can't run this for free forever, but we can't - and won't - sell your personal info for revenue. Becoming an asset in a demand-reponse or load-shifting system is how we plan to be successful and keep offering our cloud service for free.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: spud on September 24, 2014, 08:49:49 pm
very nice! I have been waiting for something like this for a long time. Thanks to make it happen.

Will there be a non-cloud API, i.e a way to connect directly to the thermostat?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on September 24, 2014, 08:58:19 pm
Wonderful new!! :D I have the same question as spud. Are we gonna be able to control the thermostat directly without the could api? Like by sending requests directly over home wifi network? If yes, then we can just create a plugin and it will be perfect!!

To have connected thermostat is one thing, but to have it control from Vera and setup scene with it is the goal!

If you answer yes, I will buy the 5 thermostats kit right away on kickstarter!!

Oh, and by the way, I live in Laval, that not too far from Bromont! :)

Envoy? de mon Z30 en utilisant Tapatalk
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 24, 2014, 09:19:05 pm
Becoming an asset in a demand-reponse or load-shifting system is how we plan to be successful and keep offering our cloud service for free.
I actually think it a good thing provided that utilities like Hydro-Quebec will compensate customers willing to be part of it. Any ideas how it could work?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sturgeon86 on September 25, 2014, 11:38:55 am
I think few of us are waiting for the answer, can it be controlled from Vera. If so I will grab one or two for sure.
T1000 please answer to this question.

Thanks
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 25, 2014, 08:39:24 pm
There are two answers to this question : the configuration and provisioning app allows for a custom server location to be specified. One could replace CaSA's server with his own and given that the server has the proper config, the devices would respond. At this time, this scenario poses a serious encryption and security issue we're not yet sure how to handle. Everything we do is guided by the need for proper security - not exactly something home automation is famous for - and there are scenarios where exposure reaches an unacceptable level. I can't comment on Vera's case specifically as I am not a programmer, but it's evaluation is on the to do list.

The second answer is the one that should satisfy most users : we plan on developing plugins to have a user's HAN gateway interact with our servers to send and receive commands. This is a better scenario as it maintains the dual layer encryption between the device and server and it allows the user to leverage much more advanced features, that would possibly be impractical to implement directly on the HAN gateway. This development was identified as a secondary funding objective, but since there has already been a number of request I see that this may get fastforwarded up the list...

Hope this answers the question !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 25, 2014, 08:44:48 pm
lodup29, you're seeing right into it :)
We are already working with a utility company and it's DR software manufacturer so that Caleo becomes part of their assets. The system is based on a multi-level opt-in scenario by the home owner i.e. you may opt-in for the general DR program for a small compensation but choose to refuse regular events and only accept unscheduled events for example. Keep in mind that this type of control leverages the thermodynamics of a house, so the utility is not saying "it's gonna be 15 degrees in your house". They're saying "hold-off keeping up to 21 degrees for the next 5 minutes" meaning the home owner will likely never even notice a DR event. Caleo displays a special icon during DR events so that it is visible one has happened.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on September 25, 2014, 09:08:04 pm
Thanks T1000 for the updates!

I will wait until the last few days of the campaign to decide if I buy or no the 5 thermostats bundle.

Envoy? de mon Z30 en utilisant Tapatalk

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 25, 2014, 10:17:55 pm
Thanks peterluc8080. You know, if we fail our funding objectives, Kickstarter won't charge your credit card, so there's no risk involved. You'll know in three weeks if you bought them or not, but if you make the commitment now, it'll be that much more help to reach our objective ! Every little bit counts...

Thanks !

Martin
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 26, 2014, 01:08:18 pm
There are two answers to this question : the configuration and provisioning app allows for a custom server location to be specified. One could replace CaSA's server with his own and given that the server has the proper config, the devices would respond. At this time, this scenario poses a serious encryption and security issue we're not yet sure how to handle. Everything we do is guided by the need for proper security - not exactly something home automation is famous for - and there are scenarios where exposure reaches an unacceptable level. I can't comment on Vera's case specifically as I am not a programmer, but it's evaluation is on the to do list.

The second answer is the one that should satisfy most users : we plan on developing plugins to have a user's HAN gateway interact with our servers to send and receive commands. This is a better scenario as it maintains the dual layer encryption between the device and server and it allows the user to leverage much more advanced features, that would possibly be impractical to implement directly on the HAN gateway. This development was identified as a secondary funding objective, but since there has already been a number of request I see that this may get fastforwarded up the list...

Hope this answers the question !
So as of now there's a chance that the remote control of these thermostats will rely entirely on a proprietary cloud service? Honestly I don't feel confident enough in a kick-starter ability to guarantee that the cloud service will be available one year from now. If you can provide an open web service API to directly control these thermostats then I'm in. Customers should decide to enable it or not from the touchscreen local user interface. I feel that the link to the web-based cloud service would be at least as weak (encryption-wise) as the link to talk directly to a HTTPS server running on the thermostat with personal certificates.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on September 26, 2014, 01:20:50 pm
I'm thinking the same as lodup29... I dont want to buy it to found out one year later that I cant control it thru Vera and if by that time a new product goes on sale, I will be I will I will not swear... I will wait.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on September 26, 2014, 03:23:07 pm
I think the same, if i can't control it from vera..it's not good for me. I passed 1 year to make my own android interface for my home automation to control light, pool, energy monitor, etc...If i can't integrate this thermostat to my system...i pass. I need 11 thermostats, i want all of my thermostats react with other hardware. (Window sensor, door lock..etc)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 26, 2014, 03:33:44 pm
I think the same, if i can't control it from vera..it's not good for me. I passed 1 year to make my own android interface for my home automation to control light, pool, energy monitor, etc...If i can't integrate this thermostat to my system...i pass. I need 11 thermostats, i want all of my thermostats react with other hardware. (Window sensor, door lock..etc)
Well I think that it's very likely that you'll be able to. The issue is that the Vera hub will talk to a cloud server which will talk back to your thermostat. Developing a Vera plugin to talk to the cloud service is likely fairly straightforward and I'm sure these guys will come up with it by the end of the year. The issue for me is what's left of my thermostats if these guys go out of business? These thermostats become nothing more than fancy touchscreen enabled locally programmable thermostat?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on September 26, 2014, 04:00:06 pm
You're right. If the server crash, the thermostat is like other standard thermostat. I don't want to buy 11 thermostats at 150$ if my Aube at 35$ do the same...Come on T1000 .. give us a solution for this problem  ???

Thanks!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 26, 2014, 11:37:46 pm
All right, let's slow down here people :)

lodup29 is correct : the ability to control Caleo through your Vera - or any other gateway for that matter - is a simple question of API. As was previously stated, the campaign aims at developing these APIs, not the product itself. The manufacturing run is already in progress, Kickstarter will have no bearing on the product reaching market as we have angel investors and venture capital to keep us going.

Now, you're all pretty technical, so I'll skip the dance and go straight to facts : if the cloud service disappears, you'll simply have to point your thermostats towards another server. That's already implemented, in fact you could this tomorrow morning if you wanted to. But here's the catch : in order to make this device as secure as can be, we've elected to have it talk to a dedicated server and then leverage that server's capabilities to implement much more complex behaviors than most HAN gateways could ever hope to achieve, including demand-response capacities. If you chose to bypass this and control them directly, you'd be left with nothing more than a fancy remote control for your heaters. I'm sure some of you guys have setups that are capable of handling this and make it efficient, but the fact is that the vast majority of people don't. These things aren't light switches or door sensors, in the sense that their hacking or malfunctioning can have a very serious effect on your house.

We feel it's our responsibility to ensure we sell something that is secure and safe, but we're not naive either. We don't want anyone to end up with a wall-mounted paperweight if we were to go under, so the capacity to have the device communicate with a third party is built in. All I'm saying is it probably won't make much sense to use it unless we're gone for good :)

Hope that clears that up ? Keep 'em going if you have more questions !

M.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 27, 2014, 08:59:30 am
These things aren't light switches or door sensors, in the sense that their hacking or malfunctioning can have a very serious effect on your house.

We feel it's our responsibility to ensure we sell something that is secure and safe, but we're not naive either. We don't want anyone to end up with a wall-mounted paperweight if we were to go under, so the capacity to have the device communicate with a third party is built in. All I'm saying is it probably won't make much sense to use it unless we're gone for good :)
What's highest level of granularity for the information exchanged between the thermostat and the server. For example (highest to lowest)
if the cloud service disappears, you'll simply have to point your thermostats towards another server. That's already implemented, in fact you could this tomorrow morning if you wanted to.
Can you provide detailed instructions right away on how we can achieve this?
in order to make this device as secure as can be, we've elected to have it talk to a dedicated server
I feel that doesn't make it more secure as one can do whatever he wants with it through the server. That's 2 hackable links (Thermostats-Server and Server-Client) instead of one.
These things aren't light switches or door sensors, in the sense that their hacking or malfunctioning can have a very serious effect on your house.
Well remotely programmable thermostats have been done before and thermostats working with HAN gateways too. What's so different with these thermostats that it's a safety hazard to do so?
implement much more complex behaviors than most HAN gateways could ever hope to achieve, including demand-response capacities. If you chose to bypass this and control them directly, you'd be left with nothing more than a fancy remote control for your heaters
I think that most folks on this forum are dealing with utilities which are not about to implement demand-response mechanisms. Utilities have to deal with people not capable of understanding that this is on a voluntary basis and that the effect on the room temperature will be negligible (there are a lot of people out there who think that smart meters cause cancer). I think it's a plus that these thermostats are demand-response ready but as most folks on this forum I'm just looking for a smarter line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 27, 2014, 11:34:51 am
Quote
What's highest level of granularity for the information exchanged between the thermostat and the server. For example (highest to lowest)

    Weekly planning
    Current room temperature target
    Duty Cycle
    Raw On/Off
The programming is handled by a timetable, but there's a bit more going on between the device and backend. We monitor humidity level, firmware version, night light level, time/date sync and other goodies. Frankly, we're not sure yet how much of this should be disclosed and to what level of detail. While I appreciate your curiosity is justified, you'll understand that this being a commercial endeavor we have to keep at least a tiny bit of lid on things...

Quote
Can you provide detailed instructions right away on how we can achieve this?
The provisioning app has a field to configure this. You'd just need to run it again and replace the default handling.

Quote
I feel that doesn't make it more secure as one can do whatever he wants with it through the server. That's 2 hackable links (Thermostats-Server and Server-Client) instead of one.
Well, that's one way of seeing it, and I'm not going to argue because nothing is secure. It is as secure as your best effort. Anyone arguing otherwise is a fool. That being said, our decision was meant to circumvent the biggest flaw of all, the user's home network. Every device out there assumes that your WAN is secure and configured properly. We know that's just not true. So we implemented a second level of encryption to cover the use of a device in an unconfigured or improperly protected home network. If you ask me, the instant you have a link between two devices, your security compromise has started, so from that point on it becomes a matter of opinion - and statistics :)

Quote
Well remotely programmable thermostats have been done before and thermostats working with HAN gateways too. What's so different with these thermostats that it's a safety hazard to do so?
There isn't a single thermostat out there that is an electrical control devices. All thermostats - including the most sophisticated ones - are merely remote controls for integrated systems that have their own failsafes and control mechanisms. We swith an electrical load - and a high one  - on and off. Obviously we have the necessary on-board protections to ensure that ultimately the laws of physics will prevail on any wrongful intentions, but one could argue that shutting the heating off is a probably a bigger threat to your house than trying to raise it through the roof. In short, we're playing a role that we feel has a much bigger security profile than a light switch or a door sensor... But again, as previously stated, one is free to disagree with that stance.

Quote
I think that most folks on this forum are dealing with utilities which are not about to implement demand-response mechanisms. Utilities have to deal with people not capable of understanding that this is on a voluntary basis and that the effect on the room temperature will be negligible (there are a lot of people out there who think that smart meters cause cancer). I think it's a plus that these thermostats are demand-response ready but as most folks on this forum I'm just looking for a smarter line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat.
While I agree on the timing argument, we have been involved in discussions with a number of utilities and I'd have to tell you that all of them are involved with demand-response and peak-shifting in one way or another. The hardest part of implementing this is to obtain significant assets for a minimal investment, so that's typically achieved on the distribution side where most people don't realize it. That being said, I understand that it might not be at the top of some people's list as a feature, but it's actually a super important one as it is part of our revenue stream.

I don't want to sound defensive, I'm not trying to excuse anything as there's been extensive research, reflection and consultation on every aspect of our device and it's environment. Not to say it's perfect, in the end it's nothing but a bunch of compromises, but it is what should prove the most efficient for energy management, easiest to use for the average user and as secure as we can make it without jeopardizing function. That being said everything discussed here is reported back to the development team of which I'm part of so this discussion, as many others, will have an impact on the course of our development...

M.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 27, 2014, 11:39:36 am
The provisioning app has a field to configure this. You'd just need to run it again and replace the default handling.
I meant what needs to be implemented on the server side, the substitute for your own server.
if the cloud service disappears, you'll simply have to point your thermostats towards another server. That's already implemented, in fact you could this tomorrow morning if you wanted to.
Frankly, we're not sure yet how much of this should be disclosed and to what level of detail. While I appreciate your curiosity is justified, you'll understand that this being a commercial endeavor we have to keep at least a tiny bit of lid on things...
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here. How could one switch the server if you can't disclose how the other server is expected to communicate with the thermostat?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 27, 2014, 12:36:17 pm
Quote
I feel that doesn't make it more secure as one can do whatever he wants with it through the server. That's 2 hackable links (Thermostats-Server and Server-Client) instead of one.
Well, that's one way of seeing it, and I'm not going to argue because nothing is secure. It is as secure as your best effort. Anyone arguing otherwise is a fool. That being said, our decision was meant to circumvent the biggest flaw of all, the user's home network. Every device out there assumes that your WAN is secure and configured properly. We know that's just not true. So we implemented a second level of encryption to cover the use of a device in an unconfigured or improperly protected home network. If you ask me, the instant you have a link between two devices, your security compromise has started, so from that point on it becomes a matter of opinion - and statistics :)
Even if my home network was completely non-secured, if the communication between the thermostat and the server relies on the same encryption as the communication between the client and your server, how is it less secure? It's like putting 2 resistances in parallel. No matter how high the second resistance is the equivalent resistance will always be at least as low as the lowest one. The best effort for me would be to get rid of that second resistance if the user wants to and to beef up the remaining one if the user wants to (ex: Encrypted and authenticated VPN encapsulating HTTPS) which I'd probably wouldn't as I feel that HTTPS is secure enough. I'm not saying that your scheme is not secure. I'm just saying that security should not justify that scheme.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 27, 2014, 12:50:19 pm
Quote
Well remotely programmable thermostats have been done before and thermostats working with HAN gateways too. What's so different with these thermostats that it's a safety hazard to do so?
There isn't a single thermostat out there that is an electrical control devices. All thermostats - including the most sophisticated ones - are merely remote controls for integrated systems that have their own failsafes and control mechanisms. We swith an electrical load - and a high one  - on and off. Obviously we have the necessary on-board protections to ensure that ultimately the laws of physics will prevail on any wrongful intentions, but one could argue that shutting the heating off is a probably a bigger threat to your house than trying to raise it through the roof. In short, we're playing a role that we feel has a much bigger security profile than a light switch or a door sensor... But again, as previously stated, one is free to disagree with that stance.
... and the end result is exactly the same. I feel that the fact that the end control for the heating element is not within the thermostat has very little to do with the choice of the remote control capabilities of the thermostat.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 27, 2014, 01:07:13 pm
Well, I believe I have done the best I could to answer your questions. I appreciate your take on this but since it's turning into a debate of opinions, I'd rather not venture there and concede that our device does not match your needs.

Thanks for the input !

M.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 27, 2014, 01:31:18 pm
Well, I believe I have done the best I could to answer your questions. I appreciate your take on this but since it's turning into a debate of opinions, I'd rather not venture there and concede that our device does not match your needs.

Thanks for the input !

M.
Agreed. This is getting nowhere.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on September 27, 2014, 04:23:59 pm
i am not a technical guy. all i want is a wifi enabled thermostat that i can simply put in place of the existing programable line thermostat, link with my wifi network, load an app on my phone, ipad, laptop, and control the thermostats.  last thing i need is to have to rely on a third party server to control the thermostats.

why is it so difficult to get manifacturers to figure this out and build simple line thermostat with a wifi link? there are plenty of models for furnaces and 24 v.

my cottage has 12 thermostats. all i want is to repla?e them all, myself with wifi devices... i considered alternative (aube relays and 24v thermostats, Econnect, etc...). these are expensive options and require electrician.

if Caleo will allow me (not you) to control the thermostats myself ( not through your server) then i will buy 12 immediately.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on September 27, 2014, 08:08:06 pm
Why the thermostat is WIFI and not Zwave?
Is for accommodate more people?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 28, 2014, 09:10:54 am
Hello mitnick29. Yes, very simply put, it's as sad a reason as that.
goldbug, same argument here : Line-voltage thermostats are a tiny market, z-wave users are a tiny portion of that tiny market... We're not even talking tens of thousands here.

A number of people in various discussions wondered why no one was making this, the answer is simple : it makes absolutely no sense. Yet we didn't let that stop us as we saw an opportunity on another level : turn it into an energy management asset.

For that reason - and all others outlined earlier - it means that Caleo has to rely on a backend, it's simple logic really. If we want this device to be accepted by a wide user base, it has to be simple and it has to work out the box. You can read refer to lodup29's discussion to see more detailed answers from me. I have no problem in conceding that this is not perfect for everyone as I know - emphasis : I know for a fact - that this is the only way to create such a device and support it during it's expected 10-years-plus lifetime. Read it again, it doesn't mean you won't control or integrate it with your home automation, but like a growing number of devices out there, you'll have to rely on some remote intelligence to make this truly efficient.

This is maths and economics, not matter how we feel about it, we went the only way that wasn't a mandatory bankruptcy :)

I understand that some feel uneasy at the risk of us disappearing with our cloud service, but as I said before there are provisions to circumvent this. We are backed by serious people with serious money, we feel we have a good chance at making this work. Moreover, I hope that this discussion will have outlined how transparent we are with this business !

Cheers !

M.

 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on September 28, 2014, 03:30:14 pm
i dont get it. no market. In Canada ther must be millions of households with baseboard heaters. in Quebec alone, the majority of houses have baseboards with several thermostats. 

last thing i need is to trust a third party about my home comfort. if i need connection to an outside server, Caleo is not for me....i pass.

back to conssider aube relays and 24v thermostats
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: alien8er on September 28, 2014, 03:51:16 pm
T1000 - Thanks for running with an idea and making it a reality.  Very impressive that you saw a need and are actually coming out with something that people will be using in the near future. 

I'm not an electrician by any means so I thought I would ask, if I have a single thermostat (in my kitchen) that's controls 2 - 240V baseboards, does that require additional equipment or would the standard controller be able to handle this load?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 28, 2014, 04:33:14 pm
i dont get it. no market. In Canada ther must be millions of households with baseboard heaters. in Quebec alone, the majority of houses have baseboards with several thermostats. 

last thing i need is to trust a third party about my home comfort. if i need connection to an outside server, Caleo is not for me....i pass.

back to conssider aube relays and 24v thermostats
If somebody else is about to do it I'd bet on Honeywell. If enough people are asking (https://yourhome.honeywell.com/home/Applications/ContactUs.aspx) (that's what I did) they might jump in. They currently have the RedLINK (https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US/pages/product.aspx?cat=HonECC%20Catalog&pid=YTL9160AR1000/U) line but it's far from perfect (for one thing it apparently (http://www.amazon.ca/Honeywell-YTL9160AR1000-Wireless-Voltage-Thermostat/dp/B006W64NYA#rev-dpForeignMktReviews-R3AQHCU28WNQTX) doesn't integrate well with other home automation systems, if you're on this forum I guess that's a deal breaker).
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 28, 2014, 05:54:26 pm
alien8er - Thanks for the feedback, it's wasn't easy but we're seeing now that it was worth it... To answer your question I would need to know the strenght of your baseboards. You can certainly put more than one on a single thermostat, but the combined wattage can not exceed 3500 watts. So you could have two 1500 watts units linked to the same controller, but not two 2000 watts units...

Basically, Caleo has the same specs as the thermostats you find in store, therefore it should simply swap with your existing device.

goldbug - Don't take my word for it, by all means look it up. It's not as if we haven't...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on September 28, 2014, 06:07:54 pm
spot on lodup29

i considerd that option too. costly and cumbersome to imstall. plus the thermostat works on AA batteries.

the best option is still the aube relays and 24v thermostats ( anyone got a better option?) also with the aube relays i can put one on the water heater and water pump so i can swithc them on and off remotely too.  the only drawback i need to install several relays and fish a thermostat wire to the rooms i want to control. not easy to retrofit....

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on September 28, 2014, 06:22:54 pm
plus the thermostat works on AA batteries.
Yeah I wonder about the autonomy and what happens when the thermostat is out of battery. So far all I got from Honeywell is
Quote from: Honeywell Customer care.
We apologize to inform you that we do not have any battery operated line voltage thermostat.
Still I guess it's worth asking for them to design one (I mean not a battery operated line voltage thermostat but a drop-in substitute for line-voltage baseboard heater thermostats with remote capabilities and integration with other home automation systems).
the best option is still the aube relays and 24v thermostats
Indeed the RC840T (http://www.aubetech.com/manuel/2/RC840T.pdf) looks fairly easy to retrofit. Which thermostat do you have in mind?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: AgentPrefect on September 29, 2014, 11:48:16 am
Hi T1000,

Thanks for putting this together. I backed the Kickstarter (how do I get more than 6?). I took this for granted but would like to confirm. Does the thermostat support variable output or is it just on/off?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on September 29, 2014, 02:19:36 pm
Hello AgentPerfect,
First, thanks for being a backer ! We have updated the rewards choice as you're not the only one asking for more than what we had offered. If you want to update your pledge and reward, go right ahead as changes should be up by now.
Secondly, I understand your question as referring to "pulsing" or cycling the load on varying time lapses. We do that like a lot of electronic thermostat as it's a much more efficient way to maintain a room temperature without a constant overshoot or undershoot.  Someone the other day was asking whether we'd allow for the setpoint to be a variable (i.e. between 19.5 to 21.5) to account for room activity. We haven't yet validated if that's a good idea or not, but if it is, we 'll make it part of the next revision... Caleo updates OTA, just like your phone !

If that's not the answer your were looking for, let me know !

M.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on September 29, 2014, 06:37:41 pm
lodup29 - that is the right relay. not sure what is the best configuration and the best thermostats. this install is for a cottage.  i was planning to install the aube relays near the pannel in dedicated boxes and attach wifi controlers to them so i can place the thermostats in the rooms i want to control temperature. i also want to install on/off switches to my hot water tank and water pump amd control them remotely too?

the other more expansive option is to use the honeywell econnect devices which have the relays and the wifi controlers... just more expansive....

still not sure which thermostats i will use
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sturgeon86 on September 30, 2014, 02:14:44 pm
@T1000 Since english is not one of my strenght I want to make sure about a thing. Reading all the post what comes out is that in the unlikely event that you need to shutdown the main server or in the event we do not want to rely on that server we can use a plan B with a local "server" ? If so will this solution be available at the launch ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: plamoureux on October 01, 2014, 04:21:43 pm
Thank you for the good explanation of the bussiness model. Very interesting product and original bussiness model around it. I am sure that Hydro-Qu?bec would be interested. I am already a bi-energie client in my main house, who is control by a honeywell wifi thermostat in parallel with a Vera controller. I miss a basic integration with my vera controller, but it is still workable.

My second house is also Vera control but with basebord heating and i am looking for some form of remote control over the heating. I have no problem with cloud control but a basic integration with the local vera controller would be nice.  Anyway, i will be in for your product.

I am not sure about it, but if the devices could register on the local home network as a uPnP devices, they could expose a basic set of control and sensors that could be tap-in by Vera local controller without disrupting the general cloud framework and with a very loose  (and cheap) integration dev and low security concerns.

Good day
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 01, 2014, 07:46:56 pm
@sturgeon86, this is correct. The capacity to communicate with another server already exists and will be there, in the app, at launch. Let me point out however that we will not provide an offline application to go along with it. We'll collaborate with whoever wants to work on it, but our plate is more than full for now.

@sturgeon86, votre int?rpr?taion est correcte. La possibilit? de nommer un serveur diff?rent du n?tre sur l'appareil existe d?j?, et sera inclus dans l'app au moment du lancement. Par contre, nous ne fabriquerons aucune application "offline" pour l'accompagner, du moins pour l'instant. Nous serons heureux de collaborer avec quiconque voudrait s'aventurer ? la faire, mais en ce qui nous concerne, nous n'avons ni le temps ni les ressources pour y travailler.

Merci !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on October 01, 2014, 07:56:25 pm
@sturgeon86, this is correct. The capacity to communicate with another server already exists and will be there, in the app, at launch. Let me point out however that we will not provide an offline application to go along with it. We'll collaborate with whoever wants to work on it, but our plate is more than full for now.

@sturgeon86, votre int?rpr?taion est correcte. La possibilit? de nommer un serveur diff?rent du n?tre sur l'appareil existe d?j?, et sera inclus dans l'app au moment du lancement. Par contre, nous ne fabriquerons aucune application "offline" pour l'accompagner, du moins pour l'instant. Nous serons heureux de collaborer avec quiconque voudrait s'aventurer ? la faire, mais en ce qui nous concerne, nous n'avons ni le temps ni les ressources pour y travailler.

Merci !
I understand that you won't provide an application, but I don't need it, but can you provide the basic format of each command the thermostat can do?

Like, what is the format to send a heat command to 21' C, turn off heat, etc.

Do you have a pdf or something? That it easy to create my own app or vera plugin.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 01, 2014, 08:13:23 pm
peterluc8080 - Good question, I'm not sure of what we can, can't, will and won't release. That's not exactly my department, so I'll have to ask. I know there have been discussions about what parts can be made public, let me see if we know where we stand on this...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 01, 2014, 08:17:08 pm
I understand that you won't provide an application, but I don't need it, but can you provide the basic format of each command the thermostat can do?

Like, what is the format to send a heat command to 21' C, turn off heat, etc.
It's probably not as easy as that. First of all I believe that the server publishes the information to be fetched by the thermostat. If the thermostat can't connect over HTTP and that a certificate provided by a trusted authority is required by the thermostat things are not looking good. Then the information encapsulated into HTTPS is also re-encrypted a second time, not sure in which way. If they are willing to document everything properly and that the amount of work appears reasonable I'd be willing to purchase a single thermostat and give it a try.

Ce n'est probablement pas aussi facile. Premierement je pense qu'un serveur HTTPS doit etre mis sur pied, ce dernier publiant de l'information recuperee par le thermostat. Si le thermostat ne peut se connecter par HTTP et qu'un certificat d'une autoritee reconnue est requis par le thermostat tu es mal barre. Ensuite l'information deja encapsulee en HTTPS est re-encryptee une second fois, je ne suis pas certain de quelle facon. Perso s'ils sont prets a documenter le tout et que le travail ne semble pas trop titanesque je serais pret a acheter un thermostat pour essayer.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on October 01, 2014, 08:17:49 pm
peterluc8080 - Good question, I'm not sure of what we can, can't, will and won't release. That's not exactly my department, so I'll have to ask. I know there have been discussions about what parts can be made public, let me see if we know where we stand on this...
Thanks! If I can at least send a heat command and the temperature to heat the room until it reach that number and turn it off. I will buy 5 for my condo.

Im able to write c, c++, php and java so that's not a problem.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on October 06, 2014, 01:26:58 pm
Did you received an answer?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: joylove on October 07, 2014, 01:22:19 am
Damn so close but no cigar. This product needs to be zigbee, BTLE or z-wave enabled to get traction in a smart home, for these reasons

1 People who buy this item are likely to own or purchase other smart items. Living in a wifi bubble is a dead end. 

2 To recoup the high purchase cost of $125/node you need to promise savings, which means occupancy sensors and outdoor sensors to turn off the heat when needed and maintain the temperature better to allow a lower setpoint. Since you don't make the sensors, and aeon labs and smartthings do, then it's time to play nice.

3 Offering an HTTP API doesn't work. The smart hub people won't bother to integrate your thing with their thing because they don't have the time, motivation or resources.  As an owner of multiple supposedly-mainstream smart things I have learned the hard way that a native radio protocol is mandatory in any new purchase going forward, otherwise you end up with a load of crap that doesn't play together waiting for some sketchy port of 50% the supported functions promised in some forum post somewhere. Your smart dimming RGB bulb becomes on/off with no status reporting for example.

4 Ditch the stand alone app approach. A smart home is made of more than one function grouped together and working in symphony. I don't want to pull my phone out to adjust the temperature when I already have a $30 dumb stat waiting the wall with a nice chunky knob to twiddle, it's a step backwards in ergonomics. I should pull my phone out to monitor usage, PID curves, comparisons with well insulated buildings, things a knob doesn't convey. That's how you open wallets.

5 The screen doesn't need to be colour. I have iPhones for that. Whatever.

6 emphasize if you use a triac and if you offer modeling for the house/room.

Cheers
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tameanaka on October 07, 2014, 01:15:16 pm
Well put joylove. I have to say even though I am just getting started with smart things, I am a little disappointed in this as well. The super high upfront cost immediately takes me out of the game as well as the wi-fi bubble, lol.

I am no expert by any means, but it cannot be that difficult to develop something like a TH-114 that is z-wave capable.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on October 07, 2014, 03:33:29 pm
Damn so close but no cigar. This product needs to be zigbee, BTLE or z-wave enabled to get traction in a smart home, for these reasons

1 People who buy this item are likely to own or purchase other smart items. Living in a wifi bubble is a dead end. 

2 To recoup the high purchase cost of $125/node you need to promise savings, which means occupancy sensors and outdoor sensors to turn off the heat when needed and maintain the temperature better to allow a lower setpoint. Since you don't make the sensors, and aeon labs and smartthings do, then it's time to play nice.

3 Offering an HTTP API doesn't work. The smart hub people won't bother to integrate your thing with their thing because they don't have the time, motivation or resources.  As an owner of multiple supposedly-mainstream smart things I have learned the hard way that a native radio protocol is mandatory in any new purchase going forward, otherwise you end up with a load of crap that doesn't play together waiting for some sketchy port of 50% the supported functions promised in some forum post somewhere. Your smart dimming RGB bulb becomes on/off with no status reporting for example.

4 Ditch the stand alone app approach. A smart home is made of more than one function grouped together and working in symphony. I don't want to pull my phone out to adjust the temperature when I already have a $30 dumb stat waiting the wall with a nice chunky knob to twiddle, it's a step backwards in ergonomics. I should pull my phone out to monitor usage, PID curves, comparisons with well insulated buildings, things a knob doesn't convey. That's how you open wallets.

5 The screen doesn't need to be colour. I have iPhones for that. Whatever.

6 emphasize if you use a triac and if you offer modeling for the house/room.

Cheers

+1
what's i trying to say in my first post.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: ipstas on October 08, 2014, 03:52:27 pm

While this conversation started with a Z-Wave enabled device, Caleo runs on Wi-Fi as it was a much more market-friendly protocol. Work is still ongoing with proprietary protocols and we would like to hear from you if you feel the Wi-Fi version doesn't cut it for you.


Kinda disappointing.


And why you call it smart? There is nothing smart in having it operated from the phone, it is just a remote connection.

If you create zwave line voltage thermostat, I would jump on it (make it two please), I even don't need it to be programmable, but buying something for 125CAD and then creating my own plugin for Vera is not exactly how I want to spend my time and money.

Sorry, I will pass this time
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 08, 2014, 07:08:14 pm
No local control (did I miss it?), so when wifi is down I have no control over thermostat?
There's a touchscreen. They don't say what level of control it provides. All we know is that you can select an alternative server from there but I would assume it provides locally the same level of control as the one provided through the web server.
Wifi only and phone only client, no zwave, no zigbee, means there is no integration into existing  smarthubs
There's no reason why most home automation hubs wouldn't be able to talk over IP to the thermostat or server provided that the hub is connected to the LAN or WAN respectively.
why it is better than programmable sitting on my wall already
Well it does provide facilities to remotely control and program your thermostat from the WAN. No other line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat provides such facilities.
And why you call it smart? There is nothing smart in having it operated from the phone, it is just a remote connection.
I believe it's not operated (hopefully) but rather programmed from a phone. It's just as smart as a programmable thermostat with added remote and demand/response facilities.
If for any reason you will decide to pivot, will get out of money or whatever happens to your cloud, I have the dead piece of tech with no way to use it
Have to agree with you on this one unless they actually document their API. Another question which I believe hasn't been raised so far. I'm pretty much out too but still. Will the cloud service be and remain free for end users? I don't believe it's explicitly said anywhere.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: ipstas on October 08, 2014, 07:59:15 pm
yeah, I saw about alternative server. Believe me, I am quite IT capable guy, but having another server at home is not what I want. If I assume it right of course, because no details were provided.

Most smarthubs would not be able to connect to that thing because they have no way to connect to it. Let's say I have chinese TV, it has wifi connection and I even can watch youtube on it. Will it make Vera3 to be able to connect to it and control it. No, of course not. So why Vera3 will be able to connect to that thing?

Somebody needs to create the plugin first, and before that that somebody needs to know API for that thing, and then they were talking about some highly double encrypted protocol (they in fact lost me there, what is it, https or ssl is not good enough?). And all that effort for what? And who will pay for it? Most plugins on micasa site are versions 0.0something.

In understand having a way to control over WAN is something new in their UVP, but to have for that another nonintegrated app on a phone? Come on, I have Imperihome and I am quite happy with the remote control it provides, more that that, I can use PLEG or create my own luup and integrate with a lot of things (send text to TTS on ubuntu, use NFC stickers, so on). But that thermostat will require too much effort on my side even it would have an API.

It is not a cheap one, 125CAD is something I would pay when I really see something I want. I have already programmable thermostats, to replace it I need some incentive than just a remote control through the cloud I even not sure will be there.

And the cloud cant be free, that business model can not live for long, it needs to be paid either by ads or with service fee. I just forgot to mention it, so thank you, but I stay with Vera3 and just plain old relay for the line voltage
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 08, 2014, 08:05:08 pm
Totally agreed although technically the vera hub has a built in web server which could theoretically be used for these thermostat but as of UI7 I don't believe that the MiOS plugin API provides anything to publish an arbitrary content. I think that their business model is to provide a demand/response service to electric utilities. Maybe this is why they don't want to document anything (what would prevent the utility to implement its own server and bypass them?). On the other hand I don't see why the demand/response service and the daily programming service could not be 2 completely different things.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: joylove on October 13, 2014, 11:22:31 pm
Reading up on Homekit, if this item supported it, it doesn't necessarily need another radio.

The thermostat API is made available for apps against a standard. some third party can write a nice app for it with a good UI and some smarts.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 14, 2014, 07:00:38 am
Reading up on Homekit, if this item supported it, it doesn't necessarily need another radio.

The thermostat API is made available for apps against a standard. some third party can write a nice app for it with a good UI and some smarts.
the same is true for the Vera controller as long as it goes through the cloud server. I don't see anything in Apple's HomeKit (https://developer.apple.com/homekit/) that would allow one to publish any web content from a web server running on a hub such as Apple TV.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 14, 2014, 10:54:12 am
That's a lot of follow-up... Sorry I missed so much of the conversation.

I'll go with joylove's post, the points raised address a lot of questions asked by others. Remember, I'm not trying to get into an opinion debate. We did what we did after years (yes, not weeks or months, years) of observing the home automation landscape and it's associated technology. You don't launch something like this based on opinions, but on cold, hard economical facts. That being said, some of our development decisions aren't in line with my own personal taste, but that's ok, that's why we have research on the subject :)

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Damn so close but no cigar. This product needs to be zigbee, BTLE or z-wave enabled to get traction in a smart home, for these reasons

1 People who buy this item are likely to own or purchase other smart items. Living in a wifi bubble is a dead end. 
We started off with Z-wave and zigbee, but the numbers don't lie : WiFi is by far the most commonly adopted protocol in households everywhere, period. The use of any other protocol implies the need for a bridge or gateway. From a business standpoint, WiFi is headed anywhere but down: it has the widest acceptability base, is preferred and understood by most and allows the best native interoperability. Notice I didn't say "it's the most appropriate" ? Because it's not. You know that, I know that, but I'd rather make something my mom understands rather than try to educate her to Zigbee and Zwave operations. If utilities start leveraging these protocols and educate the public, we'll be the first on board but right now it's not happening and it looks less and less likely to happen.

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2 To recoup the high purchase cost of $125/node you need to promise savings, which means occupancy sensors and outdoor sensors to turn off the heat when needed and maintain the temperature better to allow a lower setpoint. Since you don't make the sensors, and aeon labs and smartthings do, then it's time to play nice.
With a regular "dumb" programmable thermostat selling between 60 to 80 $, we didn't feel we went overboard with the price. In fact, if you go further up in this thread, there's a few people stating prices in the 100's, with the side note that it'll probably cost more. Obviously, volume is key, this is as good as we can make it for now. The savings part is much more complicated than a matter of sensors. A forced-air furnace or heat pump will move hot air very quickly, giving a cozy feeling in a pretty short time. Baseboard heaters rely on mass, that is the mass of everything in your house. It's furniture, walls, etc. It has been proven scientifically that in this system, the use of real-time sensors brings no added-value, even being counter-productive at times. Efficiency is achieved through learning the thermodynamics involved in a house, then exploiting it. Again, not pulling this from thin air, the study that governs our development shows a 35% increase in efficiency... So let's say 35% savings. On the outdoor sensor part you have a point. We will leverage the weather available online at first, but being that it's not alway very reliable, we really want to see our own remote sensing device in our catalog. One thing at a time if we don't want to screw it up :)

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3 Offering an HTTP API doesn't work. The smart hub people won't bother to integrate your thing with their thing because they don't have the time, motivation or resources.  As an owner of multiple supposedly-mainstream smart things I have learned the hard way that a native radio protocol is mandatory in any new purchase going forward, otherwise you end up with a load of crap that doesn't play together waiting for some sketchy port of 50% the supported functions promised in some forum post somewhere. Your smart dimming RGB bulb becomes on/off with no status reporting for example.

I agree ! Except this product wasn't developed for the "smart-hub people" first. While we want to cater to as much people as possible, you must realize that we (you, me and everyone here) are part of an infinitely small group of the general population with the know-how and willingness to spend waaay too much time and waaay to much money on getting stuff to do what we want. I'd elaborate with my theory on this, but let's stick to facts : Apple and Nest won their market hands down because they came out with the solution that fit the other 99% of the population. We're only following the model... It doesn't mean we don't want smart hub integration, it's just that we won't start there. We want this to work with Vera, Revolv and all others out there, we'll get to it, just not right at this time. And before it happens, an IFTTT channel will likely be our best bet. The whole reason I hang out here is to have this conversation so we'll have a better idea of what needs to be done for the home automation "connoisseur".

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4 Ditch the stand alone app approach. A smart home is made of more than one function grouped together and working in symphony. I don't want to pull my phone out to adjust the temperature when I already have a $30 dumb stat waiting the wall with a nice chunky knob to twiddle, it's a step backwards in ergonomics. I should pull my phone out to monitor usage, PID curves, comparisons with well insulated buildings, things a knob doesn't convey. That's how you open wallets.

This we wholeheartedly agree with. The app is only necessary to provision the WiFi on initial installation. You can ditch it after that and we indeed want to be integrated with other smart home controls, as per the above explanations.

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5 The screen doesn't need to be colour. I have iPhones for that. Whatever.


It doesn't have to, but we couldn't resist :) Our new GUI is coming up this week, it looks super nice while being neutral enough to not become a nuisance, something we feel our current UI has failed to achieve.

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6 emphasize if you use a triac and if you offer modeling for the house/room.

Interesting comment. We felt that TRIAC switching was a given, we'll clarify this. Mechanically speaking, we're not different from what's out there on the market, that is you can paint the casing if you want to and we use TRIAC switching and air cooling, although our configuration is quite different and results in a cooler device. Older electronic thermostats tend to heat up so much that they sometimes darken the paint above them over time. One could argue that a heating thermostat isn't counterproductive, but we still see it as a parasitic effect.

Again, no flamming please. I'm just explaining what drove our choices with the development of Caleo. The rules of this game are still being written and there is no clear winner in the protocol war. Everyone - including myself and my team - has their own opinion of what constitutes the ideal "connected home", but just like with smartphones, tablets, PCs and every other widely used technology, it begins with social acceptability. X-10 has been around since the 80's, with people swearing back then that within 10 years everyone would have it. Just like Microsoft and it's tablet felt they were on to something in the 90's and flunked miserably. Sometimes, it's not so much about the product then about the business model. That's where we hope we'll differ from the "take the money and run" approach we see with a lot of tech startups. We accept that Caleo will not please everyone, but it doesn't mean we're not willing to try :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 14, 2014, 11:08:02 am
Totally agreed although technically the vera hub has a built in web server which could theoretically be used for these thermostat but as of UI7 I don't believe that the MiOS plugin API provides anything to publish an arbitrary content. I think that their business model is to provide a demand/response service to electric utilities. Maybe this is why they don't want to document anything (what would prevent the utility to implement its own server and bypass them?). On the other hand I don't see why the demand/response service and the daily programming service could not be 2 completely different things.

Your take on our business model is right. However, the reason we're not currently documenting is quite simple: we were first out of the gate with a solution for this problem and although we're nice guys, handing over the recipe to a problem the competition hasn't yet managed to solve doesn't sound like a good business plan. We're not worried one bit about being bypassed. The last thing utilities want is to deal with assets on a local level. Nest's 3.2 bill$ deal speaks volume to the fact that utilities want the accessibility, but none of the hassle.
I agree with your last comment and we are looking at keeping both universes as separate as can be. One, because we don't like the idea of control by a third party without explicit opt-in, two because they can't interfere with each other for the sake of ergonomic interaction.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 14, 2014, 11:32:23 am
No local control (did I miss it?), so when wifi is down I have no control over thermostat?
There's a touchscreen. They don't say what level of control it provides. All we know is that you can select an alternative server from there but I would assume it provides locally the same level of control as the one provided through the web server.
Wifi only and phone only client, no zwave, no zigbee, means there is no integration into existing  smarthubs
There's no reason why most home automation hubs wouldn't be able to talk over IP to the thermostat or server provided that the hub is connected to the LAN or WAN respectively.
why it is better than programmable sitting on my wall already
Well it does provide facilities to remotely control and program your thermostat from the WAN. No other line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat provides such facilities.
And why you call it smart? There is nothing smart in having it operated from the phone, it is just a remote connection.
I believe it's not operated (hopefully) but rather programmed from a phone. It's just as smart as a programmable thermostat with added remote and demand/response facilities.
If for any reason you will decide to pivot, will get out of money or whatever happens to your cloud, I have the dead piece of tech with no way to use it
Have to agree with you on this one unless they actually document their API. Another question which I believe hasn't been raised so far. I'm pretty much out too but still. Will the cloud service be and remain free for end users? I don't believe it's explicitly said anywhere.

May I kindly suggest a visit to casaconnect.com (http://casaconnect.com) or our Kickstarter campaign http://kck.st/1svcOOn (http://kck.st/1svcOOn) ?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 15, 2014, 06:23:16 pm
the reason we're not currently documenting is quite simple: we were first out of the gate with a solution for this problem and although we're nice guys, handing over the recipe to a problem the competition hasn't yet managed to solve doesn't sound like a good business plan. We're not worried one bit about being bypassed. The last thing utilities want is to deal with assets on a local level. Nest's 3.2 bill$ deal speaks volume to the fact that utilities want the accessibility, but none of the hassle.
I agree with your last comment and we are looking at keeping both universes as separate as can be. One, because we don't like the idea of control by a third party without explicit opt-in, two because they can't interfere with each other for the sake of ergonomic interaction.
Just a simple remote API (ideally web service based) implementing the same level of control as the one you have from the touch-screen interface without exposing any critical intellectual property would seem like a win-win.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: ipstas on October 16, 2014, 12:56:43 pm
Let me put it simple
1. You promise some API in the future but nothing ready yet, so we don't know how we will be able to use it. And talking about proprietary whatever is not a time - you are trying to sell it to me. So it is either you show to me what your API can do for me or it means you can not sell on this.
2. It is not connecting to any existing sensors (they are all zigbee, zwave, X10 or something, but not wifi)
3. It can not be integrated into any existing smarthome solution as for now.
4. But you asking for money now.

The only advantage over the existing programmable thermostats you have is that there is a remote control. If I was on a market to buy a new one, I maybe would go. But the deal is a lot of us are not buying for the new construction, but looking to retrofit the existing line voltage heaters. It definitely doesn't work for me to buy another standalone solution when I have already perfectly working Vera and I just want to buy something that works with my smarthome hub. So you want to make it wifi, great, but provide the ready plugin then.

It looks like your kickstarter will not go through, I would cancel it for now, regroup and do it again with redesigned and more appealing solution. Run a survey here and ask how many people would buy it with different features.
- zwave
- wifi
- cloud
- local control

Sorry for the bluntness
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on October 16, 2014, 08:15:44 pm
You promise some API in the future but nothing ready yet, so we don't know how we will be able to use it. And talking about proprietary whatever is not a time - you are trying to sell it to me. So it is either you show to me what your API can do for me or it means you can not sell on this.
Agreed. The server switching feature without a documented API is completely irrelevant with regards to what was previously discussed on this thread. It shouldn't have been brought up.
It is not connecting to any existing sensors (they are all zigbee, zwave, X10 or something, but not wifi
Not directly but I think it could easily poll these sensors though the hub.
3. It can not be integrated into any existing smarthome solution as for now.
4. But you asking for money now.
Well that's pretty much what you should expect from a kickstarter project. I funded Tablo (http://www.tablotv.com) last year and at the time I received the unit it was actually completely useless unless you had an iPad but that's the idea and if you bet on the right horse you'll end up with a fantastic device 6 months later. Here the main issue for me is that it's likely that the thermostat will require a new firmware to implement cloudless remote capabilities which I'm afraid they might not be allowed to do after the certification process. 
It looks like your kickstarter will not go through
I don't think these people rely on this too much. I believe they are funded by the guy from the Cirque du Soleil. It's probably more for publicity and they'll release a statement like Although we didn't reach our financial goal we consider this campaign a success as we gathered some excellent feedback ... we will honor the pricing ... etc.. Even if they reach their goal it will probably barely pay the certification.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 17, 2014, 01:08:00 am
@ipstas, I'll happily concede that this product is not for you. Developing a product is not something you do based on opinions or feelings and the reason for my being here is to gather ideas and feedback. Thanks for expressing yours.

@Ninja robot from space, you are partially correct. The results of the Kickstarter campaign have no bearing on whether or not the product is happening since it's already being manufactured. We wanted to add a number of features and make the launch product even better than our initial intentions, but it looks like that's not going to happen :)
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I believe they are funded by the guy from the Cirque du Soleil
You did your homeworks ! Clever of you to connect the dots, but alas, Guy Lalibert? is not involved in CaSA...

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Even if they reach their goal it will probably barely pay the certification.
Barely :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: ipstas on October 17, 2014, 02:26:35 pm
@Ninja robot from space

Sure, it might poll sensors through existing smarthome hub. But the problem is it would use the nonexisting (for the moment and maybe never) api.
And I am a big believer in the right Kickstarter campaign, it can give you the great push. But it needs to be the right one, like Pebble for example. The message was clear, the solution was appealing, the results is $10M.

I am working myself for the startup and our kickstarter should be out in 4-6 month and we are trying to cross all t's and dot all i's before we are there. We are running numerous surveys, we are talking to people, we are trying to get the general feeling if this is the right product or we need  to pivot now.

@T1000

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but again, you are running a kickstarter campaign, so you should be aware how your kickstarter looks like from the outer side and it is not just my opinion, it is your early adopters number.

I am happy you have secured funding, I hope I can use your product in the future. If/when you will have it integratable.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: CaSA on October 21, 2014, 09:29:20 am
@ipstas, don't worry about my feelings. I assure you forum talk has no grasp whatsoever on my person :) I very much stand by every word I've said so far and it's quite okay if you disagree with it. I'm not selling what I don't have.

Good luck with XLazz !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: joylove on October 28, 2014, 08:01:55 pm
With a regular "dumb" programmable thermostat selling between 60 to 80 $, we didn't feel we went overboard with the price. In fact, if you go further up in this thread, there's a few people stating prices in the 100's, with the side note that it'll probably cost more. Obviously, volume is key, this is as good as we can make it for now. The savings part is much more complicated than a matter of sensors. A forced-air furnace or heat pump will move hot air very quickly, giving a cozy feeling in a pretty short time. Baseboard heaters rely on mass, that is the mass of everything in your house. It's furniture, walls, etc. It has been proven scientifically that in this system, the use of real-time sensors brings no added-value, even being counter-productive at times. Efficiency is achieved through learning the thermodynamics involved in a house, then exploiting it. Again, not pulling this from thin air, the study that governs our development shows a 35% increase in efficiency... So let's say 35% savings. On the outdoor sensor part you have a point. We will leverage the weather available online at first, but being that it's not alway very reliable, we really want to see our own remote sensing device in our catalog. One thing at a time if we don't want to screw it up :)
  One of the unique aspects of electric heating is the ability to disable empty rooms. Also some people live in sunny California and really only need to heat bedrooms from say 6am to 8am. Also there is a mixed method of fan-forced and baseboard available in electric heated homes.

There is no greater saving than turning it off when the room is unoccupied.  Thermal modeling is not mutually exclusive to occupancy sensing.

Right now you take away choice when you take away integration with home automation, and electric heat has many combinations.
Quote from: T1000
Interesting comment. We felt that TRIAC switching was a given, we'll clarify this. Mechanically speaking, we're not different from what's out there on the market, that is you can paint the casing if you want to and we use TRIAC switching and air cooling, although our configuration is quite different and results in a cooler device. Older electronic thermostats tend to heat up so much that they sometimes darken the paint above them over time. One could argue that a heating thermostat isn't counterproductive, but we still see it as a parasitic effect.
the other point I was going for is a 12-15A triac is pretty special - most line voltage stats are 3A for Triac, or a 10-15A relay on a 15 minutes duty cycle which suits hydronic and underfloor heating but not convection. A triac with convection heat with PID curves could make things much more comfortable that anyone else's solution.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on November 16, 2014, 12:36:27 pm
there is competition for Caleo....

it is called Sinop?, it is reasonably priced ($199 for wifi gateway and 2 thermostats, $69 for each additional thermostat) and it is available now.

you can buy online at sinopetech dot com or
it is also available at selected Rona stores (not online)

bought a kit yesterday at Rona, replaced 2 old thermostats in 20 minutes, activated in no time through the free web interface. straigth forward to connect and activate

nice and easy.... will try that for a while and if no issues, then gone all other old thermostats and welcome remote contol of my baseboard heaters at my cottage.....

is this the Holy Grail?????

i called them twice before buying and got quick answers to my querries....
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on November 16, 2014, 12:57:21 pm
there is competition for Caleo....

it is called Sinop?, it is reasonably priced ($199 for wifi gateway and 2 thermostats, $69 for each additional thermostat) and it is available now.

you can buy online at sinopetech dot com or
it is also available at selected Rona stores (not online)

bought a kit yesterday at Rona, replaced 2 old thermostats in 20 minutes, activated in no time through the free web interface. straigth forward to connect and activate

nice and easy.... will try that for a while and if no issues, then gone all other old thermostats and welcome remote contol of my baseboard heaters at my cottage.....

is this the Holy Grail?????

i called them twice before buying and got quick answers to my querries....
Woah, great find. So, basically, it does the stuff we want and cheaper than Caleo. Just need to find the API to send command to the Wifi Gateway and we are done!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on November 16, 2014, 01:04:14 pm
yes that is it.

i talked to a guy at sinope tech on friday. he told me that the app development is ongoing....

would prefer to talk directly to the thermostat rather than through a website.... the guy said this is on their to do list....

the Neviweb access point is pretty simple to setup and use..
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on November 16, 2014, 06:51:48 pm
Wow  ;D
Great to know, the price is incredible..Like you say with a API, I buy that right now!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tsawyer on November 19, 2014, 02:45:13 pm
I am very exciting about this find.  I have been looking for something like this for a while and not sure how I never came across this particular product.   I have been leaning towards a 'dumb' system using a Verdant / Cadet V8-BB-7S, mainly because my desire is to have electric baseboards in a basement playroom turn on only when the room is occupied.  I figured the Cadet would do exactly this, with the sacrifice being no easy remote control without some extra hacking measures.   Now with this new find, I could perhaps use an existing zwave motion sensor in the room and (pending Vera integration) use these wifi/hub based thermostats instead.    I look forward to feedback from anyone that has a chance to experiment with these and see where we might be able to go with an API/plugin.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: curiousB on November 20, 2014, 10:23:17 pm
Coming to this party late but a couple comments.

You can use any WiFi (or ZWave) thermostat to control baseboard style heaters. You do not need a line voltage thermostat.

Just use one of these devices (24VAC transformer with integral 24VAC contactor).

     http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noLangue=2&noProduit=42

I've seen other thread where folks are suggesting using Vera to be the thermostat and no local control of the heater. This is a bad idea. If Vera ever got locked up the heater could be locked on 24x7. A leading cause of fires is electric heaters.

Always have a local control loop with a dedicated thermostat and then use Vera to modulate that.


Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on November 21, 2014, 07:25:36 am
CuriousB

Why would you use Aube relays and fish new wires to use any wifi thermostat when there is now a retrofit replacement for line voltage baseboard thermostats...

Simply remove the old thermostats and replace them with the Sinope wifi thermostats. Voila! no additional device to install in the baseboard or near the panel and no new wires to fish. the Aube relay alone is almost as expensive as the wifi thermostat.

Despite the web interface and the missing API, this remains the simplest and most cost effective solution out there. Cant get any easier..... :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on November 21, 2014, 12:57:26 pm
Coming to this party late but a couple comments.

You can use any WiFi (or ZWave) thermostat to control baseboard style heaters. You do not need a line voltage thermostat.

Just use one of these devices (24VAC transformer with integral 24VAC contactor).

     http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noLangue=2&noProduit=42

I've seen other thread where folks are suggesting using Vera to be the thermostat and no local control of the heater. This is a bad idea. If Vera ever got locked up the heater could be locked on 24x7. A leading cause of fires is electric heaters.

Always have a local control loop with a dedicated thermostat and then use Vera to modulate that.
Yes, this solution has been available for quite some time now. I agree that a local control is not an option but a safety requirement to avoid fire issue. It is even more a fire issue with the Aube Relay, because the baseboard is OFF or 100% ON until it reach the temperature, so it doesnt have pulse heating at all. This is bad and not efficient at all.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: curiousB on November 21, 2014, 04:40:27 pm
...It is even more a fire issue with the Aube Relay, because the baseboard is OFF or 100% ON until it reach the temperature, so it doesn't have pulse heating at all. This is bad and not efficient at all.

These baseboard devices are safety certified to operate with and on/off style thermostat controlling them. They go through a barrage of test and have failsafe aspects to them (high limit switch) for this very reason. To suggest a pulse or variable control is safer is just an opinion. You could easily argue it is less safe because now you have a thermostat element that generates heat (triac self heating).


As for heating efficiency kW in = BTU out, resistive heat by definition is 100% efficient.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: curiousB on November 21, 2014, 05:00:58 pm
Why would you use Aube relays and fish new wires to use any wifi thermostat when there is now a retrofit replacement for line voltage baseboard thermostats...

Simply remove the old thermostats and replace them with the Sinope wifi thermostats. Voila! no additional device to install in the baseboard or near the panel and no new wires to fish. the Aube relay alone is almost as expensive as the wifi thermostat.

The first time I am hearing of Sinope. Maybe that is a reason in and of itself. The more options the better I suppose. I am just saying a $30.95 Aube device  (http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Aube-RC840T-240-240v-Relay-w-Built-In-24V-Transformer?gclid=CjwKEAiA4rujBRDD7IG_wOPytXkSJACTMkgaFniDZT5L9J4b_2a0qziDv2WRoSmP-P9SygrL_aCCAhoCPbDw_wcB) opens you up to any WiFi (or ZWave) thermostat out there instead of a single fringe vendor out of Quebec. I am pretty sure Honeywell will be in the business for the next decade, not so sure about Sinope.

I have two Honeywell WiFi thermostats and love them (but I have Forced Air Gas Heat). The Honeywell  web service is no charge to Honeywell customers so I am not paying a monthly fee.

I agree at $120 for a Honeywell WiFi and $31 for the Aube is expensive for smaller rooms like bathrooms. The CT30 at $60 and the Aube at $31 gets you a $91 per room solution that integrates well with Vera.  (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Radio-Thermostat-CT30-Programmable-Communicating-Thermostat-w-Zwave-/331366186124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d26f6bc8c)

I wonder about temperature accuracy with a Triac based thermostat. I know lots of people make them (non wifi) but I have to wonder what that point heat source within the thermostat does to the accuracy of temp readings.



Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on November 21, 2014, 06:14:17 pm
curiousB

not everybody is lucky like you to have central heat. At my cottage i have 11 baseboard thermostats, one in each room on 3 levels. the best setup (least invasive) with aube relays is to install them near the pannel in the basement, connect them to 3 wifi thermostats, one on each level which requires to fish new 24v wires to the 3 thermostats.... not a simple proposition without some wall/ceiling dammage. i tried to figure out a path of least dammage... not simple. Then, once all is good, you need to make sure all doors are kept open on all levels, before leaving. not possible to adjust heat in rooms based on usage and other drawbacks of adjusting baseboard heat.

with the retrofit wifi thermostats all i need to do is replace the existing thermoststs, hook them up the wifi gateway, voila all fully integrated and wifi connected.

yes there is a risk the startup goes belly up... or actually get swallowed by a bigger fish like most start up do.  there is a competition on this front now. Sinope and Caleo. Sinope beat Caleo to the market, is already available, half the price and with a simpler web-based application. retrofit is so simple and cost effective. dont mind the risk.

i have been waiting for this for a long time for this...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: GT! on December 05, 2014, 10:23:18 pm
Looks like Reno Depot will be carrying them also.  Too bad no stock yet as they have 15% off Sat-Sun. 
http://www.renodepot.com/en/3-piece-starter-kit-of-programmable-wireless-thermostats-15595000

Probably in for a few of these for my ski condo.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on December 10, 2014, 07:36:52 am
Ordered the starter kit last weekend and received it within 2 business days. Installation was a charm (less than 30 minutes for the 2 thermostats including configuration). The only complaint I can think of is the mechanism opening the front panel to access the fixation screws. It's not straightforward to get it back in place.
i talked to a guy at sinope tech on friday. he told me that the app development is ongoing.....
Operation so far is flawless and the web interface is responsive enough. I don't think I would install a dedicated app if it existed. At the very least I can live without.
would prefer to talk directly to the thermostat rather than through a website.... the guy said this is on their to do list....
Right now it relies on a cloud service, even more than Caleo as the local user interface on the thermostat can only be used to control the set-point. It relies entirely on the cloud service for programming but there's indeed a web server listening on port 80 (but not 443) on the gateway. As soon as they come up with a firmware release for the gateway allowing us to bypass their server then I think I'm installing these all over the place. The only thing holding be back is the fact that the gateways talks to the thermostats over a proprietary protocol. If the gateway fails and the company goes out of business or that they stop supporting/manufacturing this line of products then all these thermostats are likely good for trash.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on December 14, 2014, 08:07:51 am
Connected 8 Sinope thermostats at my cottage ($195 for gateway and 2 thermostats kit at Rona, and 6 additional thermostats from Sinope at $65 each). Quite reasonable considering that Stelpro replacement programmable thermostats cost about that much.

Sinope delivered for free the thermostats and they arrived the next day!

less than 1 hour for the installation.
Linking to gateway was a breeze.
Wifi linking also a breeze.
Programming through neviweb slow but very straight forward.

Some nice features: the settings tells you the load connected to each thermostat and consumption statistics...

Day one of operation... Will see!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 17, 2014, 12:12:17 am
Just received a starter kit from sinope'. It was really easy to set-up.
Well see how they work.
Not very fond of a 2 wire thermostat for a 240v heater. I hear they are coming out  with a 4 wire soon.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: tsawyer on December 17, 2014, 10:00:35 am
If anyone can sort out a good way to tie these in with an occupancy sensor then please share.   My current thought is a generic zwave motion sensor sending to vera and a plugin making an http call from vera to the neviweb server to adjust the setpoint.   I know there is no published API yet, but maybe some sniffing and creativity will suffice.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldbug on December 17, 2014, 12:27:46 pm
i would call sinope tech and inquire about this.

before i pirchased the thermostats i did call twice to inquire about their product.
they were very friendly and i did talk to a tech person who indicsted that an api eas in their to do list...

cheers
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 17, 2014, 06:23:44 pm
I spoke to Sinope Tech and they claimed that there are going to release other products in the future. That is why the network can handle hundreds of devices. When they will who knows?
You can query the little black box from the home network , so a api would not be out of the question. I'll try to use putty when I get home.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: curiousB on December 18, 2014, 10:30:21 am
Not very fond of a 2 wire thermostat for a 240v heater. I hear they are coming out  with a 4 wire soon.

Are you referring to 4 wire as in 240VAC Lines? Or 4 wire as in thermostat R, C, W, G?


Why? There is no need to switch both legs of the 240VAC for NEC compliance. You need a disconnect (for maintenance), but the breaker can often be considered the disconnect for a circuit unless it is too far away.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 18, 2014, 12:59:25 pm
Not fond of 2 wire line voltage 240 volt thermostats. You cannot use the thermostat as a disconnect as there is no way to properly turn off power to the heater other than the breaker for servicing.
In order to be code compliant you need to be able to disconnect All power to the heater within sight. If not you can install a breaker lockout, but how many will use that. I prefer a two pole thermostat for 240v with a positive off for servicing. That way you can safely seasonally clean the heater.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 18, 2014, 01:12:16 pm
Oh it appears that the Sinope' thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology similar to Zwave and Zigbee . Other product types may be on the horizon from sinope.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on December 19, 2014, 06:35:03 am
Oh it appears that the Sinope' thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.
Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip's 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en-us/technology/personalareanetworks/technology/home.html) (not WiMi) doesn't specify on one end the RF layer (and it's typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn't look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 19, 2014, 10:54:30 am
Oh it appears that the Sinope' thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.
Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip's 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en-us/technology/personalareanetworks/technology/home.html) (not WiMi) doesn't specify on one end the RF layer (and it's typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn't look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.

Sorry of the MiWi WiMi typo. I beg to differ about the ability for Vera to communicate with this system -Not Directly with the thermostat or other devices of course but through the little black box.  Not all cross platform systems do it directly.  It really makes no difference in how these days. All Vera needs to do is poll the web interface locally or via the web. Locally would be better. Local communications are not blocked by the internal web server. So it is just a matter as to knowing what to query.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on December 19, 2014, 07:53:48 pm
Oh it appears that the Sinope' thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.
Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip's 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en-us/technology/personalareanetworks/technology/home.html) (not WiMi) doesn't specify on one end the RF layer (and it's typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn't look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.
Sorry of the MiWi WiMi typo. I beg to differ about the ability for Vera to communicate with this system -Not Directly with the thermostat or other devices of course but through the little black box.  Not all cross platform systems do it directly.  It really makes no difference in how these days. All Vera needs to do is poll the web interface locally or via the web. Locally would be better. Local communications are not blocked by the internal web server. So it is just a matter as to knowing what to query.
Developing a Vera plugin interfacing the cloud service and eventually the gateway (little black box) is certainly possible and even straightforward but then the thermostat-gateway communication protocol is irrelevant. My main concern is if the gateway fails a few years from now and that this line of products stops being manufactured what can I do with all the thermostats I purchased if they can only be programmed through such gateway over a proprietary protocol.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: curiousB on December 21, 2014, 07:41:33 pm
Not fond of 2 wire line voltage 240 volt thermostats. You cannot use the thermostat as a disconnect as there is no way to properly turn off power to the heater other than the breaker for servicing.
In order to be code compliant you need to be able to disconnect All power to the heater within sight. If not you can install a breaker lockout, but how many will use that. I prefer a two pole thermostat for 240v with a positive off for servicing. That way you can safely seasonally clean the heater.

To each his own. If I have a single pole thermostat that meets my needs I'd forgo the second pole as a disconnect as it isn't required. For once a year cleaning (if even that) its not too taxing to flip the breaker off for 15 minutes. Makes for a much less crowded junction box as well.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 22, 2014, 10:58:22 am
Some type of Disco is REQUIRED. If not in sight of the heater a breaker lock-out device is required!
So yes and a matter of where.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: GT! on December 23, 2014, 08:05:00 pm
Some type of Disco is REQUIRED. If not in sight of the heater a breaker lock-out device is required!
So yes and a matter of where.

Yes, of course a disconnect is required but what is wrong with using the breaker?  Personally I'd never trust the thermostat as a disconnect anyway.  I use the breaker to turn off power to all my other electrical circuits I don't see why it wouldn't be good enough for baseboard heaters.

-GT
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 23, 2014, 08:35:54 pm
Yes the breaker is fine. Although not usually within sight of the heater. So a lock-out device is acceptable at the breaker.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: destinet on January 05, 2015, 08:21:20 pm
Any news on the sinope thermostat? Anyone was able to link them with Vera?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on January 11, 2015, 06:33:42 pm
An answer from Vera today about opening their thermostat to Vera...

Bonjour M. XXXX,

Merci pour l'int?r?t que vous portez ? nos produits.

Pour l'instant cette fonctionnalit? n'est pas disponible mais nous sommes pr?sentement ? l??tude pour ouvrir la plateforme ? travers un API sur notre serveur.  Cependant, nous ne pr?voyons pas ouvrir cette porte avant l?automne 2015.  Aimeriez-vous ?tre avis? lorsque cet API sera disponible?

Merci

Thank you for your interest

For now this functionality is not available but we are presently studying a way to open the platform threw API on our server. We don't think that we can open that door before the autumn of 2015. Would you like us to inform you when it would be available?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on January 11, 2015, 06:47:43 pm
An answer from Vera today about opening their thermostat to Vera...

Bonjour M. XXXX,

Merci pour l'int?r?t que vous portez ? nos produits.

Pour l'instant cette fonctionnalite n'est pas disponible mais nous sommes presentement a l'etude pour ouvrir la plateforme a travers un API sur notre serveur.  Cependant, nous ne prevoyons pas ouvrir cette porte avant l'automne 2015.  Aimeriez-vous etre avise lorsque cet API sera disponible?

Merci

Thank you for your interest

For now this functionality is not available but we are presently studying a way to open the platform threw API on our server. We don't think that we can open that door before the autumn of 2015. Would you like us to inform you when it would be available?
I gave it a try with libcurl, managed to authenticate but got lost through layers and layers of javascript and gave up but I pretty sure there's already a json-based web service API. It's probably straightforward to reverse engineer that API if you can sniff the HTTPS content (not encrypted) but I cannot find a browser/plugin allowing to do so. On my side I got a similar answer regarding the possibility to bypass their sever.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: destinet on January 11, 2015, 06:57:29 pm
I already reversed onstar Web app to start car maybe I will give  try just expensive if it doesn't work and I really don't want something I can't add to the vera. Will check
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on January 18, 2015, 10:46:29 am
I'm probably getting a little off-topic but among the Sinope thermostats owners on this forum anybody experienced with off and changing baseboard power estimation readings? I installed these thermostats in 2 rooms both with 60" baseboards (which I'm assuming are 1250W). One is changing between 1250W and 1750W while the other will even go up to 2000W sometimes.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on January 18, 2015, 10:35:49 pm
I have one set up with as a demo and it is stable at 1250 w as it should.
If you have a loose connection or if serious voltage fluctuation this could be the cause.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Ninja robot from space on January 19, 2015, 06:41:41 am
I have one set up with as a demo and it is stable at 1250 w as it should.
If you have a loose connection or if serious voltage fluctuation this could be the cause.
I fixed a lot of loose connections when I moved in, that seems possible but I would expect the estimated power to do down unless the thermostat is using the maximum value of a very short integration period. I didn't notice any lighting fluctuation so I'm pretty confident that the voltage provided by my utility is ok. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on April 09, 2015, 11:19:37 am
Hi everyone,
My name is Valerie, Communication and Marketing Advisor for Sinope Technologies. I would first like to thank everyone who has bought our products. You have many good things to say about our thermostats and we appreciate your support. I will now address some issues that have arisen through this chat room.

We launched our first Web thermostat last October. We are a young company on paper, but know that our expert employees have been working in electronic control products for the past 20 years. Also, we already have more than a million thermostats sold and installed to date. So no need to be worried, we are here to stay!

Innovation is at the heart of our work which allows our products to benefit from unrivaled energy efficiency and meet current and future needs of our consumers. We are currently working on an API that will allow interaction with other platforms. We expect to have the API by the end of the year. We also have many more products coming soon which should please many of you. If you would like to be notified when the API or future products will be available, please send us an email at info@sinopetech.com to be added to our distribution list.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact us by email at support@sinopetech.com. Our number 1 goal is to please and keep customers.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: GT! on April 10, 2015, 01:04:39 pm
Thanks for posting Valerie/Sinope!

I installed 5 Sinope thermostats last week and am very happy with them.  They seem to be high quality and a pretty polished solution considering they've only been available for a few months.  Very easy to setup and use and I love having the analytics to show consumption.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: destinet on April 10, 2015, 02:34:18 pm
Hi everyone,
My name is Valerie, Communication and Marketing Advisor for Sinope Technologies. I would first like to thank everyone who has bought our products. You have many good things to say about our thermostats and we appreciate your support. I will now address some issues that have arisen through this chat room.

We launched our first Web thermostat last October. We are a young company on paper, but know that our expert employees have been working in electronic control products for the past 20 years. Also, we already have more than a million thermostats sold and installed to date. So no need to be worried, we are here to stay!

Innovation is at the heart of our work which allows our products to benefit from unrivaled energy efficiency and meet current and future needs of our consumers. We are currently working on an API that will allow interaction with other platforms. We expect to have the API by the end of the year. We also have many more products coming soon which should please many of you. If you would like to be notified when the API or future products will be available, please send us an email at info@sinopetech.com to be added to our distribution list.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact us by email at support@sinopetech.com. Our number 1 goal is to please and keep customers.

thanks valerie! Looking forward to have an apps in the vera!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on June 03, 2015, 07:52:30 am
Any development from Sinope about your plugins... wish to know when your apps will be out....
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on August 08, 2015, 04:47:20 pm
anybody know anything about API for Sinope?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: 838joel on August 23, 2015, 07:45:36 pm
Just sent an email and waiting for their reply. Will keep you posted!
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on September 11, 2015, 04:52:31 pm
Just waiting for the API to see if I will buy more of their thermostats... I've got 6 of them... so far so good.. it would be a lot better if we could get them working with Vera... the winter is coming here...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: lolakr on September 11, 2015, 05:02:15 pm
Here is a response I got from them last week...

We are curently working on the development of an API that will be offered to some integrators.  This API will offer the possibility to communicate with other platforms. This API should be available by the end of this year.

After the API, we will be working on a local version that allow consumers to access their thermostat locally without going through the neviweb? Website. 

Yes, you may change the temperature format to Fahrenheit instead of Celsius.

 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on October 01, 2015, 10:13:10 pm
Looking forward to seeing something soon I hope... Any news on the 4000w ?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: TannFrost on October 05, 2015, 05:14:47 am
I am working on a automatic temprature control project and am interested in a basic non-programmable Zwave thermostat. I want to know if it is compatible with the smart things? I want to make it reliable,efficient and economic. I am controlling the whole using my MCU.
Can you please give me more details about this sensor. ?

assembling pcb (http://www.7pcb.ca/PCB-Assembly-services/)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on October 05, 2015, 09:35:46 am
Hi, My name is Valerie from Sinope. As previously mentioned we are working very hard to have the API by the end of this year. I will post something here as soon as it is available. You can also register to our newsletter (go to sinopetech.com to do so) to be kept informed on our new products and developments. As for the question about the 4000W I am happy to announce that it is now available. If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to contact us at info@sinopetech.com. We will be happy to answer them. Once again, thank you very much to you all for your interest.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on October 17, 2015, 10:48:58 am
H?... Val?rie... sut wish to see it soon... it's getting cold here in Canada... and you will be the first one on the line to offer a 240V thermostat that you can control with scene on Vera or any other Hub... I am just looking forward to work with it, I have already 8 of them and just wish to control them with a script...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on November 02, 2015, 02:00:09 pm
Hi, my name is Valerie from Sinope. Following many questions we have received lately, I want to make sure there is no confusion regarding our upcoming API. We are currently working on the development of an API that will be offered to some integrators. This API should be available in a few weeks. If you have any more questions, please contact us at info@sinopetech.com.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on November 03, 2015, 12:57:17 am
Hi everyone,
My name is Valerie, Communication and Marketing Advisor for Sinope Technologies. I would first like to thank everyone who has bought our products. You have many good things to say about our thermostats and we appreciate your support. I will now address some issues that have arisen through this chat room.

We launched our first Web thermostat last October. We are a young company on paper, but know that our expert employees have been working in electronic control products for the past 20 years. Also, we already have more than a million thermostats sold and installed to date. So no need to be worried, we are here to stay!

Innovation is at the heart of our work which allows our products to benefit from unrivaled energy efficiency and meet current and future needs of our consumers. We are currently working on an API that will allow interaction with other platforms. We expect to have the API by the end of the year. We also have many more products coming soon which should please many of you. If you would like to be notified when the API or future products will be available, please send us an email at info@sinopetech.com to be added to our distribution list.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact us by email at support@sinopetech.com. Our number 1 goal is to please and keep customers.

Hi, my name is Valerie from Sinope. Following many questions we have received lately, I want to make sure there is no confusion regarding our upcoming API. We are currently working on the development of an API that will be offered to some integrators. This API should be available in a few weeks. We will then be working on a second API which will offer the possibility to communicate with other platforms such has VERA. This second API does not have a release date yet. If you have any more questions, please contact us at info@sinopetech.com.


It is quit funny that you change the scenario... we were suppose to have an API that allow interaction with other platform before the end of the year what bring us to invest a lot of money because of that scenario... 2 HUBS and 14 thermostats.... Now it is not exactly what you mean 7 months later .... I was hoping to have an API before the end the year and I plan the management of my heating system in consideration of your forecast.... Would you please tell me what I gonna do now with my 1000$ investment..... and tell me what you mean by an API that will be offered to some integrators...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on November 03, 2015, 04:06:35 pm
As mentioned last April, an API will be available to some integrators (for platforms such as Control4) in a few weeks. These things take time and we are doing everything in our power to have it available as soon as possible. If the situation changes we will make sure to keep you informed by giving updates on this forum. Please be advised that not all features of the neviweb? platform such as consumption graphics will automatically be available through other platforms. Please do not hesitate to contact us by phone at 1 855 741 7701 we will be happy to answer all your questions if you require further information. Customer satisfaction is very important to us and we will make sure to keep you informed on any new developments. Sincerely
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on November 03, 2015, 04:20:49 pm
I've talk to you already by phone... thank you to make it clear to us... at least I know now that I will be able to connect to Vera before the end of the year threw a patch...  :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on November 06, 2015, 11:57:33 am
As mentioned last April, an API will be available to some integrators (for platforms such as Control4) in a few weeks. These things take time and we are doing everything in our power to have it available as soon as possible. If the situation changes we will make sure to keep you informed by giving updates on this forum. Please be advised that not all features of the neviweb? platform such as consumption graphics will automatically be available through other platforms. Please do not hesitate to contact us by phone at 1 855 741 7701 we will be happy to answer all your questions if you require further information. Customer satisfaction is very important to us and we will make sure to keep you informed on any new developments. Sincerely

Control 4. are you kidding me.
One of the most expensive and exclusive platforms on the market. and only sold through certified vendors. Very few people own or want a control4.
Many want to control your thermostats with their simple HA system. Vera, Smart things, .....
Who else are you working with for API , I hope you include Vera and a plugin for it by the end of the year. This community would greatly appreciate it.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on November 11, 2015, 08:24:01 am
Hi, do not worry, we are not approaching only one integrator. As soon as we can announce more, we will. In the meantime, you can always register on our Facebook page or our newsletter to be kept informed of new developments. Have a good day and thank you for your interest.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on November 12, 2015, 01:27:22 am
Hi, do not worry, we are not approaching only one integrator. As soon as we can announce more, we will. In the meantime, you can always register on our Facebook page or our newsletter to be kept informed of new developments. Have a good day and thank you for your interest.

That does not instill much confidence.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on November 16, 2015, 10:09:06 pm
So who are these other integrators sinope?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on November 17, 2015, 08:50:12 am
Hi, as previously mentionned, as soon as we are able to announce any names, we will. In the meantime, if you have more questions concerning the API, do not hesitate to contact us at info@sinopetech.com. Thank you and have a good day.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: alien8er on December 21, 2015, 10:56:09 pm
Almost the end of the year! :)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on December 31, 2015, 11:41:10 pm
Don't hold your breath with bleeding edge technology.
You'll die first
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 12, 2016, 06:33:34 pm
Ok it 2016, what do they have for us?  I have a lot of them that I would like to control using my HA
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: zmistro on January 12, 2016, 08:24:15 pm
nothing.
It would be great if they gave us something.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on January 13, 2016, 04:03:41 pm
Hi, I am happy to report that the API for Sinope Technologies is now available for authorized professional integrators. The first automation system to be compatible with our platform is Control4. We are currently working to make neviweb compatible with many more systems. Consult the support section of our website regularly since it is where we will add new systems as soon as they are confirmed. Best regards
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on January 13, 2016, 04:09:31 pm
What would be the next move for the Vera's users..?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on January 13, 2016, 04:30:35 pm
Hi, we do not have a date for now for Vera but as soon as we have more information, it will be added to the support section of our website. Thank you
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 22, 2016, 03:15:34 pm
Hi Valerie, Why would you not offer the API for some of the users on this site?  We have people that have great experience and can eat that better than your own team.  Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: destinet on January 22, 2016, 03:42:03 pm
Hi Valerie, Why would you not offer the API for some of the users on this site?  We have people that have great experience and can eat that better than your own team.  Just my two cents.

I agree, i asked to have access and said no:(
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: sinope on January 26, 2016, 08:43:49 am
Hi, for now the API  is only available to professional integrators. We will make sure to keep you all posted if we decide to make it available at a larger scale. Best regards
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 26, 2016, 08:47:13 am
Hi Valerie,

I wonder why you would not use the expertise of some excellent developers on this forum.  Some of the things this group have been amazing.

You should reconsider.

T
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: destinet on January 26, 2016, 09:01:35 am
Bah just wait a little and we should have planty of option. This is another company working a line voltage thermostat
http://casaconnect.com/
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Plecebo on January 27, 2016, 02:59:29 pm
+1 for the need for a solution to this issue.

Someone please figure out this problem, not all homes have low voltage thermostats, not even all new homes (mine is <6 years old they just aren't that common in the area).
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 27, 2016, 03:57:33 pm
I totally agree I built last year and all my neighbors have line voltage.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: PromptCritical on January 29, 2016, 05:39:30 pm
Oh yeah: http://www.stelpro.com/en-CA/4000-w-electronic-thermostat-smart-home
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldriver on January 29, 2016, 07:42:24 pm
Oh yeah: http://www.stelpro.com/en-CA/4000-w-electronic-thermostat-smart-home

finaly, a good sulution available at a reasonable price, too bad, Sinope and totalcontrol did not provide a zwave interface before !
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on January 29, 2016, 10:12:24 pm
Wow, finally, someone understand!

Simply Zwave line voltage thermostat! at good price!

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 29, 2016, 11:00:12 pm
Right on, only thing I have to get the sinope ones out and I have 24...   To late for me but a wake up for them..
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldriver on February 01, 2016, 09:42:19 pm
Contacted the Stelpro tody, unfortunatly, the STZW402 are not available yet, they don't have a definitive release date but I order 12 to my distributor (Lumen in Quebec) who confirmed to me that I should have them in 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldriver on February 12, 2016, 04:43:38 pm
Just received 4 out of 8 orderd STZW402, I actually installed 1 and associated it with VeraEdge as a generic Z-wave device since Vera does not have a config for this yet. The device was added as a generic thermostat with heat\cold\fan options

Adding the device was flawless, straight forward now I'm struggling around to find out how to send the outside temperature to the T-stat.

more details to come...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: kyb2012 on February 20, 2016, 01:40:37 pm
The Stelpro unit looks like a good unit at a good price.  I have central heat and air, so never had to think about getting a line voltage thermostat.
Seems a little odd to me that just about every single option for a "smart" (connected) line voltage thermostat comes from companies based in Quebec, Canada.
I saw in a previous post that Quebec Hydro offers some rebates, but one would still think that some companies outside of Quebec would try to fill the needs as well. (Just an observation.  Not like X-files or anything.)
http://cankev.blogspot.ca
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mitnick29 on February 24, 2016, 03:31:40 pm
Aartech canada have it in stock 89.99$
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldriver on February 24, 2016, 09:17:25 pm
Micasaverde Told me they were working to include all device options and it should be available in a futur update
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: PromptCritical on March 01, 2016, 03:43:17 pm
Micasaverde Told me they were working to include all device options and it should be available in a futur update

Maybe I'm just a Z-Wave noob here, but I can't seem to grasp why this should require a system update.  It's a thermostat.  It has temperatures and modes.  Just like any other thermostat.  The interface to Vera should be identical, minus non-applicable things you would find on a home system like cooling and blower.  My home thermostat is just for heat, so I simply ignore the cooling stuff in the interface that doesn't apply.  A baseboard thermostat is stupid simple.  You can't make it less complicated.  In my thinking the only reason Vera should need to update is to include devices that are more complicated, not less. ::)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Inzax on March 01, 2016, 05:38:59 pm
Micasaverde Told me they were working to include all device options and it should be available in a futur update

Maybe I'm just a Z-Wave noob here, but I can't seem to grasp why this should require a system update.  It's a thermostat.  It has temperatures and modes.  Just like any other thermostat.  The interface to Vera should be identical, minus non-applicable things you would find on a home system like cooling and blower.  My home thermostat is just for heat, so I simply ignore the cooling stuff in the interface that doesn't apply.  A baseboard thermostat is stupid simple.  You can't make it less complicated.  In my thinking the only reason Vera should need to update is to include devices that are more complicated, not less. ::)

It can be added as a generic thermo.  Not sure what unique capabilities this thermo brings to the table.  I am just happy there is a viable option for electric heat.  I almost jumped on the Sinope therms however, will probably go with Stelpro once I save up for 6 of them (how many I need).
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on March 01, 2016, 09:29:31 pm
Well still no luck on the line voltage  see below


We are currently working on integrating our Web programmable devices to
different automation systems. Control4 and RTI are now available but others
are coming. As soon as another platform is available, it will be announced
on our API page http://www.sinopetech.com/en/support/#api and we will post
something on Facebook.

We are currently looking at the possibility of an app. Neviweb is using a
Website optimized for mobile devices so our platform may be used by all
users (iOS, Android, Windows, .). If you would like to be informed if we
launch an app, please let me know and I will add your e-mail to our
newsletter's mailing list. You can also follow us on Facebook.

Thank you and have a good day.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Inzax on March 02, 2016, 07:13:23 am
Well still no luck on the line voltage  see below

I was willing to give them a try outside of vera.  I do the same thing with Netatmo.  I like the Netatmo interface better.  I figured once they got things done I could roll the therms over to vera.  No need to wait now.  Thanks for posting the Sinope info.  I was curious where they were at on making things compatible.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: goldriver on March 04, 2016, 04:34:45 pm
Micasaverde Told me they were working to include all device options and it should be available in a futur update

Maybe I'm just a Z-Wave noob here, but I can't seem to grasp why this should require a system update.  It's a thermostat.  It has temperatures and modes.  Just like any other thermostat.  The interface to Vera should be identical, minus non-applicable things you would find on a home system like cooling and blower.  My home thermostat is just for heat, so I simply ignore the cooling stuff in the interface that doesn't apply.  A baseboard thermostat is stupid simple.  You can't make it less complicated.  In my thinking the only reason Vera should need to update is to include devices that are more complicated, not less. ::)

It can be added as a generic thermo.  Not sure what unique capabilities this thermo brings to the table.  I am just happy there is a viable option for electric heat.  I almost jumped on the Sinope therms however, will probably go with Stelpro once I save up for 6 of them (how many I need).

You are right, the generic thermostat interface is usable BUT has an Auto and cool button that are not usable on baseboard thermostat. There is also an option on the STZ402 where you can send the outside temperature from the controler to all thermostat which, at this time cannot be done with the actual interface.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on March 18, 2016, 11:47:36 pm
Do you know if anybody is working to get an API working on Vera with the Sinop?'s thermostats.... so far they have APIS working with... Control4, RTI and SmarThings... I bought 10 of them in 2015 because Sinop? was telling there was going to be an API before the end of 2015..... I even bought the Vera PLUS in the hope of having an API working.... SO far... nothing... no news... Sinop?... would you please get it working for them who believed you at the beginning..  :-[
 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on March 25, 2016, 04:26:42 pm
Not to my knowledge, we still wait and await and yes wait a little more.  Considering they said by late year and that was late last year this is not very good.  I have 24 and would not have purchased them, I would have gone with something else.  All the newiweb.com does is allow you to schedule.  If connected to Vera we could control based on scenes what a benefit. 

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on March 27, 2016, 08:16:21 pm
Hi everyone,
My name is Valerie, Communication and Marketing Advisor for Sinope Technologies. I would first like to thank everyone who has bought our products. You have many good things to say about our thermostats and we appreciate your support. I will now address some issues that have arisen through this chat room.

We launched our first Web thermostat last October. We are a young company on paper, but know that our expert employees have been working in electronic control products for the past 20 years. Also, we already have more than a million thermostats sold and installed to date. So no need to be worried, we are here to stay!

Innovation is at the heart of our work which allows our products to benefit from unrivaled energy efficiency and meet current and future needs of our consumers. We are currently working on an API that will allow interaction with other platforms. We expect to have the API by the end of the year. We also have many more products coming soon which should please many of you. If you would like to be notified when the API or future products will be available, please send us an email at info@sinopetech.com to be added to our distribution list.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact us by email at support@sinopetech.com. Our number 1 goal is to please and keep customers.


April 2015 - we had this message from Sinope... so I decided to buy all my thermostats from them because I knew directly from them that we were going to have an API... If I had knew before I would had never bought them... Just hope they will do something before the end of the decade...  :P
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on March 27, 2016, 08:27:21 pm
Agreed
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: peterluc8080 on March 30, 2016, 07:11:29 pm
https://github.com/sinopetechnologies/smartThings/blob/master/driver_device_thermostat.groovy

The code is available on this page, just need to take it and create the same thing for a plugin in Vera. Shouldnt be that hard.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on March 30, 2016, 09:25:44 pm
https://github.com/sinopetechnologies/smartThings/blob/master/driver_device_thermostat.groovy

The code is available on this page, just need to take it and create the same thing for a plugin in Vera. Shouldnt be that hard.

Dear Valerie... Communication and Marketing Advisor for Sinope Technologies.... can you please reply to this...?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on April 03, 2016, 10:47:11 am
Actually the API for smart thing, control4 and Rti are all on the sinope website, I have zero experience developing a plugin.  Is it just reassigning values to one of the other plugins on the Vera system?  Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.   
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on April 04, 2016, 06:53:07 pm
Email from our friends at Sinope....

Our API is available and the compatibility with Vera will be coming in the next months.
 
I have added your email to our list of clients who wish to be informed when our products are compatible with Vera.
 
If you need more information, do not hesitate to contact me.
 
Thank you for your patience and have a good day,
 
Vanessa P?pin
Commis service ? la client?le / Customer Service agent
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on May 26, 2016, 04:40:01 pm
WOW

I am sorry for the longer response time.
 
After conducting our research, it has been decided that the project of compatibility with Vera was going to be on hold.
 
For future updates, I invite you to keep an eye on our Facebook page.
 
If you need more information, do not hesitate to contact me.
 
Thank you and have a good day
T: 450.741.7700
F: 450.741.7710
Sinop? Technologies I
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on May 27, 2016, 08:52:48 am
OK, I have zero knowledge of plug-ins and etc. However anyone that has the knowledge and would like to accept the challenge. 
If you know a forum member that has the ability to write the plugin, you can tell him/her to contact us. We will verify his/her credentials and if they qualify, we could send them the API so they write the said plugin.
 
If you need more information, do not hesitate to contact me.
 
Thank you and have a good day,
 
Vanessa P?pin
Agente de support technique / Technical support agent
vanessa.pepin@sinopetech.com
T: 450.741.7700 poste 5107
F: 450.741.7710
Sinop? Technologies Inc.
705 Avenue Montrichard,

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on May 27, 2016, 09:54:48 pm
Are you telling us that there are going to put a hold on the API after promising for two years that they were going to produce it..... Sinope have done an API for Control 4, RTI and Smarthing.... Can somebody from Vera or Sinope tell us why it is so hard to get the Sinope thermostats working with Vera platform. Is there a real intention from Sinope to get it working with Vera?
I already bought 12 of their thermostats in the perspective they were going to produce an API for Vera... and after many promises... we still at the same place. Please Sinope don't write to us anymore... " if we have any question... we just need to contact you..."
I have done it many times already and we still nowhere about of having an API... PLEASE REPORT HERE
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on May 28, 2016, 09:40:50 am
Sorry friend, that was the official word from sinope, the project is on hold.  I agree with you as I have ove 20 figured it would not take this long.   

However, the major change with sinope was they will agree to release the API to a programmer on the forum if they want to write a plugin.  I will agree to pay for a download if it comes to that.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on May 28, 2016, 12:11:39 pm
Sorry friend, that was the official word from sinope, the project is on hold.  I agree with you as I have ove 20 figured it would not take this long.   

However, the major change with sinope was they will agree to release the API to a programmer on the forum if they want to write a plugin.  I will agree to pay for a download if it comes to that.

You just look on the previous posts how many times they promise an API in a short time.... I can not believe they can not support us  anymore... I would say to anyone on this platform not to buy Sinope anymore until they can support an API here as well as they did with the other platform...  http://www.sinopetech.com/en/support/#api (http://www.sinopetech.com/en/support/#api)
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: EvilMonkey on June 06, 2016, 04:09:50 pm
Being new to the scene here, I am just catching myself up on what is possible for my installation...

My options are:

1) Caleo which is controlled over wifi, but can be used with Vera
2) Stelpro, which is controlled over z wave, but can be used with Vera if set up as a generic zwave device
3) Use an Aube RC840T-240 Heating Relay with Built-in 24 V Transformer and connect to a Nest

Have I missed anything? Sinoptech seems to have been a flop.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on June 06, 2016, 07:06:10 pm
Thanks EM, but we already have the sinope tech units and need someone to write an API
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: jdawson on August 03, 2016, 05:18:02 pm
Looks like the Sinope suff is working with smart things.
https://community.smartthings.com/t/sinope-electric-thermostats/41217/10

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on August 31, 2016, 11:43:45 am
Yes, it is working with smart thing and has Ben for a year.  They have promised the API to any user that can program a plugin.  My programming days are long done.

I ASK ANYONE THAT HAS DEVELOPED A PLUGIN IN THE PAST TO LOOK AT THIS I AND MANY MORE WOULD BE HAPPY TO PURCHASE THE PLUGIN.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: alien8er on October 01, 2016, 11:36:38 am
Winter is coming.  Any updates?  Is the API published or do we have to request it from them? 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: JohnRob on October 01, 2016, 07:53:51 pm
I'm curious how temperature limits are handled, if at all.   I'm very interested in programmable thermostats where I could modify the setting based on outside temperature, time of year etc.  However I am very uncomfortable allowing Vera (or any other controller) full authority of the temperature setting.

To be comfortable I would need hard limits programmed into the thermostat limiting the authority of the remote command.  This could be accomplished with some sort of front panel programming or perhaps a remote setup enabled/disabled by a jumper etc.

JohnRob

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: mysa on December 22, 2016, 10:03:28 am
Hello!

I have been monitoring this thread for some time now and I am really excited to share a new product my company has been working on.

Yes, it is a Wi-Fi based thermostat for electric baseboard heaters and it will be compatible with Vera.

I have personally lived with all three existing solutions (Sinope, Casa, and Stelpro) over the last 6-12 months and neither of them "hit it out of the park".

Mysa (www.getmysa.com) is really going to leapfrog the competition and finally give customers a high voltage smart thermostat that they have been looking for.

We are still about 9 months from being able to ship but I thought I'd post here to let people know that there is another solution in the works and it WILL work with VERA on day one. Not an empty promise.

Please take a look at our website to see more and we will be adding detailed information very soon!

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: picomo on January 10, 2017, 02:22:19 pm
Hi,

i have been waiting for some time for something and when I saw mysa today, it looked very promising. I went ahead and pre-ordered 3. What also convinced me was the rapid response time from Joshua when I asked him about integration with vera, alexa, siri (homekit)...
here is a referral link http://mysa.refr.cc/joselsiles (http://mysa.refr.cc/joselsiles), if you purchase, I get $10 and so do you :)

Once i receive them in October 2017, I will update this thread with my findings.

Luis


Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: spikyfugu on January 11, 2017, 11:14:49 pm
I have bought the Sinope line-thermostat in late 2014 when it first came out in hopes that an API will be delivered as a promise to developers.  I work in software and can most likely write a working module for integration with Vera.

I will share my outmost disappointment about the product:


Sinope, I hope you are reading this, because you have lost me as a current and future customer (possibly other customers because of your company practices).  For those of your considering these Sinope thermostats, beware you will be stuck in a closed platform.  If your thermostat won't work, you can't service it yourself or upgrade any of the software without costing you shipping both ways.  Overall, I am very very disappointed with the development over the past 2 years and will be replacing these with open standard Stelpro Z-wave line-voltage thermostats instead.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Newzwaver on January 24, 2017, 07:12:31 pm
Hi

I have the API and started a plugin if you are interested in working on it I would love the help and the plugin.

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on January 25, 2017, 11:41:22 am
Welcome on board .... I have already denounced this situation several times for 2 years ... and Sinop? despite his promises has never delivered. I bought more than 12 thermostats with them thinking they would live up to their promises ... unfortunately they never respected their commitment. I know very well that he will not deliver the goods after spending more than $ 1100 with them hoping that I could control my heating by integrating programs with Vera .... After many promises ... I advise not buying their products by considering their false promises.

I have bought the Sinope line-thermostat in late 2014 when it first came out in hopes that an API will be delivered as a promise to developers.  I work in software and can most likely write a working module for integration with Vera.

I will share my outmost disappointment about the product:

  • The promised API (a local API not the neviweb cloud api, but a direct calls to the RF gateway will be published for anyone interested).  Obviously that is a lie to get people on board to buy their product.
  • The thermostats were sold as having "Standby/Manual/Auto" operation modes. Clearly labelled on the box and instruction manual.  But 4 of early units I got does not have the Standby mode.  I want the Standby mode to be set on in the summer months. After contacting supports, this can only be done by sending the units back and have the units reflashed with latest firmware.  Also, support insisted that I have the bear all the shipping cost because of their f-up's with not providing the standby mode to begin with.  Even if they paid for shipping, it is a hassle detaching all the units from the wall and send it back for reflashing.  It's a cloud product, why can't you upgrade through the cloud?
  • The outside temperature setting used to work but has been broken ever since a year ago. but has yet to work since but new firmware is supposed to fix it. Again, these thermostats cannot be updated through the web and hence, i need to send in all 8 of my thermostats for service assuming all the shipping costs and all the inconvenience.
  • Developers.  Let me tells you why the likes of Apple and Google are successful.  It's because of developers and their platform.  Your smart thermostat is a great platform to build on but unfortunately, you have closed it off for anyone to do anything cool with it.  I don't doubt you have smart people working for you but there are great developers out there that will push the limit and build something even your product managers will never ever imagine as use cases.  So why why why are you putting yourself in such a bad position for your business.  You can be selling a lot of hardware here and make very good money here.  It has proven you guys are not a software company.  I poked around your gateway web code and neviweb interface web code, and it shows me your software is "meh..." engineering level.

Sinope, I hope you are reading this, because you have lost me as a current and future customer (possibly other customers because of your company practices).  For those of your considering these Sinope thermostats, beware you will be stuck in a closed platform.  If your thermostat won't work, you can't service it yourself or upgrade any of the software without costing you shipping both ways.  Overall, I am very very disappointed with the development over the past 2 years and will be replacing these with open standard Stelpro Z-wave line-voltage thermostats instead.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: dreamcryer on January 25, 2017, 05:02:01 pm
I have been using transformer-relay + Nest with my line-voltage baseboard heater for couple years. Working like a charm.

http://www.smarthome.com/aube-rc840t-240-on-off-switching-electric-heating-relay-with-built-in-24-v-transformer.html (http://www.smarthome.com/aube-rc840t-240-on-off-switching-electric-heating-relay-with-built-in-24-v-transformer.html)
Amazon also has it.
It seems HomeDepot sells similar product:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cadet-5-KW-240-Volt-to-24-Volt-1-Circuit-Electric-Heating-Relay-with-Integral-Transformer-R841C1227/202849702 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cadet-5-KW-240-Volt-to-24-Volt-1-Circuit-Electric-Heating-Relay-with-Integral-Transformer-R841C1227/202849702)

Pros:Works with Nest and my baseboard heater.
Cons:In order to have this module hidden, you likely need to cut a hole in your drywall to put it in. Licensed electrician is recommended just to be safe.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on January 27, 2017, 07:33:58 am
Maybe you're right for tehnology ... but if you compare the price ... $ 375 for the NEST and $ 75 for the Sinope ... it has a huge difference ... The problem is that I bought this brand because they promised to have an API running with Vera that was going to be available by the end of 2015 .... so far.....Bla bla bla ... Just wish that somebody from Sinope will answer to that...

"Temperature Monitoring & HVAC Control / Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Message by sinope on October 05, 2015, 05:35:46 am
Hi, My name is Valerie from Sinope. As previously mentioned we are working very hard to have the API by the end of this year. I will post something here as soon as it is available. You can also register to our newsletter (go to sinopetech.com to do so) to be kept informed on our new products and developments. As for the question about the 4000W I am happy to announce that it is now available. If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to contact us at info@sinopetech.com. We will be happy to answer them. Once again, thank you very much to you all for your interest."

Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: michaelhinchey on February 05, 2017, 02:59:04 pm
Hi,

i have been waiting for some time for something and when I saw mysa today, it looked very promising. I went ahead and pre-ordered 3. What also convinced me was the rapid response time from Joshua when I asked him about integration with vera, alexa, siri (homekit)...
here is a referral link http://mysa.refr.cc/joselsiles (http://mysa.refr.cc/joselsiles), if you purchase, I get $10 and so do you :)

Once i receive them in October 2017, I will update this thread with my findings.

Luis

Unfortunatly Zachary avoided the question while texting with him.  He kept running around the answer but he did finally tell me it doesnt work and they would be hopefully ready by oct launch.  I will pay the ten extra dollars when they say it will work properly and I will be watching this closely. 
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: desertdweller on June 30, 2017, 11:07:45 am
Unfortunatly Zachary avoided the question while texting with him.  He kept running around the answer but he did finally tell me it doesnt work and they would be hopefully ready by oct launch.  I will pay the ten extra dollars when they say it will work properly and I will be watching this closely.

Can you clarify this post please? What doesn't work, the integration with Vera?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: aunpixel on November 03, 2017, 03:14:20 pm
Any update?
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: alien8er on November 05, 2017, 06:58:15 pm
I'm looking at possibly packaging all my Vera's and hub for sale. This is bs. I also bought a few more believing their promises of API's. I read on their Facebook that they are adding Google assistant integration, but i want vera integration for specific scenes. Would also love it to be able to read events on calenders to determine what the heat should be depending on who is home.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on November 18, 2017, 09:05:16 am
Sinope made us the promise to provide us with an API for Vera ... unfortunately they never fulfilled their promise while we bought their products on the basis of their promise .... Unfortunately they tried to make us believe of the complexity of producing an API for Vera ... I believe more than they signed exclusive contracts with other suppliers promising not to produce an API for Vera ...  otherwise how a product made by engineers can not find someone in their company to make an application that would allow them to create a broader market...
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: jchin on December 22, 2017, 04:56:56 pm
Has this product made it to market?
I am looking for a line voltage thermostat compatible with Vera that can control my electric floor heat.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: gwydionjhr on April 23, 2018, 04:01:59 pm
I'm a ST refugee and compatibility with my existing Sinope thermostats would be a nice to have on whatever platform I end up on.  I saw this thread while doing my research and contacted Sinope to see if they had any updates to provide.  This is the response I got back.

Quote
Hello,
 
We currently working on a compatibility with Vera. But I do not know when this integration will be announce. Many test must be done and we are waiting for some authorizations on Vera side.
Title: Re: Line-voltage baseboard heater thermostat
Post by: Viruta57 on May 29, 2018, 05:07:25 am
We had the same answer since 2014.... It could interesting is people from Vera would confirm of Sinope intention were real or lies...
So I'm looking forward to see what's the answer....I will make my own prediction .... nothing will happen ... :-X