Vera - Smarter Home Control Forum

Beta and Pre-Release (Public) => Beta Testing (Public) => Topic started by: hugheaves on December 11, 2014, 12:40:43 pm

Title: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: hugheaves on December 11, 2014, 12:40:43 pm
Any other developers receive this email from MCV this morning? (words "bolded" as in original email, not by me)

Quote
Dear MiOS Development Partner,

We are reaching out to you today regarding the status of your app or plug-in in the MiOS  marketplace.

It is been nearly a year since we launched UI6 and the new MMS backend. Since that time many developers have successfully updated their apps to be fully compatible with the new backend infrastructure and programming requirements.

With the release of our new UI7 in August we began the process of compiling a list of apps that have yet to be updated. Unfortunately your submission falls into this category.

As a courtesy, rather than remove your application or plug-in from the marketplace, MiOS has made the basic updates required for it to remain active and able to be downloaded by customers.

We implore you to take the time to review, update, and resubmit your application or plug-in to be fully compliant with UI7.

As always, should you have any comments, questions, or concerns please do not hesitate to be in touch.

We look forward to your continued feedback, participation, and support. Thank you very much.

Cheers,

Colin Burke McClure
Sr. Director of Product Development
 
MiOS  ?  Puts You in Control

EDIT : contact information should not be posted on the forum

I'm still not sure how they expect me to maintain / develop a UI7 plugin when I have no UI7 device on which to develop and test, and there is no real documentation on UI7, or plug-in migration. If they choose to remove my plug-in because of that, then there's not much that I can do to stop them, but it certainly seems counter productive.

Hugh
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: guessed on December 11, 2014, 01:54:30 pm
I got one of those nondescript notices also. 

I gave them a reply, but I'm guessing they won't like it.  I'll wait to see how they respond before I comment further.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 11, 2014, 02:05:27 pm
I can see where they are coming from and what they are trying to do. Which is to make sure all plugins in their app store are compatible with their new defacto standard UI7 OS.

However, they don't seem to realize the following:
1. Most of these plug-ins were created by community members and shared with the community without any financial incentive or gain.
2. The availability of these plugins is what provides the Vera platform with some of it's appeal/desirability.
3. For these plugins to be made UI7 compatible, the author would have to make a considerable financial investment (purchase a Ui7 Vera device at least) without any ROI. However Vera Ltd would be the one benefiting with another UI7 plugin in their store.  This does not add up.

Rather than an Apple style 'make it UI7 compatible or be removed from the app store' edict, without any consideration for the above, they should offer plugin developers for example UI7 loaners units with a developer kit for Ui7. Or eg a VeraEdge for a highly reduced price with the condition the plugin should be Ui7 compatible within time frame X or be charged full price for the unit.

I'm hoping those developers that get locked out of the app store will use another means (eg the forums) to provide access to their plugins. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on December 11, 2014, 02:20:54 pm
Rather than an Apple style 'make it UI7 compatible or be removed from the app store' edict, without any consideration for the above, they should offer plugin developers for example UI7 loaners units with a developer kit for Ui7. Or eg a VeraEdge for a highly reduced price with the condition the plugin should be Ui7 compatible within time frame X or be charged full price for the unit.
Frankly, I think they should give them out free to developers whose apps they'd like to see continue - they must already have a stockpile of units returned by unhappy customers.

Quote
I'm hoping those developers that get locked out of the app store will use another means (eg the forums) to provide access to their plugins.
Given the appalling interface that the App store has in configuring apps for publishing, then this would probably be easier.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RichardTSchaefer on December 11, 2014, 02:29:24 pm
I always though they should have a bitmask with a bit for each UI version in the AppStore.

Both the developer and MIOS should have access to this.
If support has many reported issues .. they could turn off the bit on a particular version
If the developer does not think it's ready for a new release ... they should be able to turn off the bit.

MIOS can decide how to initialize these bits when a new UI version is developed.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on December 11, 2014, 02:35:38 pm
I did not get one of those notes - but I recently was able to make my plugin compatible with UI7.  BUT - It does not have the full functionality when running on UI7 because of bugs in UI7 (which Mios admit)

IF UI7 was a production release (are Mios actually claiming that ?) then I could understand why they would be pushing.  In reality it's still, at best, Beta.

I bit the bullet and upgraded my one and only Vera unit so that I could get UI7 working but in doing so have no way to retroactively test against UI5 (at least practically).   I did this because I thought UI7 would, by now, be production ready and that many users would start to migrate.  Continuing posts by developers way more knowledgeable than I - say otherwise and users are voting by downgrading.

@Mios - fix the architectural and code issues in UI7 and you can take the high ground.  Until then - be at least a little humble and do something to encourage the developers of plugins that make the overall product experience (at least on UI5) way, way better than would otherwise be the case.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 11, 2014, 03:37:37 pm
I decided to see what all the brouhaha on Ui7 is about and upgraded my backup Vera3 to UI7.

First impressions definitely match those expressed by others.  I may run it just to have ZCOMBO's working and have remote notification from those.

On that note, any plug-in developers near Tampa, Fl who need to test their plugins for UI7 compatibility. If you can return it (unharmed of course) within 1 or 2 weeks, I'm willing to loan it out to you.

 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: futzle on December 11, 2014, 04:40:35 pm
I had one of these emails too. I'm still thinking about how to respond, if at all. I've had a couple of public arguments on this forum with the name at the bottom of that email; it's not surprising to me that its text lacks in the tact department.

The big stumbling block for me is that developing for Vera is no longer fun.  Back in the heady frontier days of UI4 it was rewarding to see my devices integrate with Vera, and I could forgive the shoddy documentation and poor debugging environment because, well, it was new and surely MCV would fix it up in due course. Since then, the user base of Vera has grown and there are inevitably more users at the end of the experience bell curve that need more guidance with technical things like catching logs and debugging serial connections. Yet the MiOS tools are exactly the same. Heck, some of them, like the execrable "app store", are still rooted in UI5.

Free stuff from Vera isn't going to change the fun factor for me. Making the plugin infrastructure better and providing a stable, well-documented interface, a bug tracker that I can submit to and watch as bugs are fixed, and better debugging and logging would go a long way to fixing this. But there doesn't seem to be any stomach for it in Vera land.

I'm tempted to just let my plugins wither on the vine. If a plugin is important, users will complain and Vera will have to spend time patching it up. I've released all of my plugins under the GPL so it shouldn't be much effort for them (as they keep telling us). They've already done this for my WeMo plugin.

It saddens me to say that I don't really care any more. But as wonderful as this forum is, I don't owe Vera anything. Nor do I feel that they owe me anything in return. It gives me just a little comfort to conclude from their actions that they feel the same way.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: steets250 on December 11, 2014, 04:54:07 pm
As someone who has been able to greatly benefit from the plugins all of you have created, it annoys me greatly that Vera/MCV is not supporting the developers nearly as much (or at all) as they should be. Plugins are an important part of Vera, and without them, Vera is useless. MCV needs to realize how important you are and how many customers they will loose if they are removing and not helping the development of plugins. I wish everyone that has created a plugin luck with MCV. They need to get their act together. If plugin developers do decide to leave, please let customers know what platform that they are switching to, I and lots of others will be sure to follow.

Thank you for all of your hard work and dedication to Vera plugins!

Steven
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: amg0 on December 11, 2014, 05:07:29 pm
Maybe my plugins are too small ...  but I did not get the letter.  now I am jealous  ;)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on December 11, 2014, 05:09:02 pm
I had one of these emails too. I'm still thinking about how to respond, if at all. I've had a couple of public arguments on this forum with the name at the bottom of that email; it's not surprising to me that its text lacks in the tact department.

The big stumbling block for me is that developing for Vera is no longer fun.  Back in the heady frontier days of UI4 it was rewarding to see my devices integrate with Vera, and I could forgive the shoddy documentation and poor debugging environment because, well, it was new and surely MCV would fix it up in due course. Since then, the user base of Vera has grown and there are inevitably more users at the end of the experience bell curve that need more guidance with technical things like catching logs and debugging serial connections. Yet the MiOS tools are exactly the same. Heck, some of them, like the execrable "app store", are still rooted in UI5.

Free stuff from Vera isn't going to change the fun factor for me. Making the plugin infrastructure better and providing a stable, well-documented interface, a bug tracker that I can submit to and watch as bugs are fixed, and better debugging and logging would go a long way to fixing this. But there doesn't seem to be any stomach for it in Vera land.

I'm tempted to just let my plugins wither on the vine. If a plugin is important, users will complain and Vera will have to spend time patching it up. I've released all of my plugins under the GPL so it shouldn't be much effort for them (as they keep telling us). They've already done this for my WeMo plugin.

It saddens me to say that I don't really care any more. But as wonderful as this forum is, I don't owe Vera anything. Nor do I feel that they owe me anything in return. It gives me just a little comfort to conclude from their actions that they feel the same way.

I couldn't have said it better. My interest in development has disappeared and it's starting to get to be way to much work to support these on going issues. I'm burnt!

- Garrett
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on December 11, 2014, 05:44:39 pm
The big stumbling block for me is that developing for Vera is no longer fun
Hits the nail on the head...

Quote
It saddens me to say that I don't really care any more.
...and drives it home.

The combination of UI7 and Vera Edge, have, well, driven us to the edge.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on December 11, 2014, 07:03:45 pm
It saddens me that the plugin devs are so poorly treated and are so burnt out.

I suggest all devs remove their apps from the app store and create a public repo somewhere to get them. Installs would be harder, but then mios would feel it more with an empty appstore...


Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on December 11, 2014, 09:10:28 pm
Can't say I didn't see this coming.... Being from the tech world and involved in product development projects, it became obvious after awhile how dysfunctional MCV is as a company. I won't repeat my criticisms here.

This product would be useless without the many folks posting here. If the plug-in devs bail, so be it. It will make my decision to go to a product like HomeSeer easy then. Sure, many of the plug-ins there are paid for, but the company at least keeps the third-party developers involved.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: d55m14 on December 12, 2014, 03:24:04 am
Isn't there any value open source zwave controller where is possibile with minimal effort reuse all the plugin ?

Tnks Donato
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on December 12, 2014, 03:56:35 am
It is so sad that MCV is going in the direction it is. You devs have been shoulders carrying MCV to the success (abiet shortlived as it is) it has. MCV should be supporting you guys 100%, instead they take your work for granted and could care less. So I feel your pain and hope UI5 lives on a little longer against the wishes of MCV.

I do hope you devs keep us all informed of which direction you go if you do move on. I don't doubt most users will bail with you and jump into a new system at this point. After investing $$$ with MCV, they should be ashamed at the way they are treating everybody here. UI7=crap, VeraEdge=crap, but they move along as if everything is perfect. They haven"t even had the balls to come here and "buck up" to the issues and explain what the hell they are going to do about it.

I don't have much faith that MCV will be in business much longer at this rate. We all should be discussing alternatives at this point to find another controller and move on.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on December 12, 2014, 07:15:01 pm
All,

This is an incredibly, incredibly off-putting thread to read. The general level of animosity, discontent, and negativism expressed here is beyond disheartening.

futzle & garrettwp you are spot on? This should be fun! If it isn?t, something is quite obviously wrong.

Again, I?m not sure how, or where, this overwhelmingly venomous sentiment comes from here. Quite honestly, it?s part of reason I?ve spent as little time as I have in the forums over the last 3 years, as most of what I read here is contentious at best.

bucko, it?s not about having ?balls,? I?m just not interested in participating in the drama. No one on the MiOS/Vera side is looking to engage in a ?public argument,? as futzle proffers. Quite the opposite really. We love this stuff! Just like you guys do.

It?s obvious, as you guys wouldn?t show up here day after day, week after week, year after year if you didn?t! The same is true of the nearly 100 employees we have worldwide that wake up each day and come to work and strive to make this the best possible product that we can to deliver a robust, broadly deployed platform for you to develop/innovate on/from to share with hundreds of thousands of other likeminded users.

It?s no surprise that we struggle managing the (very) fragile balance of the wants and needs of our legacy users against those of the broader consumer base that we?ve grown into over the last 24-36 months. It?s a challenge. Daily.

Our business has more than doubled year over year every year. Can we do a better job supporting our development community? Surely. We?re a small bootstrapped startup. We?re resource constrained; it comes with the territory. But this constant rhetoric that we?re abandoning our ?roots? or turning our backs on our ?original? customers is absolute rubbish. Full stop.

We ALL want the same thing. So rather than burning cycles here in the forum commiserating, conspiring, and droning on and on and on, let?s put that energy toward something beneficial and constructive. For all parties concerned.

That said, the request for better documentation and developer resources is, and has been, clear. We could not agree with you guys more. As such, we?re working diligently to bolster these assets, as well as transactional enablement of the MMS backend so that you can monetize your app & plugin efforts in the coming year.

In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

In the interim, if you guys have ANY comments, questions, or concerns, please reach out to the developers@ address so we can address them ASAP. And as always, if I can be of assistance or you need to escalate a specific issue, I am standing by to help.

Long story short, we know there are growing pains. They affect us all. Trust me. But in no way, shape, or form are we anything but humble and appreciative of your efforts - past, present, and future.

As always, thanks for your candor and support.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RHINESEL on December 13, 2014, 08:02:52 am
Quite honestly, it?s part of reason I?ve spent as little time as I have in the forums over the last 3 years, as most of what I read here is contentious at best.

I'm certainly no developer so I won't get into that side of the argument but I will comment on this line.

Time and time again when things start to get "bumpy" I've seen companies take this route.  It's a "bury your head in the sand" mentality and it almost always leads to a failed product.  The people on this forum are the people that are PASSIONATE about the product.  WE are the first to find bugs, WE are the first to find flaws, and WE are the first hold you up to a greater standard.  But do you know what else?  WE are the first to agree to beta test software, WE are the first to leap to new products, and WE are the first to jump in and work with you to find SOLUTIONS.

People on this forum are a RESOURCE.  Not only to each other but to MiCaseVerde/GetVera.  We WANT to work with you as long as you WANT to work with us.

There will always be some percentage of people that are never happy.  Just like there are some percentage of people that are so happy they are blinded by the truth (fanboys).  Don't let your beliefs be blinded by what you see those two groups post.  They only make up a small percentage of your larger customer base. 

I wish GetVera the best.  You are entering a stage of the market that has evolved (or in some regards devolved).  Home automation is trying to become mainstream but in that attempt many systems have dumbed down their approach.  Please remember your roots.  Many of your customers want home automation, not the home control style of devices being produced now.  Don't chase a trending market (which is peaking 5 years too soon) only to lose the ground you already gained.

Regards,

Matt

PS. If you ever want to converse for any reason, I'm always available for PM.  I (along with others) will do what we can to make your product the best it can be.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 13, 2014, 08:36:55 am
Seconded! One of my main reasons for sticking with Vera is that she can run my house even if the Internet is down. And I agree, most of us in here are pretty passionate about the platform. So much so that emotions can run a bit high. :-)

GetVera, don't ignore us, use our passion and commitment and knowledge to help you make the platform better. I'm sure everyone agrees the plug-ins made by the community have added values to the platform, rather then the other way around.

Facebook may be the current fad, but the majority of your audience there are new users, just sticking their toes in the Vera pool. Dedicate a resource to these forums if only to keep us up to date on progress, find out how we use the platform to give you an idea of the direction most beneficial to take. Let the highly negative and highly positive cancel each other out and be left with the middle. Which can greatly benefit you.

Perhaps even partly dedicate a development resource to help budding plugin developers. Posting example code for certain actions will benefit far more than one person. As will providing assistance if developers run into a dead end. Others will see that info and avoid the stumbling block. That support may actually gain you more plugins to add value to the platform.

I'm sure you've seen members in here help each other solve problems. Which reduces the load on your support staff as those problems are not escalated to your support email. Realize that you have what is basically an unpaid pool of support staff.

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: hmspain on December 13, 2014, 10:51:02 am
Had to jump in with my two cents.  I would encourage MCV to design a controller that they would want in their own homes; no skimping on the memory or cpu or storage, no need to fiddle with external USB drives to store more logs.

It may not hit your Marketing $100 price point, but if you are watching the market like I am, the home automation/security market is getting ready to heat up, and price of the controller is not really an issue.  I think of the thousands (oh yes) I have invested in Zwave... the controller either makes it work or makes it junk.

I guess I'm encouraging MCV to think like Apple and build the device *they* would like to take home.  We WILL buy it.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: gregl on December 15, 2014, 05:40:58 am
MCV/Vera ,

I suggest you really start putting A LOT more energy into working with the developers you have. A private mailing list with inside info..whats coming/access to a decent bug tracker...ASK THEM!!!

Small/medium/large... if you ignore this wonderful resource much more im sure they will be developing their bits for other systems. Already many are active at OpenHAB.

Yours to lose....
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: rayp on December 15, 2014, 09:47:22 am
I am not a developer, I am a CUSTOMER. There are so many controllers coming to market now and when I chose my Veralite, I read the reviews and chose the MCV based on them noting that it is supported well by it's user base and purchased it SOLELY on that fact.

I previously owned a reasonably higher end aquarium controller (well into it for $1000+), then they started rolling out flaky software and basically blamed the end user that it was something on their end that changed (couldn't possibly be our software that was a problem that put your $15K worth of fish and corals at risk because the chiller or heater controls changed). I sold that controller based on the arrogance and ignorance of that company and went with the company that listen to it's customers (and still does-very, very well!) and was the best dam decision I made to get away from that old company-who are of course no longer in business, no surprise there.

I come to this forum everyday just like many others and enjoy the plug ins and apps that allow me to do wonderful, creative automation with my home. MCV has worked hard to provide the platform for the developers to provide many, many useful plug ins, but make no mistake MCV it's the plug ins and the support from the developers and people on forums like these folks that make the devices appealing. The developers are telling you something-please continue to support them as they are very much supporting you.

I am only a customer and as always my option is to take my business else where, and when that happens I am not likely to return. Trust me when I tell you that I would far sooner come to a forum and search for the answer to a problem or post a question that is answered from a source of extremely knowledgeable people (think 'Reef Central'-for those into Salt Water Tanks) rather than waiting 2-3 days for a companies tech support to 'get back to me'.

I hope that MCV continues to work with the developers, continues to offer an outstanding product, and supports the developers to the level needed.

Ray
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on December 15, 2014, 07:54:53 pm
@ Colin's response

I'll start by saying your response in itself is welcomed to see. That being said, I want to address a few of your comments.

"Again, I?m not sure how, or where, this overwhelmingly venomous sentiment comes from here."
MCV's policy towards it's customers and users created this sentiment. You alone are responsible for it. MCV chooses to not inform users of updates, and worse, forces users to accept them by discontinueing support to those who decide not to update. We become your beta testers as clearly you release major updates before doing much in the way of pre testing. Then, as users are reporting the same big problems they are experiencing, MCV makes no response addressing these problems or informing users of steps being taken to correct them. In short, it is MCV's attitude fueling this sentiment.

"That said, the request for better documentation and developer resources is, and has been, clear."
If so then stop talking and start walking. Do something about it! I am on here daily for over 3 years now, still nothing is done about it. Just "talk". There have even been talented members offering to do this for you. MCV doesn't even have the courtesy to make a response to them. "Trust me. But in no way, shape, or form are we anything but humble and appreciative of your efforts - past, present, and future." Step up and earn that trust from your users. We all WANT to see you have great success. We are not against MCV, but we are the ones fueling your success, treat us users with a little respect and LEARN from our experiences. Your service to users defines your success or failure. You need to turn around, get humble, and RESPOND to these issues many users are experiencing. Good service is critical to your success.

Bottom line here is the UI7 update. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. It is crap. Plain and simple. You must know it, but your attitude is bury your head in the sand and plod on. STOP IT! FIX IT! or better yet, START OVER! MVC's knees began to wobble with your release of UI6. That came and went rather quickly. You had the sense to nip it in the bud and develope UI7. But in your haste to get UI7 out, MCV nosedived into the abyss. From the GUI down to it's operation, it is a failure. Listen to your users! Make it right, or start over for the love of God. And where is this support of the user devs here? I've never see it. Now we are all going to lose them because of their frustration with MCV. When they are gone, so goes the rest of your users.

Colin, don't blow smoke. You may be uncomfortable with the sentiment here. You can change it. We will help you! LET US HELP YOU. You are pushing aside a valuable resource for your company. This is what needs changing. And this forum is the place you need to be participating in. Not some "social network". Right here! What is so hard to understand about that? I for one do not care about the un-organized jabber Facebook offers. This is not the place to solve problems. It is a promotional environment. Here is where you need to become active and report information to users. The "broader consumer base that we?ve grown into over the last 24-36 months." will be nothing but a memory for MCV if you continue on your same course of action.

Just "Walk to walk" MCV and take care of your own FIRST. Or as I like to put it; Buck up!

In conclusion, don't mis-read my comments as attacks against you. They are pleadings to get MCV to realize changes are desperately needed....now. I hope you take it as that and become proactive with your service to all your users.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on December 15, 2014, 11:48:56 pm
@ Mios

There is a reasonable expectation that new software releases improve on those before it. There is a perception by the user and developer community that UI7 has not delivered.  Mios (by releasing UI7 as 'production ready' ) believes UI7, for the most part, delivers on it's promise.  This mismatch, in large part,  is the root cause of the disappointment that has been widely expressed towards UI7.

What were the design goals for UI7 both from an end user experience perspective and an underlying functional perspective?  Mios - you need to tell us what the UI7 objectives / benefits are so we know (as users) what to expect and (as developers) what we can exploit.  It's simply not clear at this stage and it should be.  Once we understand we and you can take the emotion out and make informed decisions.  As things stand, I (and based on comments in many threads, most others) do not see the value of UI7 over UI5.

Communicate with us and we can have a 'grown up'  exchange, without communicating - well you already see the result.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on December 16, 2014, 10:43:02 pm
Wanted to post a quick follow up, as the influx of emails, PMs, and the replies here surely warrant it. I'll respond, individually, over the next couple of days (schedule permitting), as we are in the midst of the pre-CES crunch right now.

Thank you! Sincerely, thank you, to each and every one of you that have reached out to me.

In reading the responses the one constant is passion. And our lack of clear communication, here. You are absolutely right. It's true.  We've been much more present in social media than we have here in the forum over the last 12 -18 months. This channel deserves equal, if not more attention. That's a clear miss on our part.

That said, I'd like to introduce a key member of my team, Marc Shenker, whom I've asked to help ensure we are much more involved here, and responsive to groups' wants and needs, overall.

Please welcome him and know that he is empowered, at a very high level, to help catalog, channel, and resolve any outstanding items and issues that you guys have.

We hear you. We are listening! And we very much look forward to a meaningful ongoing dialog and making this FUN again, as otherwise it is all for naught.

As I said previously, we love this stuff, as much as you do. We're in this, together!

Onward...
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mclass on December 17, 2014, 12:00:27 am
As a "stalker" on this thread (and a user/integrator, not a developer), I can no longer resist dipping my oar .....

The parallels between the feelings here and those over at the Fibaro forum following their recent release of a deeply flawed beta are remarkable. 

Fibaro are about to release to the US market at CES and have focused heavily on social media, making claims that are simply not achievable reliably with current firmware.  It would appear that their marketing department has hijacked the development budget!!

I am keeping a foot in both camps, because I'm predicting one or other of these controllers will not be around in twelve months.  I am heartened by the fact that Colin has responded so positively and the level of passion of the development community, and wish Vera the best.  Many thanks too, to all the developers for the plug ins that make Vera so versatile.

I will watch with interest!

Stalking mode back on .....
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: micasaverde on December 17, 2014, 09:20:23 am
I'm sorry this has happened.  The problem we had with UI5 was that the smarthome world was getting away from web UI's.  Several of the new systems are 'mobile only' and don't even have a web ui.  But our UI5 plugins couldn't ever work on mobile if they had UI elements, since the UI was all html and javascript.  So, with UI7 we wanted to try to have a universal way of building plugin controls so we could add the code in mobile and the plugins would be universal across all UI's.  But it was overly ambitious and we failed to deliver, but couldn't hold up UI7 any longer--it had already been 2 years that UI5 was out and the market has come along way and dealers were pushing us that we HAD to get with the program and release a more mainstream user-friendly UI7.  Further, we tried to have a 'compatibility' interface in Ui7 that would ensure the existing UI5 plugins worked without modifications, albeit with the controls in a popup window.  But we couldn't achieve the goal of backward compatibility we were hoping for.  So, as a stop gap I had one of our own Lua developers tasked with making the necessary modifications ourselves to the UI5 plugins, if the original developers were ok with that.  I understand you're all volunteers and nobody's making money off the plugins and developers write code when they have time and we can't expect any devs to give up their free time and re-write the code they already spent a lot of time on because we broke compatibility with UI7.

Also, the way tech support was telling people they had to upgrade to Ui7 was not a management decision.  I think, in general, support reps always want customers running the latest version so they're not filling out bug reports on something that's already been fixed.  However given the incompatibility of UI5 plugins and the major changes to the UI, I asked them to be sure to continue supporting UI5.

We're having some internal discussions to decide what can be done about the damage this has caused to our development community.

Aaorn
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mrv777 on December 17, 2014, 09:47:09 am
I just want to say that it is good to see posts from MIOS here and it is appreciated.  I think the Vera has a lot of potential and want to see it excel.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on December 17, 2014, 10:55:54 am
I'm sorry this has happened.  The problem we had with UI5 was that the smarthome world was getting away from web UI's.  Several of the new systems are 'mobile only' and don't even have a web ui.  But our UI5 plugins couldn't ever work on mobile if they had UI elements, since the UI was all html and javascript.  So, with UI7 we wanted to try to have a universal way of building plugin controls so we could add the code in mobile and the plugins would be universal across all UI's.  But it was overly ambitious and we failed to deliver, but couldn't hold up UI7 any longer--it had already been 2 years that UI5 was out and the market has come along way and dealers were pushing us that we HAD to get with the program and release a more mainstream user-friendly UI7.  Further, we tried to have a 'compatibility' interface in Ui7 that would ensure the existing UI5 plugins worked without modifications, albeit with the controls in a popup window.  But we couldn't achieve the goal of backward compatibility we were hoping for.  So, as a stop gap I had one of our own Lua developers tasked with making the necessary modifications ourselves to the UI5 plugins, if the original developers were ok with that.  I understand you're all volunteers and nobody's making money off the plugins and developers write code when they have time and we can't expect any devs to give up their free time and re-write the code they already spent a lot of time on because we broke compatibility with UI7.

Also, the way tech support was telling people they had to upgrade to Ui7 was not a management decision.  I think, in general, support reps always want customers running the latest version so they're not filling out bug reports on something that's already been fixed.  However given the incompatibility of UI5 plugins and the major changes to the UI, I asked them to be sure to continue supporting UI5.

We're having some internal discussions to decide what can be done about the damage this has caused to our development community.

Aaorn

This is the first straightforward and revealing post I've seen here, since I've been here. It's refreshing to actually hear the details and talk to us like we're partners here (many of us, including myself, are professionals in the technology industry with backgrounds in HW and SW product development).

Based on the info provide, my advice moving forward is that you form some sort of Product Development Council/Advisory Board that consists of dealers *and* 3rd party developers *and* power users here. There are many smart folks here who might have had ideas on how you could have achieved the product goals that were desired, in a given time frame.

Just some food for thought.

-TC
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on December 17, 2014, 11:41:09 am
@Aaorn

+1 to TC1 comment and thank you for this information.

I will be following up with Andrei (always responsive and helpful) but wanted to take the opportunity to illustrate the depth of the issue Mios faces - right now.  Please to not take this as a 'blast' - I mean it only to illustrate one aspect where Mios can do better and we as a community can be more effective.

My plugin (GCal3) has been modified by me (and checked my Mios) to work with both UI5 and UI7.  Separate UI code for each version, updated javascript etc.  All the testing was done in a browser and it works fine.

Based on the post above - I went to my Android and downloaded the UI7 mobile interface.   The things that I noticed are: the icons do not display, arm and disarm buttons are combined but there is no way to access the plugin itself (i.e. get at the control advanced etc tabs).  It looks like the only thing I can do is set modes and turn plugins on or off.

I suspect the cosmetic aspect (icons not showing up) are a bug and in any case not a 'biggie'.  But - there is an apparent, large loss of user functionality (in my case feedback to the user as to what calendar events are pending / triggered) .  Based on the post above where it was stated that the 'big push' was to a mobile experience - I assumed I would see (layout aside) the same sort of  functionality as in the browser.  Is this meant to be ?    Should I have tested against the mobile UI?  My current impression is that it is 'broken' - that may be completely wrong or a bit right or ....

These are the sort of things that we need to know in advance of developing and enhancing plugins etc.

Stuart
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 17, 2014, 12:21:14 pm
Looking back, maybe the best thing Colin did was indeed send out the email to the developers as the result of it was that all sides posted their viewpoints and everyone read them all and realized what was right and what needs fixing. All of us I am sure want to see the Vera platform succeed and stay very much alive. Be it GetVera, Developers, end users or integrators. I think the passion shown in this thread made everyone realize we are in this together and communication is the key to keep everyone involved and working together.


@Aaron: As for your WebUI statement. I agree. The only time I use the dashboard is when I have to add/modify devices or scenes. All other control is via my Android devices using the excellent AuthomationHD app.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on December 17, 2014, 05:49:00 pm
Hi everyone. Just wanted to introduce myself, formally. I?m Marc.

Excited to join the community and getting to know you all. Look forward to being an active member here, and as a direct conduit to MiOS/Vera. As Colin said, we hear you and we are listening! Clearly.

My contact info is in my signature. If I can be of help please don't hesitate to ask.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on December 17, 2014, 06:31:21 pm
Hi everyone. Just wanted to introduce myself, formally. I?m Marc.

Excited to join the community and getting to know you all. Look forward to being an active member here, and as a direct conduit to MiOS/Vera. As Colin said, we hear you and we are listening! Clearly.

My contact info is in my signature. If I can be of help please don't hesitate to ask.

Marc,

I am glad to see you here and hope that this is a start to a whole new era for MCV.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on December 17, 2014, 07:07:02 pm
Well, there you go.
 Let me be the first  (slap on the back & handshake) to say you Vera guys are doing the right thing now! Warm welcome to you all and it is VERY nice to read your comments. You have made the important step coming forward starting a dialogue with us users and devs.  I see great benefits ahead for all of us.

It takes a stand-up company to come around to the decisions you've made over the past few days. I'm sure this is heartwarming news for members in here. I am not a coder, but do have an electronics/technical background. If there is anything I can help with, just PM me. I will do my best to pitch in.

And also, Welcome Marc, happy to see you here as well.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Chris H. on December 21, 2014, 12:09:21 am
I have been using my VeraLite for 2-3 years now and been in these forums every week since I started. This is the first time in a long time I have actually seen MiOS address the community, so I wanted to applaud MiOS for the change in direction. It was well over due but let's move on in the right diction now. We all want Vera to succeed since we have spent tons of time, energy and money in our systems.

Please keep in mind that happy customers equal new customers. When people see my iPad or iPhone on the Homewave screen where you can view my security cameras thanks to the BlueIris plugin and my alarm system thanks to the DSC plugin and my sprinkler system thanks to the openSprinkler plugin that starts the whole conversation on what it is and were they can get it. I even offer to take my time to help them order it, install it and point them to these forums for support. So with all the new players in the home automation market I really do hope MiOS can read the writing in the wall and listen to is forum members.

My 2 cents: MiOS should develop the hardware and bindings and put the software on github as open source. Your members are more passionate about this product then the people you pay, so let them pour them selves into your product and watch it grow faster then you could have done on your own and redirect your resources to supporting the development community. OpenHAB looks like it is about to take off, if it does many of the members here will be switching unless you allow them to run it on your hardware. Just make sure your hardware is better and people WILL pay for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: lolodomo on December 21, 2014, 01:07:59 pm
@Marc: is there plans to make the Mios marketplace usable by UI7 developers, I mean with an access with an UI7 account and with the ability to test plugin deployment before releasing it ?

If not, I have to live with UI5 ... until I release all my plugins in the MiOS marketplace.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on December 22, 2014, 12:00:19 pm
@Marc: is there plans to make the Mios marketplace usable by UI7 developers, I mean with an access with an UI7 account and with the ability to test plugin deployment before releasing it ?

If not, I have to live with UI5 ... until I release all my plugins in the MiOS marketplace.

Yes, the "Marketplace" as a whole is scheduled to be overhauled after the first of the year. In addition to cosmetic improvements, devs will have a bunch of new tools at their disposal that should make approving, publishing, and managing/maintaining their applications and plugins much more straightforward. More to follow.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on December 22, 2014, 07:00:37 pm
Great to see some involvement from the MIOS team!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 23, 2014, 10:55:29 am
Colin, Marc,

Where would be the best place to post a bug report for the latest 1.7.481 release? as I found a simple to fix one.

Under Users & Account info -> User Info

The location of the 'Send me push notification' check box line is very confusing. As it is right below the 'Phone Provider' line and right above the 'My Phone Number is' line. Making it seem like you have to enter a phone number for push notifications. As also indicated by the next line 'YOu have to set up a phone number in order to receive notifications' That phone number field however cannot be entered unless you have text messages enabled and really isn't needed for push notifications as it works fine for me without. (I don't have a text plan so I did not check text messages)

May I suggest to relocate the Push Notifications line to just above the 'Send me an Email' one in the next release? 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on December 29, 2014, 12:59:11 pm
@BOFH, I'll forward your feedback to the right person. In the future if you could email it to me, that would best.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bigbasec on December 29, 2014, 11:22:45 pm
Any chance we can get an update on when to expect another firmware update?   

Things I have noticed that make this really unusable for me are currently :
Settings and Advanced on devices(plugins mostly) are blank.  (GC100 is one of them, you can install the plugins but it's almost like tricking the GUI(Control-F5/Login/Logout,etc) to get it to actually allow you to put in the IP address. 
Speed of the GUI is horrible.  Tons of calls to this proxy.sh call (which I am assuming is hitting your servers) are giving ISE 500 errors, a bunch are throwing 404 and it's really just buggy. 
That stupid "thinking" green wheel thing gets stuck on the screen and forces me to refresh the whole page(which currently takes about 5-10 seconds). 

I've tried to do 2 devices on this Edge and both have failed.  Foscam doesn't let you pick your preset, and the GC100 can't set the IP(I did at one point manage to get it to work, but then I deleted it to try again to see if I could get my other one working, and nothing). 

All in all, it's pretty frustrating.  If it wasn't for having a support ticket open from 9 days ago and getting a response today the Edge would have been back in the box and back to Amazon tomorrow. 

I have to agree w/ what others have said.  Give us the GUI.  We'll do things, big things. 

Thanks again for trying to get involved here, it's nice to see. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on December 30, 2014, 01:06:35 am
Any chance we can get an update on when to expect another firmware update?   

Things I have noticed that make this really unusable for me are currently :
Settings and Advanced on devices(plugins mostly) are blank.  (GC100 is one of them, you can install the plugins but it's almost like tricking the GUI(Control-F5/Login/Logout,etc) to get it to actually allow you to put in the IP address. 
Speed of the GUI is horrible.  Tons of calls to this proxy.sh call (which I am assuming is hitting your servers) are giving ISE 500 errors, a bunch are throwing 404 and it's really just buggy. 
That stupid "thinking" green wheel thing gets stuck on the screen and forces me to refresh the whole page(which currently takes about 5-10 seconds). 

I've tried to do 2 devices on this Edge and both have failed.  Foscam doesn't let you pick your preset, and the GC100 can't set the IP(I did at one point manage to get it to work, but then I deleted it to try again to see if I could get my other one working, and nothing). 

All in all, it's pretty frustrating.  If it wasn't for having a support ticket open from 9 days ago and getting a response today the Edge would have been back in the box and back to Amazon tomorrow. 

I have to agree w/ what others have said.  Give us the GUI.  We'll do things, big things. 

Thanks again for trying to get involved here, it's nice to see.

I heard the main support gurus (develpoment team) are on vacation until 2nd week of the New year and nothing likely to come out for a week after that. So I'm thinking mid Jan. is basically when one (we can all hope for more) of the many bugs might get fixed. Anyone wanna take a bet on what gets fixed and what doesn't? I'm  personally waiting mostly for USB to serial adapter support for my GE Alarm panel. Without that nearly 75% of my inputs (doors, windows, motions, smokes) don't work their for automation don't work. Until then my EDGE is an expensive paper weight. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: d55m14 on December 30, 2014, 06:24:42 am
How is it possible in this situation to think about vacation period ? !!

I've a VeraEdge and probably I'll change my controller asking for a refund .

best regards

Donato
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on December 30, 2014, 06:59:55 am
I'm getting mixed messages about this app development malarkey...

I'm not sure what it takes to be a bona fide Vera developer, but I am the author of a number of apps which seem to be appreciated (Netatmo, EventWatcher, DataYours), a few other useful code snippets, and I run three VeraLites with UI5.

Colin did mention that:
Quote
...all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on.
...and I was wondering whether I'd qualify as an "participatory development partner".

However, on further inquiry with the Vera team, I got told:
Quote
You are up to date in terms of hardware, we don't supply hardware to users who develop apps for the platform...

and also
Quote
With regard to UI5, it would be important that the app is developed for the current backbone and I believe that can be done using UI5 but I believe that all new apps have to function in UI7 for them to be added to the app store.

So I'm obviously misinterpreting what I took to be a new wave of enthusiasm for app developers and see no viable development path for me to migrate my apps onto VeraEdge and UI7.   I certainly have no motivation to acquire one just so that I can do this for the benefit of others (much as I like trying to help out here) and am once again thinking that my efforts would be better spent in moving elsewhere (OpenHAB anyone?)

The one thing that the Vera experience has done for me is to introduce me to Lua, and I have to say that I would be very loathe to regress to some lesser language (eg. Java) now!

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on December 30, 2014, 08:53:29 am
I'm getting mixed messages about this app development malarkey...

I'm not sure what it takes to be a bona fide Vera developer, but I am the author of a number of apps which seem to be appreciated (Netatmo, EventWatcher, DataYours), a few other useful code snippets, and I run three VeraLites with UI5.

Colin did mention that:
Quote
...all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on.
...and I was wondering whether I'd qualify as an "participatory development partner".

However, on further inquiry with the Vera team, I got told:
Quote
You are up to date in terms of hardware, we don't supply hardware to users who develop apps for the platform...

and also
Quote
With regard to UI5, it would be important that the app is developed for the current backbone and I believe that can be done using UI5 but I believe that all new apps have to function in UI7 for them to be added to the app store.

So I'm obviously misinterpreting what I took to be a new wave of enthusiasm for app developers and see no viable development path for me to migrate my apps onto VeraEdge and UI7.   I certainly have no enthusiasm to acquire one just so that I can do this for the benefit of others (much as I like trying to help out here) and am once again thinking that my efforts would be better spent in moving elsewhere (OpenHAB anyone?)

The one thing that the Vera experience has done for me is to introduce me to Lua, and I have to say that I would be very loathe to regress to some lesser language (eg. Java) now!

If dev's like you move to OpenHAB (I'm hearing more and more may be...) I'm heading out with you!!

I think it's painfully clear at this point; Vera Control's resource allocation to this segment of their business is not likely to increase. Therefore progress will be slow and painful at best. Colin can call it "venom" etc., but frankly IMO Vera's only reason for success (the reason I choose my Vera 3) is because of plug-in developers like akbooer.

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on December 30, 2014, 09:47:56 am
If dev's like you move to OpenHAB (I'm hearing more and more may be...) I'm heading out with you!!

I think it's painfully clear at this point; Vera Control's resource allocation to this segment of their business is not likely to increase. Therefore progress will be slow and painful at best. Colin can call it "venom" etc., but frankly IMO Vera's only reason for success (the reason I choose my Vera 3) is because of plug-in developers like akbooer.

I just think we are all hanging around a product that is not designed for us. What I mean by that is.......

Vera is made to be cheap to purchase not support our heavy needs.
Because of this it's lacking hardware. Multiprotocalls, Ram, CPU, Multi USB ports, Better WIFI.
There are pushing updates and support to built in devices and pushing plugins and such for advanced user to the bottom of the list. They are also not helping out the Dev's like in the above posts.

I see their thinking as 90% of their customer base doesn't end up on here, doesn't end up running plugins or advanced features, and they just figure lets crank out as many cheap 5.00 pizzas that we can, figuring that's what most people want. Cheap and basic.

If that's not their thoughts then they should produce a 300.00 VERA that has alot better hardware specs and start supporting/encouraging dev's to keep producing plugins.   

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on December 30, 2014, 06:09:31 pm
If dev's like you move to OpenHAB (I'm hearing more and more may be...) I'm heading out with you!!

I think it's painfully clear at this point; Vera Control's resource allocation to this segment of their business is not likely to increase. Therefore progress will be slow and painful at best. Colin can call it "venom" etc., but frankly IMO Vera's only reason for success (the reason I choose my Vera 3) is because of plug-in developers like akbooer.

I just think we are all hanging around a product that is not designed for us. What I mean by that is.......

Vera is made to be cheap to purchase not support our heavy needs.
Because of this it's lacking hardware. Multiprotocalls, Ram, CPU, Multi USB ports, Better WIFI.
There are pushing updates and support to built in devices and pushing plugins and such for advanced user to the bottom of the list. They are also not helping out the Dev's like in the above posts.

I see their thinking as 90% of their customer base doesn't end up on here, doesn't end up running plugins or advanced features, and they just figure lets crank out as many cheap 5.00 pizzas that we can, figuring that's what most people want. Cheap and basic.

If that's not their thoughts then they should produce a 300.00 VERA that has alot better hardware specs and start supporting/encouraging dev's to keep producing plugins.

 I think I paid around 300.00 bucks for my Vera 3......  8)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on December 30, 2014, 06:52:33 pm
+1 on that . $299 was the price for a Vera3 not to long ago and the Vera3 has multiple USB ports (2) and you could claim it having multiprotocols as it 'supports' insteon. ;)

As far as WiFi is concerned, the existing B/G/N should suffice for WiFi HA devices. I learned a while back that eg. putting my IPcams on Vera's WiFi does add to her CPU load and as such creates a bottle neck. So those are now on their own WiFi router as not to interfere with my normal WiFi network. So I currently barely use Vera3's WiFi but can see it being used for eg a WiFi thermostat or the likes.

I'm holding out for a possible VeraEdge+ with eg  Zigbee support and perhaps 433Mhz support. As well as a faster CPU and a lot more memory. Perhaps and expansion bus so other protocol modules could be added when available or desired. A bit like Zipato. (http://www.zipato.com/) Although that one doesn't seem to gaining much traction as the only US dealer is HomeControls. Also, it seems their rule generator is cloud based and not local to the device. Which means no internet, no HA.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Aaron on January 01, 2015, 08:24:35 pm
@Marc: is there plans to make the Mios marketplace usable by UI7 developers, I mean with an access with an UI7 account and with the ability to test plugin deployment before releasing it ?

If not, I have to live with UI5 ... until I release all my plugins in the MiOS marketplace.

Yes, the "Marketplace" as a whole is scheduled to be overhauled after the first of the year. In addition to cosmetic improvements, devs will have a bunch of new tools at their disposal that should make approving, publishing, and managing/maintaining their applications and plugins much more straightforward. More to follow.

Colin,
I hope you realize the Marketplace is one of the last things you should be focusing on.  I'll assume that you have not paid attention to the rest of this tread and or the two dozen other threads over the past 2 years that have voice EVEYONEs discontent with MCV / Vera as a WHOLE.

If you guys don't wake up, and do it fast, you are going to lose you entire user base because the ONLY DECENT CODE is developed by YOUR COMMUNITY ... NOT VERA.  I'm not sorry if you take this as an insult but as a current product manager for a Fortune 20 company, someone who has coded in the past, managed developers, loves home automation and ran at least 10 systems over the past decade... I can tell you what you guys are releasing to the community provides zero value... actually... it provides negative value (UI7)

If you guys are making money, congrats, I have no clue how... but I can tell you UI6, UI7, and the complete lack of respect you give your community will drive them away quickly as Google, Samsung, and everyone and their mother is now creating systems for HA.

Clock is ticking... if you don't want to sell the Vera to end users keep doing what you are doing and in a year or so you'll get your wish.

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 02, 2015, 06:51:28 am
What coming?

http://www.asmag.com/SMAhome/index_m.aspx?id=3245
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 02, 2015, 06:53:31 am
What's coming?
http://www.asmag.com/SMAhome/index_m.aspx?id=3245
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 02, 2015, 07:47:26 am
What's coming?
http://www.asmag.com/SMAhome/index_m.aspx?id=3245 (http://www.asmag.com/SMAhome/index_m.aspx?id=3245)

I think the subscription based services are a good move, one that I hope brings more attention/revenue to the development division....
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 02, 2015, 10:23:42 am
What's coming?
http://www.asmag.com/SMAhome/index_m.aspx?id=3245

See? This just gives me heartburn. We've complaining for years about the lack of multiple radio support. About having fine grained user control access to devices (I'm assuming that's what the "Secure" model will address, but I could be wrong). We've been complaining and pleading for years about stuff. And the company doesn't even throw us *any* information.

Oh, and when they say shipping 2nd quarter of 2015... you can pretty much guess that means 2016, based on past performance of delivering *anything* on their promised dates.  ;)

You can only lie/break promises to your users so many times before you lose all credibility.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 02, 2015, 10:42:13 am
@TC1

I work for a company that develops IT infrastructure hardware and know we typically will keep stuff close to the vest until it is close to being ready to ship. Typically, I would think that is common practice for a company to do something like that. It helps them keep somewhat of a competitive advantage.

After I say all of that, I then realize I am in a tough spot here where I am pretty frustrated with having just purchased a VeraEdge because I needed something that could handle all of the devices I have added over the years. I would have happily purchased the most expensive feature-rich model. Along with that, seeing the statements like multiple radio support for different technologies, etc... has me concerned as I see how poor the Insteon Fanlinc support is at this point. In the same vein as everyone has been complaining, Altsteon really made Vera work with Insteon, not the native implementation, which really speaks to the community boosting Vera's capabilities.

I am a member of DBStalk.com, and DirecTV is rather involved with the community there. They even have a beta tester group that will do a "first-look" write-up on new technology coming out from DirecTV. This really allows the community that is passionate about their technology to be closely involved with the company and provide very good feedback.

I think something like that would be a good idea for this forum, where a group that is part of the beta-testing works with Getvera and works on these first-looks and they get released in conjunction with Getvera's timelines to release info. It would seem like a win-win for everyone. I'll volunteer to be part of that group if this is something that Marc & Colin would be interested in implementing.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 02, 2015, 11:15:55 am
@TC1


I think something like that would be a good idea for this forum, where a group that is part of the beta-testing works with Getvera and works on these first-looks and they get released in conjunction with Getvera's timelines to release info. It would seem like a win-win for everyone. I'll volunteer to be part of that group if this is something that Marc & Colin would be interested in implementing.

This has been brought up before (search the forums), they're not interested. They think they know better. I'm also a veteran of the Technology/IT industry and know how to bring products to market on time and within budget. MCV clearly does not, not because I say so, but based on the hard evidence and their past performance. All of this is documentable.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 02, 2015, 12:07:18 pm
It's a new year... maybe a new resolution for Getvera?  ;D
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 02, 2015, 02:21:55 pm
It's a new year... maybe a new resolution for Getvera?  ;D

Yea but with the normal time frame of things...... Let just call it a 2016 resolution.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 02, 2015, 03:47:40 pm
My intent is not degrade this subject as It off the subject but has relevance to developers when the business model changes or was it to pass judgement either.  However, it should start here with the 2013 announcement. http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,13184.0.html
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 02, 2015, 03:58:47 pm
My intent is not degrade this subject as It off the subject but has relevance to developers when the business model changes or was it to pass judgement either.  However, it should start here with the 2013 announcement. http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,13184.0.html

That thread is pretty damaging to MCV, it's more documentation/evidence that these folks can't keep to any type of reasonable schedule, even ones they themselves submit.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: kigmatzomat on January 05, 2015, 08:12:21 am
How is it possible in this situation to think about vacation period ? !!


Developers need vacation time or they burn out. That means more bugs and less quality. Or worse, they leave and cause brain drain.

Of all the valid complaints there are, this is not one.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: kigmatzomat on January 05, 2015, 08:29:23 am
@BOFH, I'll forward your feedback to the right person. In the future if you could email it to me, that would best.

This right here, this is a problem. Bug reports should not be handled via personal email. Their is no logging, no reporting, no inherent process and nothing dealing with your vacations or role changes.

You folks need to look at other projects that have both developers & users, like Firefox or chrome.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on January 05, 2015, 12:11:23 pm
How is it possible in this situation to think about vacation period ? !!


Developers need vacation time or they burn out. That means more bugs and less quality. Or worse, they leave and cause brain drain.

Of all the valid complaints there are, this is not one.

Being a developer, I completely agree. However giving all your developers vacation at the same exact time is a bit too much, IMHO. It could be that having all developers gone for a period of time is unheard of in the US and where ever MCV is located it is SOP. I would still think, that during a time like this, when you have a product that was released with a firmware that could at best be considered BETA, you would not want all your developers on vacation.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 05, 2015, 12:30:31 pm
Being a developer, I completely agree. However giving all your developers vacation at the same exact time is a bit too much, IMHO. It could be that having all developers gone for a period of time is unheard of in the US and where ever MCV is located it is SOP. I would still think, that during a time like this, when you have a product that was released with a firmware that could at best be considered BETA, you would not want all your developers on vacation.

This is correct you schedule people accordingly not close down a whole department at a time. This is management 101 here in the USA.

Problem is I think don't think they have a department of developers. Talking to them on the phone and seeing how fast they update things. I really believe that they have like 1 or 2 guys doing the heavy development work. I mean some of the simple fixes that take weeks doesn't seem like that have a whole development team working 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 2 to 4 weeks to come up with a fix for adding usb support. And ofcourse before it came out no one stuck a usb stick in it and saw if it worked out of the whole team/department?

Seems like it's one guy sitting in that chair.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: skiz77 on January 05, 2015, 01:25:44 pm
Well this thread (and more specifically the response from GetVera) sent me over the "edge" (pun intended).  The one reason I chose Vera was the community and plugin developers and it's clear that they don't care anymore.  Most of the plugins I needed to work either don't work anymore or work poorly.  I would happily try to help fix my favorite plugins.  Not with this attitude.

Even more disconcerting - the basic functionality included also doesn't work and the documentation is just terrible.  Meanwhile, you hear of all the things they are forever working on.  Aspiring to be more when really they just need to start by fixing the issues they already have.

Just printed my return label.  Bye bye VeraEdge.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bigbasec on January 08, 2015, 12:47:25 pm
Just did the same thing.  Returning the Edge. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on January 08, 2015, 02:53:26 pm
I am keeping my edge, and I am willing to give MCV more time to get things right. I will give them credit for seeing this thread and reacting to it and setting up a person to interact with us here. I do have concerns that the person in question hasn't really been here that often, but I could just be missing those posts.

I have received my Stackbox a week or so ago, but it is no where near prime time. Smart things is going to be moving to Local Logic (instead of cloud logic). OpenHAB seems to be coming along and as soon as it has a nicer UI I may try that out. MCV has a long way to come and I hope that things start ramping up soon as I think they had some holiday time off (though I still find it crazy that all the developers were allowed to leave at the same time).

So, basically, for now I'm remaining optimistic. I haven't even plugged in my Edge because I know the issues it has and I'm not willing to deal with them. If I didn't get it for cheaper than normal price I never would have ordered it.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 08, 2015, 03:55:45 pm
I'm wondering if the absence is due to the ramp-up for the CES2015 having taken up a lot of everyone at GetVera's time.

As far as my plan B right now, I'm keeping a close eye on SmartThings and to a lesser extent on OpenHAB. I would really hat having to kill my FreeNAS N40L microserver to install a Linux flavor (which I am far less familiar with) to be able to run it. But it is still an option.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Mgsmith75 on January 08, 2015, 04:08:10 pm
I am keeping mine as well. It was a big step up from vera lite for me. They have been dropping a release monthly as well which have resolved almost all my issues to date, most critical ones for sure. There are some lingering issues, I don't have alarm setup yet so the USB to serial isn't a issue I am dealing with I am sure for those with alarm must be a deal breaker. Most of the plug in work now, I am hoping and expecting within the next 2 months things should be no worse than UI5, if that means anything :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 08, 2015, 05:43:06 pm
I have received my Stackbox a week or so ago, but it is no where near prime time. Smart things is going to be moving to Local Logic (instead of cloud logic). OpenHAB seems to be coming along and as soon as it has a nicer UI I may try that out.

What are your thoughts on HomeSeer? I don't see it on your list and I'm in the trail stage. I would like to get all of its faults pointed out without me going to far.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 08, 2015, 08:56:16 pm
I'll most likely be switching over to OpenHAB. Working on temporary integration of my ISY controller. In other words not a native plugin, but code written in node.js that connects to the ISY controller and posts the events (status) via mqtt and act on commands via mqtt as well. So far looks pretty promising with what I have so far.


- Garrett
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 08, 2015, 08:56:47 pm
I'll most likely be switching over to OpenHAB. Working on temporary integration of my ISY controller. In other words not a native plugin, but code written in node.js that connects to the ISY controller and posts the events (status) via mqtt and act on commands via mqtt as well. So far looks pretty promising with what I have so far.


- Garrett
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 08, 2015, 10:33:12 pm
Garrett, does that mean AuthomationHD development will cease?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 08, 2015, 10:47:54 pm
Garrett, does that mean AuthomationHD development will cease?

No, we won't let him.  ;D
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bigbasec on January 09, 2015, 02:21:31 am
I have officially switched all my zwave gear over to openHAB.. powered down the Veralite tonight.  Also sent the Edge back today.  I'm done.  I've had a support case open w/ them for weeks, nothing, not even a reply to my emails(and I copied Marc and all them).   It's one thing to put out a non-functioning product, it's another to just flat out ignore customers.  Couldn't be happier that things just do what I expect them to do.  I was pretty happy w/ my Lite, it did a ton for me, but this whole mess w/ the Edge has really bugged me. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on January 13, 2015, 09:31:32 am
I have received my Stackbox a week or so ago, but it is no where near prime time. Smart things is going to be moving to Local Logic (instead of cloud logic). OpenHAB seems to be coming along and as soon as it has a nicer UI I may try that out.

What are your thoughts on HomeSeer? I don't see it on your list and I'm in the trail stage. I would like to get all of its faults pointed out without me going to far.

Sorry @integlikewhoa, I just remembered to respond to this. To be honest, I haven't looked into HomeSeer yet. I've been closely following your trial and am curious where you end up. At this point, I'm not sure I could put that amount of money into a new controller. I know, I know, it's a small fraction of the total cost, but we just found out we are expecting another and my Wife (with my support) wants to quit her job and take a year off with the baby then start a new career. So, though I would not say we will be poor, we will be missing about $40k/year in income. For this reason, it would be a very tough sale to go into a costly system like HS. However, if it is where it needs to be, I could probably get the money (do some side jobs).

I'm very interested in the OpenHab/Vera combination. Seems like a great way to use the Vera's Hardware (and antenna hack) with potentially a much more robust system. My only issue currently is that I spend 8-16 hours a day programming, and while I love it, I don't need an overly complicated system to set up as I also value my family time. As odd as it is, Vera is much easier to set up (slowly over time) even when I consider my complex Pleg setup.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 15, 2015, 06:30:25 am
I have experienced the exactly same mess when the change from UI4 to UI5 was happening, it's all documented in this forum. The greatest achievement Vera Control Ltd. has made during 2014 is to change their name, everything else was a mess. When UI5 was arriving they made the exact same promises as in this thread, they did not keep a single one.

I just can't not believe how ignorant and incompetent the cooperation with the (free working) developpers is handled by Vera Control Ltd.

I am basically gone, I just can't handle this anymore, especially not for free. But I have not decided for an alternative yet. There will be no more updates to my plugins.

I am downright ashamed for having recommended Vera to my dad and friends.  :-[

This is sad  :'(
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 15, 2015, 11:03:57 am
I have experienced the exactly same mess when the change from UI4 to UI5 was happening, it's all documented in this forum. The greatest achievement Vera Control Ltd. has made during 2014 is to change their name, everything else was a mess. When UI5 was arriving they made the exact same promises as in this thread, they did not keep a single one.

I just can't not believe how ignorant and incompetent the cooperation with the (free working) developpers is handled by Vera Control Ltd.

I am basically gone, I just can't handle this anymore, especially not for free. But I have not decided for an alternative yet. There will be no more updates to my plugins.

I am downright ashamed for having recommended Vera to my dad and friends.  :-[

This is sad  :'(

Im sorry to see you go @chixxi.

But your post reminded me of something the wise people in my life have always said: Actions speak louder than words. Talk is cheap.

From what I've seen in the forums since I've been here, MCV management always talks a good game, but they rarely deliver. As chixxi said, all the evidence one needs is in these forums.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on January 15, 2015, 11:04:48 am
@chixxi

Sad indeed. 

I agree that the hard decision is what next.  I'm looking at a Beaglebone Black running Lua so that I can continue using that language and port some of my applications.  OpenHab seems to be a tough learning curve and Java a step backwards.

Good luck and thanks for all your contributions here.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 15, 2015, 12:20:08 pm
I am tasked with keeping up with what is going on here in forums especially amongst the developer community and I haven't been doing a good enough job lately. I lost a family member last month and as a result I took my eye off the ball. I am back 100% and am refocusing on what is being said in the forums and what you need.

Prior to CES we had a company strategy meeting that I was a part of. It was reiterated to all of us in that meeting that the development community is very important to us. That is why Colin has made part of my job to help you cut through the ether but I need you to help me help you, I can't read every post. If you have a problem and you don't feel that we are being responsive, email, call me, message me... my job is to help you.

With that said, there is a senior management meeting next week; tell me what is causing you pain and frustration and what you need from us to fix it and will present it to them and get it prioritized.

I am here to help you. I will jump in in the forums but if you are getting aggravated by something and I don't pick up on it, please contact me and I will figure out who has or can provide you what you need and get it for you.

Again, please forgive my absence, I wish the circumstances had been different.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Vodden on January 15, 2015, 01:22:56 pm
@Marc Shenker

I've been following this post from the start but haven't bothered to chime in until I read a few other posts regarding OpenHAB and how it seems that the 'power users' of Vera are starting to focus their attention towards this other HA platform. 

Frankly, it scares me to see that members like @RichardTSchaefer, @guessed, @RexBeckett and @garretwp are in essence throwing in the towel on Vera and looking elsewhere.  Between these 4 users, they have a combined total of nearly 20,000 posts on MCV forums.  They are also the authors of countless apps that have made Vera an unbelievably versatile HA platform, all the while facilitating countless hours of support. 

I also understand that these users are likely the upper 5% of the users that have Vera today and may not represent the masses when it comes to what people are looking for out of your controller, but they are the trailblazers of the community, and because of what they have brought to the table in terms of knowledge, experience, etc., the bar is being raised every day as to what is being expected out of Vera.  If you were to ask me a year ago what I intended for my final build, it is a speck compared to what I am currently building, and it is because of people like this that have sunk heart and soul into this and made it easier for the lay person to follow suit, and provide countless hours of selfless support to help us out with our problems.  It would be tragic to lose this as a user and as a vendor.

Speaking entirely from my perspective, I think what the community here really wants is for Vera to align with their wants and needs.  I think that Vera falls short on many facets; one of which is communication, which seems to be now better addressed with you coming into the fold.  But what about more powerful hardware?  That need seems to resonate throughout the forum, and it seems that nobody is listening.  The same goes with Vera support and a thorough UI development and deployment strategy.  Here are users with a completely maxed out Vera 3 that is so well set up it walks the dog for them, all of which are running the only truly stable UI for Vera that isn't even supported any longer ???.  All to find out that the newest hardware offering is only slightly more powerful than a VeraLite and cannot run UI5.   

I sincerely hope that management at Vera understands what is at stake here by ignoring members who are quite frankly integral to the strength of the community and the success of your product.  Lets hope that their voices are heard...
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 15, 2015, 03:20:06 pm
I sincerely hope that management at Vera understands what is at stake here by ignoring members who are quite frankly integral to the strength of the community and the success of your product.  Lets hope that their voices are heard...

@Vodden Rest assured that the gravity surrounding our level of community participation is quite clear. This was a major point of discussion at our strat planning meetings at CES this past week. We'll be making some more formal announcements this month surrounding the additions, changes, and improvements that are the outcome of those meetings. This is being addressed, at all levels.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: infromatica on January 15, 2015, 06:09:09 pm
Has a newcomer to this platform i really hope you put your money where your mouth is.
I head great things about Vera but I've since nothing until now on my new Vera Edge With Forced UI5 :-\
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: kkl on January 15, 2015, 07:03:47 pm
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 15, 2015, 08:05:11 pm
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: gregl on January 15, 2015, 08:56:30 pm
The fact that no developers have taken up the offer could well be an indication that you have already lost the developers....too little too late... ???

If i was Vera , i would have ( on the day you made the offer..actually i would have done this well before releasing the VeraEdge under an NDA) contacted directly all the key developers asking them to directly for their permission to Fedex them a VeraEdge overnight.

I would also have organised with these key developers an urgent Webex session/s where they can talk directly to you ,Marc, Lew etc.
You could have shown them what's coming - roadmaps etc.
You could have discussed with them what issue tracking system they would prefer to use
You could have discussed their immediate needs - documentation, direct contact channels etc.
You could have offered them preproduction versions of VeraPro/Secure ( assuming they actually exist)
You could have directly spoken to them....

You could have shown them more love than a few posts in this forum....saying what your going to do and "watch this space/more to follow".....


I think you need to act a whole lot faster than this month!

To be honest i thought all of this WAS going on over the past month...just us "non developer" users not being informed..seems not  :'(


I too am looking into OpenHab for my future needs...it will take me some months to move over, so I hope Vera gets its sh*t together and i dont need to move.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 15, 2015, 09:28:08 pm
The fact that no developers have taken up the offer could well be an indication that you have already lost the developers....too little too late... ???

Your might be correct or just assuming to much. Details of that email may show that the 150.00 Vera EDGE (if that was what was really offered) required to much ink to sign on the dotted line for it. I don't believe what was really involved (full details) were posted. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on January 15, 2015, 09:28:22 pm
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

@ Colin

1.  No email received from you to respond to.
2. My email to Marc asking about a dev box  - responded to on 1/5 by Marc  basically said:  'I'll ask Colin'
3. No follow up as of today.

So what's the story ?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: amg0 on January 16, 2015, 02:17:53 am
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

I moved my veralite to UI7 because that was the only way for me to test my plugin to UI7 and thus :
- I cannot test anymore on UI5. 
- I cannot test the deployment from the store because the account/credential is not the same & the store is not UI7 compatible,
- I cannot control the look & feel of plugin becasue UI7 json positioning code is not final and specifications inexistant on dashboard control placement, 
- I cannot  test code because the test code box in UI7 "returns true" fails ( and memory situation prevent me from adding new plugin or luatest page ) ,
- I cannot control my house remotely, the UI7 mobile app does not work well at all - it takes ages to connect and when I close some window covers it closes them but does not reflect status properly etc....   

in fact , becasue I am a plugin developper, I get an even worse experience in my day to day use of the solution, just because I am a developper and had  to move to UI7 to dev & test my plugin to help this solution be more marketable & competitive.   I would not have all these problems if I had stayed on UI5 but I would not have been able to update my plugin otherwise.

simply not a fair deal.

I would like to go back to UI5 and have a UI7 DEV box (EU version please ! ) for the time until UI7 becomes industrial & useable on a long term fashion.

I should say that some great individual in MCV (like andrei ) gave me good individual support so thx to them
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 16, 2015, 06:49:56 am
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.

I've known from past experience that I'll believe it when I see it too many broken promises, beta testers not being used to their full potential, and bugs / issues left being not fixed for a long period of time.

With quite a few of the long time developers / supporters in this community looking else where, you have a lot to loose.  You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.

- Garrett

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 16, 2015, 07:02:20 am
All,

This is an incredibly, incredibly off-putting thread to read. The general level of animosity, discontent, and negativism expressed here is beyond disheartening.

futzle & garrettwp you are spot on? This should be fun! If it isn?t, something is quite obviously wrong.

Again, I?m not sure how, or where, this overwhelmingly venomous sentiment comes from here. Quite honestly, it?s part of reason I?ve spent as little time as I have in the forums over the last 3 years, as most of what I read here is contentious at best.

bucko, it?s not about having ?balls,? I?m just not interested in participating in the drama. No one on the MiOS/Vera side is looking to engage in a ?public argument,? as futzle proffers. Quite the opposite really. We love this stuff! Just like you guys do.

SNIP.

I think this pretty much say's it all in my opinion.

It's an example IMHO, of just how out of touch this company is with it's user base.  If you can't understand the reasons why many are mad, even furious then you have taken your eye off the ball loooong loooong ago.


Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 16, 2015, 07:16:45 am
I should add, it doesn't appear that its just the Plug-in Devs or even the "Power Users" that are unhappy with the direction Vera Control Lts is going. just take a look at the reviews on Amazon.. (2.3 rating for the Edge...) (which for some reason seem ridiculously hard to find on Amazon)

 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 16, 2015, 07:34:45 am
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.
I do not see my self as one of the key-developers like garret or richard, but I never got this eMail either. From other companies I get free devices without having to ask, even before they hit the market just for saying "I might develop something".

You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.
There was more than one, in my opinion (i.e @Ap15e (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,10469.0.html) and @chris)

I didn't stop to work on my plugins to put pressure on Vera Ltd., my plugins are not important enough for that. But I just don't see a future with vera, so from where should I take the motivation. As you can see we were already raging almost 3 years ahead of today, Micasverde ingored us so long why should I believe in you now?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RexBeckett on January 16, 2015, 07:49:48 am
I didn't get an email either. My ten plugins are not, perhaps, major enablers for Vera but I would like to think some of my guides have been useful to newcomers.

If Garrett doesn't qualify as an MCV-recognized developer, I wonder what the criteria can be.
 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: guessed on January 16, 2015, 11:44:38 am
Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

As stated at the top of this thread I responded privately to the Developer Email, and resisted posting to this thread.  Out of courtesy, my response was sent to the "original author" of the Developer email, CC your CTO, and was given within 1-2 hrs of the email's original receipt.

No response so far.

Hardware, whilst problematic for some, isn't the Primary issue at stake here.  As outlined in that email, there are serious issues including (but not limited to) a few key areas I discussed face-to-face with both your CTO & President about 3 yrs ago, c. UI5 rollout.

To quote a small section of it:

Quote from: guessed
... backward compatibility, stability of the platform and overall communications are the key items to retaining Developers on the platform

If you're not providing these core Product deliverables then I don't think it's reasonable to waste the time of community members with expectations of what, when or if volunteer members will deliver anything atop the stack.

Many developers are now well beyond the throw hardware at them solutions used c. 4-6yrs ago - especially when the new platforms offer no material benefit to a developer-scale deployment... frequently a leading indicator of what the wider community will benefit from. 

Also, throwing hardware into a void with no publicised plan, obvious functional regressions and then not responding to issues & questions raised is unlikely to net you the result you're looking for.

So far all we've seen here are words (sometimes impassioned words) but you're only going to get credibility for things delivered and not for things said and, at this time, the only thing we have to judge by is the overall release of UI6 & UI7 (more significant regressions than even UI5, poor communications, vague demands made upon your community to make up for issues in the stack & delivery process)

I look forward to seeing the remedial action list that you develop but, for some, it'll be too little too late.


BTW: If you want a sense for what's been discussed in the past, find the [private] Beta thread entitled "Latest on Vera Pro" c. Jan 2011.  I'll quote a tiny part of that thread, where many of the senior forum members discussed requirements:

b) Go overboard on memory. 32M isn't enough, 128M isn't enough...
I'd like enough memory to never have to run into that as a "reason" one or more of my current/future devices don't work correctly, and enough that Linux has "so much headroom" for memory leaks that we'll never see them in reality.

It's going to be more about the memory size of the Plugins, than the devices themselves, but anything wanting to be "fast" will likely pull a bunch of stuff into memory in order to operate locally, without hitting the Network all the time.

I'd also like to be able to run like my Alarm, I haven't "restarted" it in over 18 months and it's run continuously available during that time.

and shortly thereafter:
Quote from: guessed
Ultimately, if the box really doesn't handle what we all need, then people will vote with their feet.... and it's always possible for us to write "the last plugin" that integrates the ZWave bits, managed by Vera, into some larger and/or more capable HA Device.


It's 2015, 4yrs later, and the next next-generation platform is still at 128M... and the issues are piling up, and we're doing exactly what I said we'd do.  These requirements have certainly been discussed before, and there's clearly been adequate notice.... and this is just on the HW side of things.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on January 16, 2015, 12:25:53 pm
First give. me a minute to get my foot out of my mouth......

Ok, now I must apologize for my over zealous remark I made after MCV announced Dev support, appointment of MCV spokesman in this forum, etc.etc. Looks like "duped again" applies here.

MCV, you just keep bending your customers over and over. Shame on you deceiving people directly on this very forum.

I am surprised that after your promises made, we learn devs have not been contacted at all. I call BS on the wait until next month after we had our CES meetings. Load of crap I'm afraid. MCV really does not get it. Looks like to me Vera is a sinking ship and it's time to bail.

I looks like at this point, OpenHab may be worth the effort to look into. Shame on you MCV!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 01:28:24 pm
In addition, all active participatory development partners should have current hardware/software to develop and test on. I?ve made the offer privately to various devs over the past couple years but I?ll make it a little more formal since this seems to still be a sticking point based on this thread. I?ll send out and email to the group this afternoon. Respond with your ship to addresses and phone number and I?ll get a VeraEdge dispatched to you early next week.

This would be an indicator of Vera's seriousness, or lack thereof.  Has any developer received the VeraEdge promised one month ago?

Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.

I've known from past experience that I'll believe it when I see it too many broken promises, beta testers not being used to their full potential, and bugs / issues left being not fixed for a long period of time.

With quite a few of the long time developers / supporters in this community looking else where, you have a lot to loose.  You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.

- Garrett

@ Garrett we hear you guys loud and clear. You're a critical piece of the puzzle and we've clearly done a piss poor job of communicating and supporting you guys of late. I'm not going to over promise and under deliver; it is not going to be an "instant" fix, but we are committed and focused to getting this addressed, quickly.

Regarding dev samples, you were on that distribution list, so you should have received that email last month. I'll resend via MailChimp this afternoon so I've got delivery confirmation for each of you and can accurately track this moving forward. Shoot me your ship to address via email and I'll get yours shipped out today.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 01:49:29 pm
Sadly, I've yet to receive one single response to that email thus far. Offer stands (in the interim), but we're going to wrap that into a more formal program this month. More to follow.

As stated at the top of this thread I responded privately to the Developer Email, and resisted posting to this thread.  Out of courtesy, my response was sent to the "original author" of the Developer email, CC your CTO, and was given within 1-2 hrs of the email's original receipt.

No response so far.

Hardware, whilst problematic for some, isn't the Primary issue at stake here.  As outlined in that email, there are serious issues including (but not limited to) a few key areas I discussed face-to-face with both your CTO & President about 3 yrs ago, c. UI5 rollout.

To quote a small section of it:

Quote from: guessed
... backward compatibility, stability of the platform and overall communications are the key items to retaining Developers on the platform

If you're not providing these core Product deliverables then I don't think it's reasonable to waste the time of community members with expectations of what, when or if volunteer members will deliver anything atop the stack.

Many developers are now well beyond the throw hardware at them solutions used c. 4-6yrs ago - especially when the new platforms offer no material benefit to a developer-scale deployment... frequently a leading indicator of what the wider community will benefit from. 

Also, throwing hardware into a void with no publicised plan, obvious functional regressions and then not responding to issues & questions raised is unlikely to net you the result you're looking for.

So far all we've seen here are words (sometimes impassioned words) but you're only going to get credibility for things delivered and not for things said and, at this time, the only thing we have to judge by is the overall release of UI6 & UI7 (more significant regressions than even UI5, poor communications, vague demands made upon your community to make up for issues in the stack & delivery process)

I look forward to seeing the remedial action list that you develop but, for some, it'll be too little too late.


BTW: If you want a sense for what's been discussed in the past, find the [private] Beta thread entitled "Latest on Vera Pro" c. Jan 2011.  I'll quote a tiny part of that thread, where many of the senior forum members discussed requirements:

b) Go overboard on memory. 32M isn't enough, 128M isn't enough...
I'd like enough memory to never have to run into that as a "reason" one or more of my current/future devices don't work correctly, and enough that Linux has "so much headroom" for memory leaks that we'll never see them in reality.

It's going to be more about the memory size of the Plugins, than the devices themselves, but anything wanting to be "fast" will likely pull a bunch of stuff into memory in order to operate locally, without hitting the Network all the time.

I'd also like to be able to run like my Alarm, I haven't "restarted" it in over 18 months and it's run continuously available during that time.

and shortly thereafter:
Quote from: guessed
Ultimately, if the box really doesn't handle what we all need, then people will vote with their feet.... and it's always possible for us to write "the last plugin" that integrates the ZWave bits, managed by Vera, into some larger and/or more capable HA Device.


It's 2015, 4yrs later, and the next next-generation platform is still at 128M... and the issues are piling up, and we're doing exactly what I said we'd do.  These requirements have certainly been discussed before, and there's clearly been adequate notice.... and this is just on the HW side of things.

@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RichardTSchaefer on January 16, 2015, 02:14:37 pm
I don't want hardware ... I want the reported bugs fixed.
After all of these years you still do not have a defect tracking system that the user community can enter/track and see progress or lack there of.

Note: I also did not receive the email. Maybe it still in the out box.

Many things have been addressed by my emails.
But I have no feedback on others. And even a regression on a previous fix in the last release.

What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 02:28:03 pm
I didn't receive any email regarding a VeraEdge either. I just assumed that although Vera wanted my plug-ins to be ported to UI7, that my overall contributions were not considered sufficient for me to receive a free development platform on which to do so. At my normal billable  rates, I'd estimate I've made at least a $25,000 (USD) investment of my time in Vera, but I guess that's not enough to for Vera to invest the ~$150 (probably much less, at cost) it would take to send me a UI7 device. (Of course, I might also just be on the s**t list for starting this thread :)

Anyway, at this point I'm not particularly worried. Given the previous discussion, its starting to make more sense to put in the effort to port my plug-ins to OpenHAB, rather than UI7. At the very least, I have multiple OpenHAB capable devices, as opposed to my one Vera UI[5-7] capable device.

Hugh

Ha! You're hardly on the s**t list @Hugh. Quite the contrary. We're not adverse to challenging or vigorous discourse, at all. As I've said, more than once, the reason that we all get so riled up is that we are passionate and we care. That's a great "problem" to have, collectively. Looking forward to having you as part of the Client Advisory Board too Hugh.

Same message as to @Garrett, shoot me you ship to address this morning and I'll get your controller sent out today. No sweat.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 16, 2015, 02:28:17 pm
I don't want hardware ... I want the reported bugs fixed.
After all of these years you still do not have a defect tracking system that the user community can enter/track and see progress or lack there of.

Note: I also did not receive the email. Maybe it still in the out box.

Many things have been addressed by my emails.
But I have no feedback on others. And even a regression on a previous fix in the last release.

What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.
Could not have said it better.

- Garrett

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 16, 2015, 02:33:05 pm
Yeah, Telguard sent me a beta of their GDO device to test based a question on compatibility and on my work on adding Craftsman support to the MyQ plugin but AFAIK no one in that MyQ group got the email either. That plugin is a shining example of the kind of effort this community can generate and produce a valuable plugin. Macrho started it, with assistance from at least guessed. I added Craftsman support to it and then provided info to Kornev and JoeyD on gate openers and lights when they reworked the logic to make it more stable and added a user friendly configuration interface.

Image what other projects could materialize with a little support from GetVera?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: guessed on January 16, 2015, 02:53:41 pm
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 16, 2015, 03:12:11 pm
The user community here is fantastic and what keeps me still using the product but I am actively seeking another option, perhaps openHAB as others are looking towards. When I had my new garage door openers installed, I went and purchased the MyQ hardware and decided to try my hand at programming for my Vera. The community support was fantastic, @guessed and others shared programming tips and critiques of what I was trying to write. It was fantastic! I was learning..  Rewind a few months, before I even started trying to develop a plugin: I was experiencing restarts of the LUA engine. I had a case open with support to see if they could help find out what the issue was. I would go weeks without an answer from support though I would keep checking in week after week.   The usual suspects were what most everyone heard from support: other plugins causing the issues.  I kept plugging away, thinking it was perhaps my code that was causing the restarts but given 20+ restarts a day, I couldn't adequately attempt to develop my plugin any further -- I gave up. When working with tech support, I basically had removed all the great plugins I love and use: PLEG, NetAtmo, day/night, XBMC, etc. Fast forward a few weeks and I find a post from @garrettwp that says he found out the issue for his restarts were due to having a Plex server and it was flooding Vera with DLNA requests. Sure enough, that fixed my restarts. So, I wrote an email to support about the issue and then wandered over to the GetVera site and found a page "About Us" that listed all the senior management, along with their emails (oddly, that page no longer exists). I crafted an email to them (including colin, lew and aaron) and heard absolutely nothing back. Passionate users trying to bring their thoughts to the company and then hearing a deafening silence kind of makes one not so interested anymore.. If things went well, perhaps the Vera support team could have figured out the issue that was causing all my restarts and I might have spent even more of my own free time helping to make your product better. I guess as folks have said above, action, not words are needed.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 03:44:08 pm
What's driving me to other platforms is more compute resources. What's driving me from Vera is quality of the software releases and a lack of a trend of overall quality improvement.

@Richard as per usual... succinct and spot on! Thank you. Comments like this are like health food; they may not taste good, but they are good for you.

The lack of external transparency and visibility is an issue, across the board. Not just on bug reporting, but also new features, device and partner integration, etc. We're already underway on some web projects to help surface this information more clearly, as well as expanded documentation. Further, we've got to do a much better job of closing the feedback loop, so we're not burning cycles needlessly on either side.

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 05:43:51 pm
As a developer, veteran of this forum and a long time Vera user I never received such an email. Maybe I don't meet the requirements of this list and how you guys picked to email, but I have a feeling it not covered the right people.
I do not see my self as one of the key-developers like garret or richard, but I never got this eMail either. From other companies I get free devices without having to ask, even before they hit the market just for saying "I might develop something".

You lost one in the past for these very same reasons and it has showed and still does from time to time. I wonder if anyone can guess who that may be.
There was more than one, in my opinion (i.e @Ap15e (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,10469.0.html) and @chris)

I didn't stop to work on my plugins to put pressure on Vera Ltd., my plugins are not important enough for that. But I just don't see a future with vera, so from where should I take the motivation. As you can see we were already raging almost 3 years ahead of today, Micasverde ingored us so long why should I believe in you now?

@CHIXXI Of course you didn't. You just got fed up. Which, based on the circumstance is totally understandable. Moreover, your plugins are that important. You and your participation are that important!

Based on our track record CHIXXI, you shouldn't believe us. I'll own that. We deserve it!

I'm nothing if not pragmatic (some days, to a fault). I've willing stepped into a very, very challenge situation here. It will not be a quick fix. It will not be without significant effort. At all levels within the organization. But it will happen.

If you can email me your ship to address in the next 90 min our so, I'll have your controller ship out today. It's a small step, but it's a start towards reestablishing trust.

Onward...
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 06:35:27 pm
So, I wrote an email to support about the issue and then wandered over to the GetVera site and found a page "About Us" that listed all the senior management, along with their emails (oddly, that page no longer exists). I crafted an email to them (including colin, lew and aaron) and heard absolutely nothing back. Passionate users trying to bring their thoughts to the company and then hearing a deafening silence kind of makes one not so interested anymore..

@MACRHO My apologies. I don't see/have anything from you. When did you send this email? Was it sent from the same address you use here on the forums? Would you be willing to resend, please?

The whole reason we have that About Us/Team page up (http://getvera.com/about-us/team/ (http://getvera.com/about-us/team/)), including our personal email addresses, is to encourage open communication with our end users.

Again, sorry this seems to have gotten lost in translation somewhere, but I'd love to reengage with you if you're willing to resend.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 16, 2015, 07:03:36 pm
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)
@Guessed Agreed, this is hardly the most pressing matter for any of us, but... the printed specs on the G450 and G550 were very much preliminary and intentionally understated (based on delta to release date). We're in the final stages of our our own internal analysis surrounding the memory requirements (based on our existing Vera deployments, as well as working w/ our major OEM customers on the MiOS side), but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 16, 2015, 07:32:47 pm
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)
@Guessed Agreed, this is hardly the most pressing matter for any of us, but... the printed specs on the G450 and G550 were very much preliminary and intentionally understated (based on delta to release date). We're in the final stages of our our own internal analysis surrounding the memory requirements (based on our existing Vera deployments, as well as working w/ our major OEM customers on the MiOS side), but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.
At a minimum for a pro device, it would need to be 512mb ram. However it's not uncommon to see embedded device like the Raspberry Pi, Odroid C2, BeagleBone Black with that amount or even more. If history has shown us anything, we are seeing many users run into memory issues due to having plugins that add up over time.

- Garrett

Title: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 16, 2015, 07:45:15 pm
There are two major configuration changes which have dramatically affected Vera, RAM and the OS. 

However, in more recent times, the never more complex desires of the have lead to more resource heavily application and the open platform that Vera presents, have lead to more complex integrated system and the current RAM ceiling has limited or adversely affected the capability.

I agree with Garrett with this should be and absolute minimum threshold for RAM, but it will potentially even in the near future with the conditional logic the end users desire.

There is no doubt the market exists; however, what is the threshold/cost per unit they are willing to accept in the marketing question. Hence, at the chance of igniting the fire a little more; this is why even old tech companies are turning to Kickstarter and alike to secure the investment and commitment with high exposure upfront...

Edit: interrupted to take kids on a ride. Daddy duties must come first.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 16, 2015, 08:50:29 pm
@MACRHO My apologies. I don't see/have anything from you. When did you send this email? Was it sent from the same address you use here on the forums? Would you be willing to resend, please?

The whole reason we have that About Us/Team page up (http://getvera.com/about-us/team/ (http://getvera.com/about-us/team/)), including our personal email addresses, is to encourage open communication with our end users.

Again, sorry this seems to have gotten lost in translation somewhere, but I'd love to reengage with you if you're willing to resend.

No problem, I just re-sent it though my forum email address is different. Happy to reengage
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 16, 2015, 11:58:56 pm
A very simple question. 
How do we log bugs as of now? It is simply not clear with UI7.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 17, 2015, 07:24:32 am
A very simple question. 
How do we log bugs as of now? It is simply not clear with UI7.

@Brientim
For the time being you can either fill out a support ticket at http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/emails/new or email me directly.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 17, 2015, 05:03:03 pm
Marc and Colin.  When should we anticipate a real solution.  This is problematic and even Mantis would be better than email chains... That of course if they are received and responded too. As an example, I gave up on testing UI7 beta for this reason as I sent emails that were not responded too, then I logged ticket which were closed because it a support issue.

In addition, I have recently emailed you both about a few subjects; I wasn't after a response but expected some actions on the forum, neither happened. People getting a ton of emails, just is ineffective especially for Service Management.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 18, 2015, 08:56:38 am
Marc and Colin.  When should we anticipate a real solution.  This is problematic and even Mantis would be better than email chains... That of course if they are received and responded too. As an example, I gave up on testing UI7 beta for this reason as I sent emails that were not responded too, then I logged ticket which were closed because it a support issue.

In addition, I have recently emailed you both about a few subjects; I wasn't after a response but expected some actions on the forum, neither happened. People getting a ton of emails, just is ineffective especially for Service Management.

You are right. Email is far from ideal, we are working on a better solution but for the time being email them to me and CC anyone else you think is appropriate.

Regarding your recent emails, I never received them. Could you check that my email address was correct and resend it?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Brientim on January 18, 2015, 09:18:29 am
Marc, the email address was correct and one of the emails had a corresponding PM dated 20 Dec. no use resending as this was a moment in time thing.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 18, 2015, 09:20:46 am
Marc and Colin.  When should we anticipate a real solution.  This is problematic and even Mantis would be better than email chains... That of course if they are received and responded too. As an example, I gave up on testing UI7 beta for this reason as I sent emails that were not responded too, then I logged ticket which were closed because it a support issue.

In addition, I have recently emailed you both about a few subjects; I wasn't after a response but expected some actions on the forum, neither happened. People getting a ton of emails, just is ineffective especially for Service Management.

You are right. Email is far from ideal, we are working on a better solution but for the time being email them to me and CC anyone else you think is appropriate.

Regarding your recent emails, I never received them. Could you check that my email address was correct and resend it?

Is everyone thinking the same thing here... ;-)

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: wseverino on January 18, 2015, 10:48:45 am
Marc and Colin.  When should we anticipate a real solution.  This is problematic and even Mantis would be better than email chains... That of course if they are received and responded too. As an example, I gave up on testing UI7 beta for this reason as I sent emails that were not responded too, then I logged ticket which were closed because it a support issue.

In addition, I have recently emailed you both about a few subjects; I wasn't after a response but expected some actions on the forum, neither happened. People getting a ton of emails, just is ineffective especially for Service Management.

You are right. Email is far from ideal, we are working on a better solution but for the time being email them to me and CC anyone else you think is appropriate.

Regarding your recent emails, I never received them. Could you check that my email address was correct and resend it?

Marc - One software product to look at for technical questions and bugs would be ZenDesk.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mikewooduk on January 18, 2015, 12:37:43 pm
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)
@Guessed Agreed, this is hardly the most pressing matter for any of us, but... the printed specs on the G450 and G550 were very much preliminary and intentionally understated (based on delta to release date). We're in the final stages of our our own internal analysis surrounding the memory requirements (based on our existing Vera deployments, as well as working w/ our major OEM customers on the MiOS side), but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.
At a minimum for a pro device, it would need to be 512mb ram. However it's not uncommon to see embedded device like the Raspberry Pi, Odroid C2, BeagleBone Black with that amount or even more. If history has shown us anything, we are seeing many users run into memory issues due to having plugins that add up over time.

- Garrett

Garrett,

I to strongly feel that the ram should be upgraded in any future models, but why limited to 512mb of RAM, its just as cheap to obtain 1GB and 2GB modules these days as there is not very much demand for 512mb modules these days.

Would love to see any future Vera's fly.

Regards,

Mike
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mikewooduk on January 18, 2015, 12:47:39 pm
Quote from: Colin Burke McClure
@Guessed I look forward to your continued candor, directly, as a member of the Client Advisory Board this coming month. I think you'll be quite interested in the two new next gen controllers and how they'll address many of your HW concerns/limitations, as compared to the entry level VeraEdge/G150. The flagship VeraSecure/G550 chassis should be very much aligned with what you guys have requested, performance wise.

I was at CES, and read the spec sheet for all 3 new models.  Unfortunately, unless that spec sheet is grossly incorrect on the memory, it's just not worth the effort to keep things working there.

And, as stated repeatedly throughout this thread, that's not even the primary issue (even as hot as it might be)
@Guessed Agreed, this is hardly the most pressing matter for any of us, but... the printed specs on the G450 and G550 were very much preliminary and intentionally understated (based on delta to release date). We're in the final stages of our our own internal analysis surrounding the memory requirements (based on our existing Vera deployments, as well as working w/ our major OEM customers on the MiOS side), but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.

@Colin
I have been using Vera models for a couple of years now, and one thing that has always been a bug bear has been the amount of RAM supplied in each model.

Now I am not a developer but I am running three different Vera Models in different locations and about to add a forth.  With each of these models it has always been an issue with the amount of on board memory, if going forward the base model was to have 1GB of memory, I think a lot of the people who use Vera would not have to worry about adding USB sticks for the logging and I am sure that the performance would be increased.  Id happily pay for the extra memory!!

Another thing I would love to see would be the option to have an external aerial port rather than worry about the internal aerial that can be quite poor.  You just need to look at the amount of suppliers out there that are supply Z-Wave extenders as well as your own community coming up with aerial adapters for the Vera 3.

Now that Vera Edge has been released can we see a pro version?

One last thing how about a slightly different box rather than using something that looks like its a Thomson Speedtouch Router reject from about 8 years ago??

I do thank you for taking your time to visit the forums and speak to us all, and no doubt hopefully this will be a new front being taken by the Vera team.

I know you think a lot of us only use these devices at home, but I am using them in the office and small server rooms for monitoring.

Regards,

Mike
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 19, 2015, 12:51:25 pm
Quick follow up on this thread and dev samples status. I know that Marc got quite a few units shipped out late last week, but there are still many developers that have yet to respond. In order to expedite, simplify, and track the process we've loaded all the current development partners into a MailChimp list.

You can use the link below provide/update your ship to address (and phone) directly.

http://eepurl.com/bbMORj

You'll get follow up emails from this distribution list (and or Marc) with additional info/updates this week.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: kigmatzomat on January 19, 2015, 11:40:20 pm
, but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.
At a minimum for a pro device, it would need to be 512mb ram. However it's not uncommon to see embedded device like the Raspberry Pi, Odroid C2, BeagleBone Black with that amount or even more. If history has shown us anything, we are seeing many users run into memory issues due to having plugins that add up over time.

- Garrett

A Motorola 360 smart watch has 512mb ram for comparison.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 20, 2015, 12:13:01 am
, but I'd be curious as to what you think the "magic" number is, from your personal experience.
At a minimum for a pro device, it would need to be 512mb ram. However it's not uncommon to see embedded device like the Raspberry Pi, Odroid C2, BeagleBone Black with that amount or even more. If history has shown us anything, we are seeing many users run into memory issues due to having plugins that add up over time.

- Garrett

A Motorola 360 smart watch has 512mb ram for comparison.

And my Phone has 3GB of Ram (Samsung Note 4).

VERA needs more RAM
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: konradwalsh on January 20, 2015, 05:20:26 am
Id happily pay for the extra memory!!



I think this is a key point.. You can all shoot me if you wish.. but the VeraEdge is too cheap... how much would have it cost the manufacturer to put in two gb of ram? I would have happily paid more with more power on board
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 20, 2015, 09:29:05 am
You have been heard. I'll make sure that those who need to hear this feedback get it and I will make sure that I deliver it with the passion and importance that you are conveying. 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 23, 2015, 08:17:46 am
It will not be a quick fix. It will not be without significant effort. At all levels within the organization. But it will happen.
Yes yes, heard the same thing many time during the last few years, but you haven't achieved anything you promised.

If you can email me your ship to address in the next 90 min our so, I'll have your controller ship out today. It's a small step, but it's a start towards reestablishing trust.
What am I supposed to do with another pocket-calculator? Continue to work for free for you?! Contact me once you have a software which is stable on a device which actually brings some performance.

I have unpublished my plugins today.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ddluk on January 23, 2015, 09:32:21 am
I'm reading this whole conversation from begging but was not taking part in it because I didn't publish my plugins and application yet so I'm not so advanced developer as you. The reason why I decided to take part in this discussion is situation in which Micasa Verde/Vera Inc. is right know here. I used to work as a developer evangelist (now I'm working with enterprise partners) in big corporation and was responsible for cooperation with developer studios/single developers/students and companies willing to write software for our devices. Before I joined those corporation my point of view regarding releasing software updates, devices, APIs was dramatically different then after joining company. I remember a lot of conversations with developers with questions why you can't release this, why we need to wait for this APIs, why you are going to remove support for this. A lot of questions which I totally understood because I was asking them before I was inside. You need to remember that even they are working on some devices, APIs, new technologies, solutions they are not able to communicate all information to you because just around the corner they are other companies who are waiting for those info to use it for their future development and devices release.

I understand your frustration (I'm also using UI7) but they are situations and times likes this during which we as a developers need to be strong and supportive to effort that company is giving to fix issues and changes processes which were wrong (even they are not able to communicate a lot regarding changes). It will take time but probably at the end we will see a difference. I'm giving my credits to Vera and will see how the future will looks like.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 23, 2015, 09:39:18 am
...but they are situations and times likes this during which we as a developers need to be strong and supportive to effort that company is giving to fix issues and changes processes which were wrong (even they are not able to communicate a lot regarding changes)
I completly agree with you, but you are talking about business relationships. This is not true for me as a developer who has been ignored 3 years and has not a single benefit in developping for this platform.

It will take time but probably at the end we will see a difference.
I would have written the exact same thing, 3 years ago. But nothing happened during this years. All improvements which were achieved during this time have been done by third-party developpers.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ddluk on January 23, 2015, 09:51:17 am
It was not only about business relationships but also about normal cooperation between developer and company. Do you think that Vera competitors are supporting developers in different ways? I don't think so. I spent some time reading Fibaro forum regarding development, issues, solutions and APIs and what I saw was totally different from what we've got here. They (Fibaro) are not trying to solve problems but rather they are saying that user is doing it wrong or developer is developing something which is not usable. I'm not here as long as you so I can't comment past experience but from what I see right I can say that they are working on changes but it will takes time. I think we (developers) should give them few more months to allow them repair UI7, implement proper developer communication ways and arrange proper cooperation between us and them.

One more thing - you need to remember that there are people at the top of the company who are making decisions (above Marc and Colin) - I think they already realized what happened that's why we see recent changes.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 23, 2015, 10:03:27 am

One more thing - you need to remember that there are people at the top of the company who are making decisions (above Marc and Colin) - I think they already realized what happened that's why we see recent changes.

What recent changes? Talk is cheap. They've shipped out some developer Vera units, that's it.

I suspect they changed to a Agile product development model a few months ago when they started to release UI7 firmware updates near the beginning of each month. I'm guessing they are using 4-week sprints. Looks like they are going to miss a January release. Agile dictates you release on time, no matter what, even if all planned features do not make it in the current release. My point is, they can't even follow through on this.

Doesn't matter if you're new here, all one has to do is read the history, it's all documented in the forums here.

And all because another company has bad practices that makes it alright for this company? Puhleeze. That sounds like 5-year old child logic.

The other shoe has dropped, I'm sad to say. Chixxi pulling his plug-ins is a huge negative to this product. Now it's time for MCV to step up and offer to buy them to get them back into the marketplace. Like I said, talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words, and the users/developers here are starting to vote with their feet and dollars.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 23, 2015, 10:04:41 am
It was not only about business relationships but also about normal cooperation between developer and company. Do you think that Vera competitors are supporting developers in different ways? I don't think so. I spent some time reading Fibaro forum regarding development, issues, solutions and APIs and what I saw was totally different from what we've got here. They (Fibaro) are not trying to solve problems but rather they are saying that user is doing it wrong or developer is developing something which is not usable. I'm not here as long as you so I can't comment past experience but from what I see right I can say that they are working on changes but it will takes time. I think we (developers) should give them few more months to allow them repair UI7, implement proper developer communication ways and arrange proper cooperation between us and them.

You really don't seem to have any experience with Vera Control Ltd. How do you come to believe that they will fix UI7 in a few month when they haven't fixed any UI since they are existing? Well, I wish you good luck and lots of energy making the same experiences I have made during the last few years.

One more thing - you need to remember that there are people at the top of the company who are making decisions (above Marc and Colin) - I think they already realized what happened that's why we see recent changes.
Lol, which changes? Do you mean that VeraLowerEdge?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ddluk on January 23, 2015, 10:19:55 am
I'm talking from my point of view and yes, I don't have a lot of experience with them but you are missing so of the points.


You really don't seem to have any experience with Vera Control Ltd. How do you come to believe that they will fix UI7 in a few month when they haven't fixed any UI since they are existing? Well, I wish you good luck and lots of energy making the same experiences I have made during the last few years.

One more thing - you need to remember that there are people at the top of the company who are making decisions (above Marc and Colin) - I think they already realized what happened that's why we see recent changes.
Lol, which changes? Do you mean that VeraLowerEdge?

You are looking on those device from your perspective from power user who want to implement a lot of stuff, use a lot of plugins and do everything yourself but you need to remember about single users who just want to use this device to switch off the lights or close the blinds - yes this kind of users also exists - I know one of them who is my friend - he don't need more, just basic things for which he will be using his mobile application. So do you want to sell this person $900 device which he never will use in 100%? From my perspective Vera Edge is a replacement for Vera Lite and we will see more powerful devices during this year.




One more thing - you need to remember that there are people at the top of the company who are making decisions (above Marc and Colin) - I think they already realized what happened that's why we see recent changes.

What recent changes? Talk is cheap. They've shipped out some developer Vera units, that's it.

I suspect they changed to a Agile product development model a few months ago when they started to release UI7 firmware updates near the beginning of each month. I'm guessing they are using 4-week sprints. Looks like they are going to miss a January release. Agile dictates you release on time, no matter what, even if all planned features do not make it in the current release. My point is, they can't even follow through on this.

Doesn't matter if you're new here, all one has to do is read the history, it's all documented in the forums here.

And all because another company has bad practices that makes it alright for this company? Puhleeze. That sounds like 5-year old child logic.

The other shoe has dropped, I'm sad to say. Chixxi pulling his plug-ins is a huge negative to this product. Now it's time for MCV to step up and offer to buy them to get them back into the marketplace. Like I said, talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words, and the users/developers here are starting to vote with their feet and dollars.

I didn't say that because other company has bad practices it's ok for them to act the same. I said that there is a lot of things to do which other companies don't know that they need to do. We see small step from Vera which is providing Vera Edges devices for development and probably we will see much more soon.

Regarding Chixxi plugins - it's bad situation and I can't discuss it from MCV perspective. Now it's time for them to act and we will see what will happen.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 23, 2015, 12:52:20 pm
I'm talking from my point of view and yes, I don't have a lot of experience with them but you are missing so of the points.

No, I think it is you who are missing the point.  I'm by no means a "power user" but i can tell you there is NO way I would have ever kept my Vera if it were not for developers like chixxi building solutions for what should be, in many cases, already implemented in the basic firmware for a company of this age.

I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking you, but Vera gained it's success IMO on the backs of developers like chixxi.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ddluk on January 23, 2015, 01:06:05 pm
Sure, I understand your point of view and this why I'm also using Vera for my home automation and not other solutions but I'm trying to understand what Vera is trying to achieve. I remember post from Colin who wrote:

Quote
To that end, we're rolling out a new account based user designation feature this quarter that will help to improve the process. It allows power users to "opt in" to displaying all the "advanced" features, while the "standard" user designation leaves much of the highly technical underpinnings safely obfuscated from laymen users. This way each user segment has a more custom tailored experience, based on their specific wants and needs, without diluting or adversely affecting the other.

So basically they want to bring also some general home automation users to their platform.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: intveltr on January 23, 2015, 01:28:12 pm
I'm by no means a "power user" but i can tell you there is NO way I would have ever kept my Vera if it were not for developers like chixxi building solutions for what should be, in many cases, already implemented in the basic firmware for a company of this age.

Indeed.  A lot of the functionality offered by plugins might not be something I'd expect in the firmware, but at least the ability for the community to develop these plugins should be there (+1 for Vera), as well as the support from the manufacturer to the developers, in the form of assistance, proper documentation, bug trackers, etc.  I still recommend Vera to friends, but it is mostly because it supports a TON of devices outside of the Z-wave sphere.  But it only does so courtesy of the community developers.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on January 23, 2015, 04:16:11 pm
It will not be a quick fix. It will not be without significant effort. At all levels within the organization. But it will happen.
Yes yes, heard the same thing many time during the last few years, but you haven't achieved anything you promised.

If you can email me your ship to address in the next 90 min our so, I'll have your controller ship out today. It's a small step, but it's a start towards reestablishing trust.
What am I supposed to do with another pocket-calculator? Continue to work for free for you?! Contact me once you have a software which is stable on a device which actually brings some performance.

I have unpublished my plugins today.
This is most unfortunate news. We're truly sorry to see you go chixxi. You and your contributions will be sorely missed.

We'd love to keep your plugins in play for the community in your absence. I'll just emailed you privately to discuss.

We hope we'll see you again one day, as we continue to make the platform, product, and process improvements discussed over the coming weeks and months.

In the interim, best of luck to you in your future endeavors and look forward to your return.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mikewooduk on January 26, 2015, 04:47:30 am
It will not be a quick fix. It will not be without significant effort. At all levels within the organization. But it will happen.
Yes yes, heard the same thing many time during the last few years, but you haven't achieved anything you promised.

If you can email me your ship to address in the next 90 min our so, I'll have your controller ship out today. It's a small step, but it's a start towards reestablishing trust.
What am I supposed to do with another pocket-calculator? Continue to work for free for you?! Contact me once you have a software which is stable on a device which actually brings some performance.

I have unpublished my plugins today.
This is most unfortunate news. We're truly sorry to see you go chixxi. You and your contributions will be sorely missed.

We'd love to keep your plugins in play for the community in your absence. I'll just emailed you privately to discuss.

We hope we'll see you again one day, as we continue to make the platform, product, and process improvements discussed over the coming weeks and months.

In the interim, best of luck to you in your future endeavors and look forward to your return.

@Colin

Here in the UK, there is a statutory Sales of Goods Act which states that the item must be fit for purpose and free from defects for upto 6 years otherwise a refund should be offered to the customer.

I know you are working hard to try and resolve this, but to lose a valued developer is a serious blow to GetVera/MIOS.  I know you have been offering some Vera Edge Units out, I have signed up for one as I am trying to develop a System for Home Care Monitoring for elderly people, yet there is no way to track any requests for these units.

As previously stated, I have two of Vera Units in a residential setting, one in a small server room for monitoring and about to install one for an elderly grand parent for monitoring purposes.

Back at CES 2013 there was serveral units mentioned that would be available early 2014, then all of a sudden we end up with the Vera Edge.

Your designs are improving, but what we would ideally like is a little bit more power under the hood.  It doesn't take a genius in the finance department to realise that if they up the power under the bonnet for the CPU and upped the Memory and made a couple of different options available i.e. like a Vera Edge Pro with say a faster processor and maybe dare I say 2-4GB of on board memory and maybe a smaller 1GB section of memory for logging instead of USB sticks.  I think you could be onto a winner.

I have lots of potential people in my part of the world here over in the UK that would like to have a Vera Solution, but they don't want the hassle of having to reboot or having bricked units when firmware goes bad.

I am heavily invested into the Vera Ecosystem and browse these forums all the time.  So please listen and do some action, even if you have a wish list area where suggestions are listed and it come have under review, being reviewed and implemented.  At least it would give some idea of what is happening.

One final thing, please try and win back the hearts and minds of all developers past and present otherwise I can see this ecosystem going down the plug hole.

Would love to see a response to all points raised above.

Many thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 26, 2015, 09:28:41 am
So, just to add to everything that is going on here, I thought I would add a real world example of how far reaching the community unrest is at...

I have the VeraMate iOS app (which BTW, your developers could definitely benefit from checking out), and just started playing around with their geofencing options. In their instructions, they specifically mention utilizing a Virtual Switch to help build logic for multiple phones. I have been utilizing the iPhone locator app for awhile, but was thinking I'd start to see how this could play out with geofencing. So I went to download the virtual switch. I do a search and get back nothing. At that point, I realized I had seen something about Virtual Switch in this thread. Sure enough... Chixxi wrote that app.

While I have written my own apps and believe a virtual switch isn't too hard to reimplement, Chixxi went through the effort of creating this app and it was out there to utilize!

Thoughts and questions:

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 26, 2015, 11:41:32 am
As mentioned correctly the virtual switch has not been invented by me.  But it was still me who cleaned everything up,  it was me who created the seperate icon,  it was me who added variables, actions an events on it. I was also the one to upload this on apps.mios.com and therefore make it available to the not advanced user. I also wrote hundreds of mails to make sure this plugin will be supported in third party mobile apps. So I think I may call this my plugin.

I can not invest more time into theses plugins, as you have read above. But I still like this community a lot and I definitely want to get the plugins back up and running as soon as possible. I am negotiating with Vera Ltd.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 26, 2015, 11:55:36 am
@chixxi: why not just post your source? or has that been done? someone else could run with it
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: racarter on January 26, 2015, 01:05:44 pm
I didn't receive the developer e-mail either, possibly because I don't publish my plug-ins in the app store, but if Chixxi wasn't on the list I certainly wouldn't expect to be!

If people want to use my plug-ins they ask on the forum, then I send them the files and instructions.  I've written 5 plug-ins, all for UK/EU hardware and applications, so I only have about 60 users at present, but my two Vera Lites are working well and doing all kinds of things around the house and garden, and I have no intention of disrupting this by "upgrading" to UI7.  As a result, if any of my users upgrade and find issues I have no way of supporting them.

I hate putting users in this situation, even though my apps are free, but why should developers have to risk major disruption to their own systems when they are doing everything they need, just to support users who make the jump to UI7 (or buy UI7 boxes) without having as much to risk?

The idea of a UI7 development box is attractive, but since I have no current plans to "upgrade" from UI5 I'm not prepared to spend $225 (the UK cost of Vera Edge) just in case any of my users wants to use UI7.

If things don't improve on this platform I can envisage a time when I'll have no choice but to move to another, like Chixxi and several others, despite the hundreds of hours of effort I've expended.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on January 26, 2015, 01:07:32 pm
I can not invest more time into theses plugins, as you have read above. But I still like this community a lot and I definitely want to get the plugins back up and running as soon as possible. I am negotiating with Vera Ltd.
@chixxi: why not just post your source? or has that been done? someone else could run with it

People that leave or no longer want to support or keep with with a plugin hand it over all the time, but in this case it seems to be different.

He says "I can not invest more time into it", but then it says hes "negotiating with VERA".......
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: fouclo62 on January 26, 2015, 01:15:33 pm
Hello

I didn't read this whole thread so please accept my apologies if I'm on the wrong track but there seems to be frustrations with UI7 and not being able to test plugins????

So I am not sure if I can help but I do have a VeraEdge (with UI7) beside me that is not being used right now

(I bought it a few months ago to do just that... to play with, to test devices etc...  but I haven't got around to that)

Can I somehow make it available to you so you can test your plugins????

Claude
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on January 26, 2015, 01:30:51 pm
Regarding hardware/software to test things on, I have to say that I received today an Edge with UI7, courtesy of the Vera folks and Colin Burke McClure 's offer.

Whilst I am already using this to good effect, in being able to see first-hand the effects this has on my plugins, I also do have to support one theme of this thread: that a more reliable software platform on which to run the system would help enormously (not to mention more memory and a better App store!)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bigzippy on January 26, 2015, 01:39:18 pm
Regarding hardware/software to test things on, I have to say that I received today an Edge with UI7, courtesy of the Vera folks and Colin Burke McClure 's offer.

Whilst I am already using this to good effect, in being able to see first-hand the effects this has on my plugins, I also do have to support one theme of this thread: that a more reliable software platform on which to run the system would help enormously (not to mention more memory and a better App store!)

Something positive at last :P
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 26, 2015, 03:03:25 pm
Regarding hardware/software to test things on, I have to say that I received today an Edge with UI7, courtesy of the Vera folks and Colin Burke McClure 's offer.

Whilst I am already using this to good effect, in being able to see first-hand the effects this has on my plugins, I also do have to support one theme of this thread: that a more reliable software platform on which to run the system would help enormously (not to mention more memory and a better App store!)

Something positive at last :P

Fully agree!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 26, 2015, 03:58:31 pm
I didn't receive the developer e-mail either, possibly because I don't publish my plug-ins in the app store, but if Chixxi wasn't on the list I certainly wouldn't expect to be!

If people want to use my plug-ins they ask on the forum, then I send them the files and instructions.  I've written 5 plug-ins, all for UK/EU hardware and applications, so I only have about 60 users at present, but my two Vera Lites are working well and doing all kinds of things around the house and garden, and I have no intention of disrupting this by "upgrading" to UI7.  As a result, if any of my users upgrade and find issues I have no way of supporting them.

I hate putting users in this situation, even though my apps are free, but why should developers have to risk major disruption to their own systems when they are doing everything they need, just to support users who make the jump to UI7 (or buy UI7 boxes) without having as much to risk?

The idea of a UI7 development box is attractive, but since I have no current plans to "upgrade" from UI5 I'm not prepared to spend $225 (the UK cost of Vera Edge) just in case any of my users wants to use UI7.


@racarter We don't have you on our developer list because you don't offer your plugins through the store. Lets talk offline.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on January 26, 2015, 04:03:10 pm
Regarding hardware/software to test things on, I have to say that I received today an Edge with UI7, courtesy of the Vera folks and Colin Burke McClure 's offer.

I am in the opposite situation compared to most developers:  I purchased my first vera only about a month ago, so all I've ever had was a UI7 unit.  I then created a few plugins and now desire compatibility with UI5 for those users who have not migrated yet.  Colin & co. at vera have sent me a hardware unit with UI5 installed so I can use that as a test development platform.  (It would have been here by now if not for the nor'easter we're getting right now, so delivery won't be for a couple days yet.)  So I am appreciative to Vera for that!

As a new developer I cannot really appreciate chixxi's frustrations...since I have not truly lived with the "transition" from UI5 to 7...I'm more a witness to the tail end of it.  It does sadden me to see the "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude, but not being in his shoes, I can't really judge.   UI5 appears to have been a "relatively mature, power user" kind of interface, while UI7 is more tailored to the "mass market"  simplicity  over functionality approach.  I can appreciate the move from a business standpoint, but I can also understand devs frustrations at having a loss of stability, lack of documentation for UI7, and a clear methodology to "write once, run everywhere".

I at least see Vera taking some important steps: development units is a start.  Formal and responsive development support would be next.  We need to get away from personal emails and forum posts, and on to a bug / enhancement request platform where items can be logged and tracked.  Development issues are different than end-user issues (I did not say more or less important...just different) and should be handled in an appropriately different manner.

Perhaps most important need though, is for a semi-annual all-expenses-paid Vera developers conference in say, oh, I don't know...Las Vegas or maybe Amsterdam...



Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 26, 2015, 04:18:45 pm
Trust me, Amsterdam is greatly overrated. Coffee shop visits kill your brain cells and we can't have that as it would affect the stability of your plugins. Las Vegas is all party, meaning no work would get done. ;) Unless of course that's your definition of a developer's conference...
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 26, 2015, 04:39:32 pm
Regarding hardware/software to test things on, I have to say that I received today an Edge with UI7, courtesy of the Vera folks and Colin Burke McClure 's offer.
I at least see Vera taking some important steps: development units is a start.  Formal and responsive development support would be next.  We need to get away from personal emails and forum posts, and on to a bug / enhancement request platform where items can be logged and tracked.  Development issues are different than end-user issues (I did not say more or less important...just different) and should be handled in an appropriately different manner.

Perhaps most important need though, is for a semi-annual all-expenses-paid Vera developers conference in say, oh, I don't know...Las Vegas or maybe Amsterdam...

So on bug tracking. We are working on it and a number suggested a different tracking tools. We have a tool that we use internally and we are working on modifying it so we can have a branch that is external so we don't have to duplicate our efforts on two different platforms.


Joe, what a difference 90 miles south on the NJTPK makes, have only had a dusting of snow down here.

Trust me, Amsterdam is greatly overrated. Coffee shop visits kill your brain cells and we can't have that as it would affect the stability of your plugins. Las Vegas is all party, meaning no work would get done. ;) Unless of course that's your definition of a developer's conference...


I learned many years ago, if you are going somewhere and you are going to work and learn, don't take me someplace nice. Take me to a hotel in the middle of the fields in Kansas. I was once taken on a Royal Caribbean cruise and they gave us very little free time and all we wanted to do was play. It wasn't fun, it was cruel.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 26, 2015, 06:02:45 pm
This is encouraging, really hoping real and continuous steps follow.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: peppemon on January 26, 2015, 08:21:22 pm
I consider myself a power user, I work as a developer in a 60.000+ employe Company and I have been using Vera for few years now.
Installed UI6/UI7 in the past, but went immediately back to UI5. I have 2 vera, one in my main home and one in my vacation home.

I use Virtual Switch, Variable Container plugins all the time. Actually I really do not understand why these plugins are not native in Vera.
For example in Fibaro you can easily create variables via UI, compare them, exchange data between scenes.

How hard it is to implement it natively? Vera has people that implement for free what they are supposed to have natively.
I have created a very complicate lua code that handle the A/C on off and temperature in summer, by doing averages, offsets with the external temperature, internal temp and so on. I could not have done it so easily without Variable Container.

I am able to run scenes that talk to each other, set flags, clear flags, all thanks to Variable Container.

I have a ras PI that detect my keychain ibeacon and set a Virtual Switch when I am home and clear it when I am away. How hard is to have it natively?

Vera without plugins is really a toy, nothing more. A RaZberry would do much more!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Aaron on January 27, 2015, 12:48:17 am
I consider myself a power user, I work as a developer in a 60.000+ employe Company and I have been using Vera for few years now.
Installed UI6/UI7 in the past, but went immediately back to UI5. I have 2 vera, one in my main home and one in my vacation home.

I use Virtual Switch, Variable Container plugins all the time. Actually I really do not understand why these plugins are not native in Vera.
For example in Fibaro you can easily create variables via UI, compare them, exchange data between scenes.

How hard it is to implement it natively? Vera has people that implement for free what they are supposed to have natively.
I have created a very complicate lua code that handle the A/C on off and temperature in summer, by doing averages, offsets with the external temperature, internal temp and so on. I could not have done it so easily without Variable Container.

I am able to run scenes that talk to each other, set flags, clear flags, all thanks to Variable Container.

I have a ras PI that detect my keychain ibeacon and set a Virtual Switch when I am home and clear it when I am away. How hard is to have it natively?

Vera without plugins is really a toy, nothing more. A RaZberry would do much more!

Anything you think should be normal or native in Vera is not.  The only thing native to Vera is ... well, just read a few posts on any of the forum sections and you'll get the picture. Though, seems you already understand :)

UI5 = v1 beta
UI7 = far worse

If they think giving out VeraEdge ('Edge' stands for the straight razor you'll want to use on your wrists after using UI7) to developers will solve the problem, it is simply another clear indication Vera does not understand the severity and diversity of their problems

It won't matter soon... all the community coders will be gone and then... there will be no more complaining ;-)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on January 27, 2015, 01:25:02 am
I can not invest more time into theses plugins, as you have read above. But I still like this community a lot and I definitely want to get the plugins back up and running as soon as possible. I am negotiating with Vera Ltd.
@chixxi: why not just post your source? or has that been done? someone else could run with it

People that leave or no longer want to support or keep with with a plugin hand it over all the time, but in this case it seems to be different.

He says "I can not invest more time into it", but then it says hes "negotiating with VERA".......

This is all about making Vera Ltd. finally get a hang of the actual value of the plugins and the importance of this community with the developers. They said before that they understood, but it seems like they never did. It is not a time issue on my side, it is a motivation issue. Vera without plugins is a remote control with a webinterface but has nothing to do with home automation.

I decided to republish the virtual switch, even though I made it a lot better and maintained it, it basically is a community plugin (Just think about it: Vera Ltd. ist even to stupid/lazy to release such simple and basic plugins right from the beginning). About my other plugins, I am negoating with Vera Ltd. how our future cooperation could look like, but I am so fed up with them I want just make them a gift. And believe me, I will not work for another 3-4 years for a $150 device which isn't ready for public.

Thank you all for showing the importance of plugins, even if they are really simple and basic ones.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on January 27, 2015, 03:26:11 pm
Vera without plugins is a remote control with a webinterface but has nothing to do with home automation.

Respectfully, I disagree.

I would say it is more accurate to say that Vera without plugins provides basic home automation.  You can automate tasks based on events triggered by:

1) Schedule
2) "Mode" (Home / Away / Night / Vacation)
3) Events that devices make available
4) Geofencing (recently made available by Vera)

Once an event is triggered, there is one additional conditional supported to control execution of a scene..."what mode(s) is this scene valid for?"

I don't think it's fair to just dismiss these out of hand.  They do in fact serve to support basic automation needs.

For certain, once you get past "basic" automation, you need what I'll call "automation enhancement" plug-ins.  Specifically, being able to handle more complex triggers and conditionals (taking into account the states of multiple devices, variables, and complex conditionals).   This is where items like the variable containter, PLEG, virtual switches, etc all are invaluable.  And yes, it would be great to see that type of functionality in some form rolled into Vera as standard functionality, and I hope Vera moves in that direction.  But that doesn't mean the current implementation serves no home automation needs.

Let me ramble from my own personal experience.  I first bought my Vera solely as the "remote control" of the new z-wave locks I bought.  I was already "remotely controlling" my Garage doors, and my wife wanted similar control on our locks as well.  Wasn't even really thinking about "automation" per se.  Then I found that I could indeed automate some of that control with vera.  (I could automatically enable the lock pin codes only for ceratain days and times for the house cleaning crew, send me alerts if someone enters a wrong code, let me know when my kids get home and unlock the door, etc.)  I think my "intro" to the world of automation is fairly typical. 

Then I found the app store and device enabling plug-ins.  I was able to add my non z-wave garage door opener (MyQ) and Sonos.  I can make them all react to one another.  Cool. 

So then I got the itch to tie in other devices...I was starting to "get" home automation beyond "remote control" and that first and foremost requires that vera be able to interact with my devices.  But the device plug-ins that I needed  (Honeywell WiFi and Legrand Lighting) were not there....so I made a few and I help to enhance another for the devices I own.

And as of right now...my Vera Lite as it is with only using the "device enabling" plug-ins mostly meets my needs from a home automation standpoint.   If you talk to friends and family, they'll tell you I'm a "home-automation zen-master guru geek-nerd" based on what my house "can do."  I of course know the reality though...I am barely scratching the surface of what true home automation is all about.  But the point is, for "the masses", Vera does in fact provide a basic, core level of automation control. 

In the end both "device enabling" plug-ins, and "automation enhancement" plugins are both invaluable assets to the platform.  We all agree that it is in Vera's best interest to support developers of these plug-ins.  I just think it's important to keep in perspective who the majority of consumers are, and what they value in a product may or may not be exactly what "power users" value.

The rub of course, is that if power users / developers don't value the product...the loss of plug-ins and active development in turn lessens the value to the mass market consumer.  So this puts Vera in a position to have to support both user bases.  They may now be formulating a good plan to do this...they may not.  They may be able to execute on that plan...they may not.

Based on the recent developments here and my personal interaction with Vera, I am going to stick around and keep supporting my plug-ins for the foreseeable future, while I keep voicing my opinion on enhancements and needs that I feel would be a benefit to the platform.


Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mht on January 27, 2015, 05:42:22 pm
Not a customer case??!

I'm a developer since many years running my own IT-company. My field of work has been other than Vera and home automation. I couple of months ago I decided to move into home automation and chose Vera as controller. I went for Vera because of the large number of plugins and the large and active community. Now six week after receiving my Vera Edge I'm beginning to think I chose the wrong home automation product.

First of all, a serious bug like the usb/serial hasn't been fixed yet (It has at least gone six weeks because that is how long I have had my Vera Edge).

Secondly, I received an email from support saying that one of my other issues isn't a customer case. My issue is that I can't get pan/tilt to work with my D-link DCS-5020L camera. I have picture from the camera but can't make it do anything else. After emailing back and forth to Vera Support with no solution, I decided to do some serious investigation myself. I ended up using wireshark to monitor what Vera sends to my camera. What I found was that Vera performs basic authentication when getting snapshots from the camera. But when sending pan/tilt commands Vera performs no authentication. The impl file is using luup.inet.wget with the correct username and password as parameters. In the wiki for Luup Lua Extension it states that the luup.inet.wget command will do a authentication: "If Username and Password are specified, they will be used for HTTP Basic Authentication."

I sent an email back to Vera support with my findings and attached the log files from wireshark (including log files in xml-format). I got a reply from Vera Support saying I would greatly suggest to post this info in the appropriate D-link 5020 topic on the forums...I cannot assist you further... it's considered a third party camera... I hope you won't be mad but we need to prioritize customer cases.

If a fault is found in a products function isn't a customer case, what is?

I will give this product a couple of weeks more hoping for a new firmware to take care of the major problems with Vera Edge and UI7. In my opinion the Vera Edge and UI7 still is a Beta product and shouldn't have been released in its current state. I'm also hoping that my experience with Vera Support isn't representative for Vera Supports general customer attitude.

Update January 30:
Today I recieved an email from Vera support: My colleagues from the development have acknowledged that there is indeed a bug in the current firmware. Since the January release is already to be released on Monday, they cannot include the fix in this build, however, it will be included in the February release.

Since my issue and findings in the end was addressed by Vera Support I now think better of Vera Support.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 27, 2015, 06:05:29 pm
@mht I'm sorry for that experience with Technical Support. On one side of the coin it is a 3rd party camera on the other side  you are our customer and we would like you to remain one and be happy and speak kindly of us. I have been tasked as a kind of ombudsman in the forum. Let me talk to some people of the next few days, week and see what we can do. This is a Development Team issue and Technical Support didn't handle it well. We have put processes in place to help us identify issues like this so we can get them resolved for your users.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 27, 2015, 06:11:32 pm
@mht I'm sorry for that experience with Technical Support. On one side of the coin it is a 3rd party camera on the other side  you are our customer and we would like you to remain one and be happy and speak kindly of us. I have been tasked as a kind of ombudsman in the forum. Let me talk to some people of the next few days, week and see what we can do. This is a Development Team issue and Technical Support didn't handle it well. We have put processes in place to help us identify issues like this so we can get them resolved for your users.

So which is it?  Is the statement ("If Username and Password are specified, they will be used for HTTP Basic Authentication.") incorrect or is there a Vera firmware failure? 

I don't understand how this could be a 3rd party issue if the statement above is true.

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 27, 2015, 06:14:55 pm
@mht I'm sorry for that experience with Technical Support. On one side of the coin it is a 3rd party camera on the other side  you are our customer and we would like you to remain one and be happy and speak kindly of us. I have been tasked as a kind of ombudsman in the forum. Let me talk to some people of the next few days, week and see what we can do. This is a Development Team issue and Technical Support didn't handle it well. We have put processes in place to help us identify issues like this so we can get them resolved for your users.

Marc - if he is using a native function of Vera to add a camera and the pan and tilt doesn't work (and the expectation in the UI is that it should), this sounds specifically like a Vera problem no matter what. If this was utilizing a third party plugin, then I think the response from support is somewhat fitting, but still may have been handled better. The fact that camera plugins auto install seems like a grey area to me in terms of where support falls.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: rstrouse on January 27, 2015, 06:27:25 pm
I'll tell you this.  I use luup.inet.wget in UI7 all over my plugin and it works as advertised.  If I supply an invalid username/password I get a 401.  If I supply a valid username/password I get success.  Is it possible that the camera is actually expecting to respond to soap wss?  If you are sure the camera responds to a simple wget with basic auth then perhaps, write the values that are actually being passed to this function to the log to make sure they are not nil, empty string, or obfuscated.

luup.log(<username> .. "/" .. <password>)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: garrettwp on January 27, 2015, 11:12:41 pm
Cameras support is a grey area. Vera does not support ptz and other functions unless there is an appropriate I_xxx.xml file for that camera or a plugin is tailored for it. You should only expect support for getting an image for it. The problem lies in that every make / model uses a different api to retrieve the image and controls. To support every camera would be a pain! Do not expect out of the box support on full control besides an image with vera without some hacking / fiddling.

Adding a camera as a generic camera will only get you support for retrieving the image.

- Garrett
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: garrettwp on January 27, 2015, 11:28:23 pm
I held off long enough to post my 2 cents and I may get some flack for it. 

What I don't get is that you post your plugin for free in the app store and on the forum with the intention of providing to the community and then later on pretty much expect compensation from MCV for your work?! That does not make sense or is fair. If you want to be compensated for your work, do as what Richard is doing and charge for your plugin.

Now this has nothing to do with the lack of response or support for providing us better means of development, that's a different issue which is being discussed here.

- Garrett

Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: chixxi on January 28, 2015, 02:16:40 am
I held off long enough to post my 2 cents and I may get some flack for it. 

What I don't get is that you post your plugin for free in the app store and on the forum with the intention of providing to the community and then later on pretty much expect compensation from MCV for your work?! That does not make sense or is fair. If you want to be compensated for your work, do as what Richard is doing and charge for your plugin.

Now this has nothing to do with the lack of response or support for providing us better means of development, that's a different issue which is being discussed here.

First, it is about finally making Vera Ltd. understand the importance and value of these plugins and the community arround it. And it is not enough to hear from a single employee in the forum "Yes, Yes, we understood, everything will be fine in time.", I have heard that many times before. I want to get the management to talk about this problem, money is the way to get managers seeing a problem ;). But I have said this before. I think it would very well be in the interesst of Vera Ltd. to take over my plugins and keep them online for free without having to charge the users. But this is a management decision.

It is my decission what is fair to do with my plugins, nobody elses. It is my right to take the plugins offline whenever I feel like it, even if the community thinks it is unfair (and of course the community does, I am taking away free stuff).

For your camera issues, this might help. I once uploaded a file which allows you to configure the commands for ptz manually as a variable: http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,16868.msg133554.html#msg133554
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 28, 2015, 05:24:42 am
@garrettwp is right on. Unfortunately, this sticks it more to the users than Vera, but it is your plugin to do as you wish. All this does is give users second thoughts on whether or not to install it. But I didn't pay for it and it's your time to do as you wish.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on January 28, 2015, 07:19:38 am
@garrettwp is right on. Unfortunately, this sticks it more to the users than Vera, but it is your plugin to do as you wish. All this does is give users second thoughts on whether or not to install it. But I didn't pay for it and it's your time to do as you wish.

I think it does a little more than that, well at least it will in the long run. If Vera Ltd. isn't able to get it's act together, I have no doubt that other devs will leave and perhaps if they also decide to pull their apps the prospective buyer will have less desire to move forward with a Vera. Couple this with other viable options that become available in the future.

Time will tell.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 28, 2015, 08:56:44 am
I've been hoping for better hardware, have passed on the Edge.
and I continue to watch for what hardware is being developed that may allow me to switch off of Vera
The community is what keeps me here, heck as I documented above how the community was instrumental in solving my stability issues with Vera even though I had a ticket open with support that went nowhere for months and months.

With a couple of developers taking their toys and leaving or just leaving, it seems like a sinking ship. I'm going to start spending some time with OpenHAB, maybe look at Fibaro, I dunno yet. I hope these guys can get their act together. I've stopped actively singing the praises of Vera to others - talk is cheap, hopefully something concrete comes out of this thread.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 28, 2015, 11:04:09 am
Cameras support is a grey area. Vera does not support ptz and other functions unless there is an appropriate I_xxx.xml file for that camera or a plugin is tailored for it. You should only expect support for getting an image for it. The problem lies in that every make / model uses a different api to retrieve the image and controls. To support every camera would be a pain! Do not expect out of the box support on full control besides an image with vera without some hacking / fiddling.

Adding a camera as a generic camera will only get you support for retrieving the image.

- Garrett

garrettwp, you hit the nail on the head. For the most part no two are alike regarding ptz and non Vera cameras require a plugin whether it is integrated into the UI or a 3rd party plugin and then there are some cameras that cannot be integrated at all because of walls that are put up by the manufacturer.

The response that @mht got was not acceptable and the Tech Support staff member is being spoken to.

By the way, I don't think that I have ever mentioned here that I have been producing a series of videos that is geared towards newer users to help them understand what Vera can do and how to do it. These are not geared to more advanced users such as yourselves but as some of you are answer questions for others they could be helpful. One of our goals with the videos is to eliminate some of the basic questions going into Tech Support to free up our staff to deal with more advanced issues. If you subscribe to the channel you will get notifications when new videos are added. Door locks are going to be the next two.
youtube.com/veratraining.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 28, 2015, 12:37:17 pm
I agree with the camera support as it's been biting me as well. Luckily recently the Blue Iris plugin became available which offloads camera support on a PC running a Windows OS and the excellent Blue Iris camera server software.my Ui5 main Vera still runs a mix of camera's on various plugins but my Ui7 test Vera has all camera's running the Blue Iris plugin as to save memory as well. The drawback is having to run a Windows computer 24/7 but as I am already running a WHS2011 one, that is no big deal for me. I just had to beef it up spec wise.

I much rather GetVera focus on getting Ui7 stable and ready for prime time than trying to develop support for as many IP camera's as possible.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mrv777 on January 28, 2015, 12:56:30 pm
I agree with the camera support as it's been biting me as well. Luckily recently the Blue Iris plugin became available which offloads camera support on a PC running a Windows OS and the excellent Blue Iris camera server software.my Ui5 main Vera still runs a mix of camera's on various plugins but my Ui7 test Vera has all camera's running the Blue Iris plugin as to save memory as well. The drawback is having to run a Windows computer 24/7 but as I am already running a WHS2011 one, that is no big deal for me. I just had to beef it up spec wise.

I much rather GetVera focus on getting Ui7 stable and ready for prime time than trying to develop support for as many IP camera's as possible.

+1

BlueIris is great.  I run it in a VM and I have had no issues with it or getting it to work through my Vera.  I would prefer attention at working on UI7's stability and performance.  Then adding new features like more camera support.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: mht on January 28, 2015, 02:42:14 pm
I don't won't to hijack this tread since it's isn't a thread about my specific camera problems. But I feel I must make some comments and correct one of my earlier statements.

chixxi:
I am using the impl file that you linked to.

rstrouse:
I have checked all parameters that is used in the luup.inet.wget command in my impl file. I have good knowledge about the camera commands and I am sure the pan/tilt commands are correct and has also tested them in other enviroment including a regular browser.


When testing the luup.inet.wget command in the "Test luup code (Lua)" I get the correct camera response. So I was wrong when I in my previous post claimed that the luup.inet.wget didn't perform authentication. The funny thing however is that the identical luup.inet.wget command inside the imp file doesn't work. According to wireshark logs the correct command is sent from vera but without authentication. So my results suggest that the luup.inet.wget command is working correct but not from within my impl file.

I only have limited knowledge in reading the log file from vera. In the log with timestamp 19:59:09.622 there is no username and password. I think there should be when I know that the parameters in the luup.inet.wget is correct.

Update January 30:
Today I recieved an email from Vera support: My colleagues from the development have acknowledged that there is indeed a bug in the current firmware. Since the January release is already to be released on Monday, they cannot include the fix in this build, however, it will be included in the February release.

Code: [Select]
08 01/28/15 19:59:09.490 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest device: 17 service: urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:PanTiltZoom1 action: MoveUp <0x74147520>
08 01/28/15 19:59:09.490 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument DeviceNum=17 <0x74147520>
08 01/28/15 19:59:09.490 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument serviceId=urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:PanTiltZoom1 <0x74147520>
08 01/28/15 19:59:09.490 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument action=MoveUp <0x74147520>
08 01/28/15 19:59:09.491 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument rand=0.8716865025926381 <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.491 Job::Job created <0x10a4e08> name job#33 : dev:17 (0x10a4e08) <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.491 JobHandler::AddJob job#33 : dev:17 (0x10a4e08) P:50 S:0 <0x10a4e08>  type Lua_Job first 0 size 0 <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.492 JobHandler::PurgeCompletedJobs force 0 purge job size: 1 blocking 0 delete 30 <0x776c6000>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.492 JobHandler::Run jobs 1 blocking jobs 0 <0x776c6000>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.492 JobHandler::Run ready to run job#33 : dev:17 (0x10a4e08) P:50 S:0  status 0 <0x10a4e08> priority 50 tNextRunAttempt 0 <0x776c6000>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.493 FileUtils::ReadURL starting user:xx pass:yy http://192.168.1.101/cgi/ptdc.cgi?command=set_relative_pos&posY=-10&posX=0 <0x776c6000>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.494 luvd_get_info_data_request creating file buffer /data_request?id=lu_action&DeviceNum=17&serviceId=urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:PanTiltZoom1&action=MoveUp&rand=0.8716865025926381 pMem 0x1122000/17965056 diff: 3805184 <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.434 luvd_get_info_data_request creating file buffer /data_request?id=lu_status&DataVersion=471506093&MinimumDelay=1000&Timeout=60&LoadTime=1421859974&rand=0.2929283892735839 pMem 0x1122000/17965056 diff: 3805184 <0x74347520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.497 luvd_get_info_data_request done /data_request?id=lu_status&DataVersion=471506093&MinimumDelay=1000&Timeout=60&LoadTime=1421859974&rand=0.2929283892735839 ret 0 size 33552 pMem 0x1122000/17965056 diff: 3805184 took 0 info (nil) <0x74347520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.497 mg_callback /data_request stop id: 72 <0x74347520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.499 luvd_get_info_data_request done /data_request?id=lu_action&DeviceNum=17&serviceId=urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:PanTiltZoom1&action=MoveUp&rand=0.8716865025926381 ret 0 size 143 pMem 0x1122000/17965056 diff: 3805184 took 0 info (nil) <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.499 mg_callback /data_request stop id: 72 <0x74147520>
10 01/28/15 19:59:09.622 FileUtils::ReadURL resp:200 size 53 http://192.168.1.101/cgi/ptdc.cgi?command=set_relative_pos&posY=-10&posX=0 <0x776c6000>
25 01/28/15 19:59:09.622 LuaInterface::CallFunction_Job device 17 function SPanTiltZoom1_PanTiltZoom1_MoveUp_job didn't return a value <0x776c6000>
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: rstrouse on January 28, 2015, 03:52:14 pm
rstrouse:
I have checked all parameters that is used in the luup.inet.wget command in my impl file. I have good knowledge about the camera commands and I am sure the pan/tilt commands are correct and has also tested them in other enviroment including a regular browser.


When testing the luup.inet.wget command in the "Test luup code (Lua)" I get the correct camera response. So I was wrong when I in my previous post claimed that the luup.inet.wget didn't perform authentication. The funny thing however is that the identical luup.inet.wget command inside the imp file doesn't work. According to wireshark logs the correct command is sent from vera but without authentication. So my results suggest that the luup.inet.wget command is working correct but not from within my impl file.

I only have limited knowledge in reading the log file from vera. In the log with timestamp 19:59:09.622 there is no username and password. I think there should be when I know that the parameters in the luup.inet.wget is correct.

Start a thread and post your implementation file there we'll get you some help.  Your likely problem is that username and password are nil because they are stored out of scope for your call.  The call stack and heap for the I_ file can be a mystery but once you understand its context it becomes entirely clear.  Btw this is not a Vera problem and I'm sure we can help you out with this.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: hek on January 28, 2015, 04:26:58 pm
Hmm.. Found this thread today (mostly check the Arduino-plugin part of the forum).

I never got the "developer email".   
 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on January 28, 2015, 06:11:36 pm
@hek

The email that is going referred to is the first post on this thread. Not everyone everyone received it do to a snafu with the email service we used.  This is a follow up post from Colin regarding developer boxes for those how have developed plugins or apps and need a UI7 box to test on.

Quick follow up on this thread and dev samples status. I know that Marc got quite a few units shipped out late last week, but there are still many developers that have yet to respond. In order to expedite, simplify, and track the process we've loaded all the current development partners into a MailChimp list.

You can use the link below provide/update your ship to address (and phone) directly.

http://eepurl.com/bbMORj

You'll get follow up emails from this distribution list (and or Marc) with additional info/updates this week.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: hek on January 29, 2015, 01:43:16 am
Ok, thanks @Marc.

Filled out the details.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RHINESEL on January 29, 2015, 08:43:01 am
Cameras support is a grey area. Vera does not support ptz and other functions unless there is an appropriate I_xxx.xml file for that camera or a plugin is tailored for it. You should only expect support for getting an image for it. The problem lies in that every make / model uses a different api to retrieve the image and controls. To support every camera would be a pain! Do not expect out of the box support on full control besides an image with vera without some hacking / fiddling.

Adding a camera as a generic camera will only get you support for retrieving the image.

- Garrett

garrettwp, you hit the nail on the head. For the most part no two are alike regarding ptz and non Vera cameras require a plugin whether it is integrated into the UI or a 3rd party plugin and then there are some cameras that cannot be integrated at all because of walls that are put up by the manufacturer.

The response that @mht got was not acceptable and the Tech Support staff member is being spoken to.

By the way, I don't think that I have ever mentioned here that I have been producing a series of videos that is geared towards newer users to help them understand what Vera can do and how to do it. These are not geared to more advanced users such as yourselves but as some of you are answer questions for others they could be helpful. One of our goals with the videos is to eliminate some of the basic questions going into Tech Support to free up our staff to deal with more advanced issues. If you subscribe to the channel you will get notifications when new videos are added. Door locks are going to be the next two.
youtube.com/veratraining.

Why is it then that Vera's own branded camera requires a plug-in for PTZ and as far as I know speaker/audio isn't supported?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 29, 2015, 08:47:51 am
I don't know if I am alone in this, but all of this camera talk is detracting from the main point of this thread, which is to discuss an improvement in community relations with the developers. A new thread on the topic would probably be a better approach.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on January 29, 2015, 11:56:32 am
Indeed, please do not hijack this thread with banter about cams. Allow Marc to concentrate on the important issue of getting Vera on track and usable. Start another thread for these other issues.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 30, 2015, 08:06:15 pm
...and another developer leaves.

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30450.msg0/

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: racarter on January 31, 2015, 03:50:41 am
@TC1 - and a telling quote from automator.app, I think:

"Companies that actively support users and developers while providing open communication in this burgeoning market will thrive."

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 31, 2015, 05:10:53 am
He has a pretty good point there but didn't say where he's going.
If I can find out where everyone is going with this exodus, I'll join along, don't want to be left with the rats :D

@TC1 - and a telling quote from automator.app, I think:

"Companies that actively support users and developers while providing open communication in this burgeoning market will thrive."
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on January 31, 2015, 05:19:39 am
... don't want to be left with the rats :D

No, no.  You have that wrong.  It's the rats that go first  :D
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: racarter on January 31, 2015, 05:34:18 am
Are you referring to the rats that desert a sinking ship?  :P
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 31, 2015, 05:34:58 am
... don't want to be left with the rats :D

No, no.  You have that wrong.  It's the rats that go first  :D

from my favorite movie of all time: But I'm not a rat, Agent Kujan.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 31, 2015, 08:09:49 am
OK, let's call a spade a spade...

I paid for the Automator App and painfully used it for well over a year. Thing is, I used it because it seemed like a good alternative to Vera's own app and wanted to justify paying for it. It was a buggy and slow experience for me most of the time, but I kept hoping for updates to come out.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the app and implementation was poor at best compared to some of the other apps out there. Specifically authentication was broken when you switched between networks and you'd have to force kill the app and restart it. Browsing through rooms and devices was slow and buggy.

The VeraMate app is light years ahead of Automator and is continually developed. There were long stretches of time between updates on the Automatir app and they didn't improve much.

I think competition has gotten so strong and the time and effort to get that app up to something that is worth paying for has passed.

I'm sorry to see anyone leave our community, especially because of poor support from Vera, but it is not a loss in terms of an available app. It may actually help new comers not experience a bad 3rd party app.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on January 31, 2015, 08:38:22 am
I don't know about the rest of you, but the app and implementation was poor at best compared to some of the other apps out there. Specifically authentication was broken when you switched between networks and you'd have to force kill the app and restart it. Browsing through rooms and devices was slow and buggy.
Agreed.  I got it because it seemed to cover all device types comprehensively, unlike many other apps, and accessed things like .json files.  But I soon stopped using it because, actually, it wasn't a good user experience for some of the problems you mentioned.

Quote
I think competition has gotten so strong and the time and effort to get that app up to something that is worth paying for has passed.
I'm a HomeWave fan, myself.  There are certainly good (better) alternatives to Automator now.
 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 31, 2015, 12:08:40 pm
Quote
I don't know about the rest of you, but the app and implementation was poor at best compared to some of the other apps out there.

Gee, I think we all know a product just like that still in beta....  ::)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: airedale on January 31, 2015, 02:07:41 pm
OK... so this is definitely more concerning to see...

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30471.0.html (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30471.0.html)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 31, 2015, 02:13:13 pm
+1 as it's my main way of accessing both Vera's. Can't say I didn't see it coming considering Garrett's involvement in the OpenHab thread. Luckily the latest beta works very well for what I need it to do.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 31, 2015, 02:32:13 pm
+1 as it's my main way of accessing both Vera's. Can't say I didn't see it coming considering Garrett's involvement in the OpenHab thread. Luckily the latest beta works very well for what I need it to do.

Yup. The reality is that the only thing Vera has going for it is that MiOS spent the $$$ to join the Z-wave alliance and get access to the proprietary code that deals with secure communications (locks, etc). OpenHab proves that a group of like-minded folks could do a better job of building the automation stack and interfaces. Vera is nothing more than the Z-wave stack at this point. I'm surprised that the OpenHab folks haven't taken up a collection to get the proper Z-wave license to do locks on their own and use any USB Z-wave stick. But I guess that's the purpose of OpenHab, to remain vendor and protocol neutral.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: racarter on January 31, 2015, 02:46:52 pm
This is starting to get serious.  From what I see on this thread (and from personal experience) MCV are all talk.  When are they going to wake up and smell the coffee?  Or is it already too late..?

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on January 31, 2015, 04:16:01 pm
Damn, no more purchases of iOS or Android Vera apps, always bought all of them to help support the cause.
Waiting on my ODROID-C1 to begin working with OpenHAB and looking at having Vera just do the z-wave portion
Sad, a thread that started off so positively but seems to have wound up with nothing but hot air
Some heavyweights have left the building.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: garrettwp on January 31, 2015, 04:38:07 pm
I'll still be around, but my time in development will be spent elsewhere.

- Garrett

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on January 31, 2015, 05:22:10 pm
I may be taking an unpopular position here, but here goes....allow me to ramble.

Quote from: TC1
Yup. The reality is that the only thing Vera has going for it is that MiOS spent the $$$ to join the Z-wave alliance and get access to the proprietary code that deals with secure communications (locks, etc). OpenHab proves that a group of like-minded folks could do a better job of building the automation stack and interfaces. Vera is nothing more than the Z-wave stack at this point.

No offense to OpenHab...but OpenHab has not "proved" much of anything from the point of view that is Vera's primary purpose: a retail product.  What I mean by that is, openHAB does not appear to be able to pass the Grandma test any time soon:  Can I go to, buy an "openhab" controller and door lock for my Mom as a gift, and then walk away and wash my hands of it?   That's even quite ambitious for Vera, but they are much closer to such a reality.

Opensource projects will always have certain advantages over retail, commercially supported products.  On the other hand, they will have disadvantages.   The "power users" of course tend to gravitate to the strengths of opensource vs. those of retail products, so it's not surprising to see the most advanced power users start to gravitate to openHAB.

This is from the openHAB features (http://www.openhab.org/features.html) page:

Quote from: openHAB Features
openHAB does not try to replace existing solutions, but rather wants to enhance them - it can thus be considered as a system of systems. It therefore assumes that the sub-systems are setup and configured independently of openHAB as this is often a very specific and complex matter (including "pairing" processes, direct device links etc.). Instead, openHAB focuses on the "daily use" side of things and abstracts from the devices themselves.

In other words, it is not openHAB's mission to get into the "very specific and complex matter" doing one of the core features required of home automation: actually binding devices physically to "your home".  It basically leaves that matter to the retail products to handle.

Must be nice to "assume" that such minor details are all already taken care of by someone else.  And if it's not?  Send the user to "the other guy" for support.

All sarcasm aside, this is not a slight on openHAB.  Far from it.  It's a fantastic initiative and I hope it continues to grow and become successful. I may even get involved myself.  My point is that the primary concerns for openHAB are simply not the same as those for a product like Vera...although there is of course overlap.  So sure, can a group of "like minded" folks with passion come up with a better "automation" scheme and a more widely accepted interface than Vera?  No doubt.  At least, I have no doubt it is / will be a better scheme for highly technically inclined individuals.

The way I see it, the community here at micasaverde forums would love to see Vera's controller products grow to be

1) More stable when lots of plug-ins, devices are utilized (the device hardware issue).
2) More robust from an automation standpoint.
3) Of course, everyone has their own idea of what "their ideal" UI looks and acts like.  (Vera is in a tough spot here...)
4) Continue to support end-user extensibility with publishable applications.

I do not see any reason why Vera cannot continue to  improve on all fronts.  As has already been discussed, it takes a willingness from Vera to reliably communicate with the community and consider constructive feedback.  It also takes patience from the community and understanding that while we may be the most passionate customers, we are not Vera's only customers.

I have had nothing but a positive experience with the Vera team over the past few weeks since the advent of this thread.  No, all of my inquiries are not yet answered in full, but they have all ben acknowledged.  I for one will continue to actively support Vera with my little plug-ins and will continue to use Vera as my primary home controller.  I will also continue to have a dialog with Vera about what issues I find, improvements I'd like to see, etc.



Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: intveltr on January 31, 2015, 05:36:01 pm
He has a pretty good point there but didn't say where he's going.
If I can find out where everyone is going with this exodus, I'll join along, don't want to be left with the rats :D

The other contenders in the HA hub space that I know of all have their issues as well, and for being one of the cheaper options Vera does all right.  It's still the system I'd recommend for "growing into HA", starting small and adding devices and complexity over time.  What I'd like to see from Vera as a developer has aready been mentioned here: support from the company in terms of proper documentation, bug tracking, access to expertise. Beefier hardware for larger installations.  A leaner, faster UI. Better automation logic (something between Lua and the current basic Scene functionality).  But for now I'll make do with what there is.
   
I haven't seen any greener pastures out there.  OpenHAB looks promising from an architectural perspective and I think they have the right vision, but it does need some maturity, especially in the ease of use department.  I'm sure that's coming, though.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 31, 2015, 06:38:13 pm
I agree. For now Vera works well for my needs. Of course I'm sad to see Garrett spending his considerable development talent on something other than AuthomationHD for Vera but at least the app is available and stable and works pretty well for what I use it for. Since Garrett never asked for a dime for his work, I can fully understand him devoting his development efforts on the OpenHab setup for his own needs.

Now if an AuthomationHD for Openhab version pops up, I will have to very seriously look into that platform. :) 
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: osmosis on January 31, 2015, 07:00:33 pm
On the thread of " what people want the UI to look like" I remember a few years ago for ui5 there was someone ( a company ) that had 4 mock up the prospective interfaces and every one of them was better than what we got.  And a LOT better than ui7.  I think some folks want everything on one page, but as minimalistic as possible and others want a few windows that open other windows. I remember the old GEOS shell for dos with the ability to make groups of icon groups for everything to window blinds or what I currently use Rainmeter with skins for  win 8.1.
I believe we all want similar functionality - powerful - with the ability to plug play, point click configure new devices yet manipulate those devices and their interaction to whatever degree or not we want.
A robust unit with a skinable shell would flavor everyone. Maybe segregate the system into one UI for setup and one UI for monitoring and operation. With the default UI a moveable addable windowed interface with a setup icon to go there. As it is now its all crammed together.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on January 31, 2015, 08:19:25 pm
I may be taking an unpopular position here, but here goes....allow me to ramble.

Quote from: TC1
Yup. The reality is that the only thing Vera has going for it is that MiOS spent the $$$ to join the Z-wave alliance and get access to the proprietary code that deals with secure communications (locks, etc). OpenHab proves that a group of like-minded folks could do a better job of building the automation stack and interfaces. Vera is nothing more than the Z-wave stack at this point.

No offense to OpenHab...but OpenHab has not "proved" much of anything from the point of view that is Vera's primary purpose: a retail product.  What I mean by that is, openHAB does not appear to be able to pass the Grandma test any time soon:  Can I go to, buy an "openhab" controller and door lock for my Mom as a gift, and then walk away and wash my hands of it?   That's even quite ambitious for Vera, but they are much closer to such a reality.

Opensource projects will always have certain advantages over retail, commercially supported products.  On the other hand, they will have disadvantages.   The "power users" of course tend to gravitate to the strengths of opensource vs. those of retail products, so it's not surprising to see the most advanced power users start to gravitate to openHAB.

This is from the openHAB features (http://www.openhab.org/features.html) page:

Quote from: openHAB Features
openHAB does not try to replace existing solutions, but rather wants to enhance them - it can thus be considered as a system of systems. It therefore assumes that the sub-systems are setup and configured independently of openHAB as this is often a very specific and complex matter (including "pairing" processes, direct device links etc.). Instead, openHAB focuses on the "daily use" side of things and abstracts from the devices themselves.

In other words, it is not openHAB's mission to get into the "very specific and complex matter" doing one of the core features required of home automation: actually binding devices physically to "your home".  It basically leaves that matter to the retail products to handle.

Must be nice to "assume" that such minor details are all already taken care of by someone else.  And if it's not?  Send the user to "the other guy" for support.

All sarcasm aside, this is not a slight on openHAB.  Far from it.  It's a fantastic initiative and I hope it continues to grow and become successful. I may even get involved myself.  My point is that the primary concerns for openHAB are simply not the same as those for a product like Vera...although there is of course overlap.  So sure, can a group of "like minded" folks with passion come up with a better "automation" scheme and a more widely accepted interface than Vera?  No doubt.  At least, I have no doubt it is / will be a better scheme for highly technically inclined individuals.

The way I see it, the community here at micasaverde forums would love to see Vera's controller products grow to be

1) More stable when lots of plug-ins, devices are utilized (the device hardware issue).
2) More robust from an automation standpoint.
3) Of course, everyone has their own idea of what "their ideal" UI looks and acts like.  (Vera is in a tough spot here...)
4) Continue to support end-user extensibility with publishable applications.

I do not see any reason why Vera cannot continue to  improve on all fronts.  As has already been discussed, it takes a willingness from Vera to reliably communicate with the community and consider constructive feedback.  It also takes patience from the community and understanding that while we may be the most passionate customers, we are not Vera's only customers.

I have had nothing but a positive experience with the Vera team over the past few weeks since the advent of this thread.  No, all of my inquiries are not yet answered in full, but they have all ben acknowledged.  I for one will continue to actively support Vera with my little plug-ins and will continue to use Vera as my primary home controller.  I will also continue to have a dialog with Vera about what issues I find, improvements I'd like to see, etc.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're all really glad that your experience has been "positive", but as you admit, you've come to the product recently. Many folks here have had to deal with empty promises for years now. To quote one of the other users/devs "it's no longer fun anymore".

It was never implied that OpenHab was a "grandma product". What it is is a platform where hopefully the HA power user will be able to mix and match their choice of technologies and perform complex automation without having to worry about the hardware running underneath it (since they will have a choice there). No one claimed it was a finished product. But guess what? Neither is UI7  ;)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on January 31, 2015, 10:31:28 pm
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're all really glad that your experience has been "positive", but as you admit, you've come to the product recently.

Indeed.  I can only relate personally to the last few weeks.

Quote
Many folks here have had to deal with empty promises for years now. To quote one of the other users/devs "it's no longer fun anymore".

I can appreciate that.  Perhaps because I am new....learning new things, making my devices work and having other folks using my apps and appreciating my work...I am having fun. :)  Honeymoon period?  Perhaps.

Quote
It was never implied that OpenHab was a "grandma product".

And yet you compared openHAB to Vera...you used the example of openHAB to "prove"...what?  That Vera is incompetent because hey...any group of like-minded folks can get together and deliver...so why can't Vera?  My point exactly is that what openHAB is delivering is not the same class of product that Vera is delivering.  In short...your comparison of openHAB to Vera was not entirely fair.

Vera is trying to be a product that is both approachable for novices, and at the same have enough flexibility, power, and expandability for power users.  More ambitious in many ways IMO than openHAB.  There is actually a class of people out there that want to plug a product in, click the one or two buttons they "need" to.... and then just forget about it and get on with their lives.  At least, I've been told these people  exist. ;)   

Quote
What it is is a platform where hopefully the HA power user will be able to mix and match their choice of technologies and perform complex automation without having to worry about the hardware running underneath it (since they will have a choice there).

Right. And that is a worthy goal, and I wish openHAB great success in achieving it.  That being said would it really be fair of me to criticize openHAB for not giving me a product that I can pay $100 for, plug it in, click a few buttons and have my lights and locks up and running? 

Quote
No one claimed it was a finished product. But guess what? Neither is UI7  ;)

Believe it or not....UI7 from a pure consumer perspective actually exceeded my expectations.  I'll allow you a minute to let that sink in. :)  It took me longer to physically install my locks than it did to get them up and running with Vera UI7.  And UI7 provided me with more control options than I assumed it would.  My prior experience is what I could do with my MyQ garage doors, Honeywell WiFi thermostat, and Legrand lighting gateway.  And that damn lighting gateway cost nearly $300.

It was what UI7 allowed me to do "out of the box" that drove me to see "what else I could do".  And the rest is (an admittedly short) history. :)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on January 31, 2015, 11:47:47 pm
Knowing full well I'll get undoubtedly will get 'smitten' for this, here goes.

I've been around for about 3 years. Starting with a Vera2 and upgrading it to a Vera 3 about a year later. Using these forums to gain the knowledge I needed to get Vera configured and working correctly. I'm running about 30 physical zwave devices and a number of plugins. My Vera 3 Ui5 is my production unit and it's last reboot was 12/31/2014. Not to shabby. My test/QA Vera 3 Ui7's last reboot was January 21st 2015. Not to bad either as I can't remember if that was something I did or not.

* Do I like the look of Ui7? Not really. To me there is too much wasted white space and the film strip at the top is a nuisance as it displays mostly info unusable to me. Is that a big deal? Not to me as 95% of my interaction with either Vera is via Authomation. I only use the webUI for changes which is not that often. The UI could do with some major tweaking I agree.

* Is UI7 as unstable as everyone seems to believe? Not so far, but then again, it's not yet running the 30 zwave devices my UI5 Vera is running. I do tend to gravitate towards the feeling it's not 100% production ready but hey, it's no worse than what Microsoft puts out. Or to a lesser scale Apple. I remember the IOS5, IOS6 etc upgrade woes. Remember antenna gate and bend gate?

* Is UI7 easier to add devices to and make changes? For the ones I've added it seems to require less knowhow and tweaking which is good for  the soccermom demographic and less of a headache to me. ;)

If I had to choose just one UI, at this time it would be UI5. Solely for the reason it's proven over the last few years to be stable and reliable. I haven't had enough experience with UI7 at this time to determine if it's as stable. That is why I am running my QA Vera so I can determine that. This box runs a large part of my house and makes my life easier so I'm not about to go experiment with that. I've been in the IT world long enough to appreciate the need for a QA/Testing environment to ensure the production environment stays stable.

* Is the platform in trouble? I believe it is. Competition has gotten fierce with some big hitters in the market. We've lost plugin developers like Chixxi and ap15e. App deveolpers have ceased development or put same on hold while evaluating other options. With all respect to getVera, their Ui7 Android app has nowhere near the power of AuthomationHD. I would not be able to have Vera do what she does without the work of 3rd party developers of both plugins and apps and I am nowhere near the level of some of the real power users in here.

* Does Getvera realize the above? Considering their presence in these forums as of late I believe they do. I also believe some effort is being made to try and turn the tide. If it is enough and actions rather than words, only time will tell.

Do I consider myself a developer? Not really. all I did was contribute some work to the MyQ plugin which really is a community effort. Why did I do that? Because I needed support for my Craftsman opener and it was kinda fun coding again as it's been a while. To a lesser extent it was paying forward for all the help received in here when needed. Unfortunately my time does not allow me to to do much more than that. I'm to old for those 24 hour coding session with the B52's playing loudly and pizza and soda's close by. (Wondering if someone gets that reference)   

My plans? For now stick with Vera as she does what I need her to do right now. I'll definitely keep an eye on the OpenHab project as a plan B system. I've been caught once without such a plan B and learned a hard lesson about not being prepared. The new SmartThings may be a plan C but not enough info is available on that one.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: lolodomo on February 01, 2015, 04:29:19 am
On my side, I believe I never received this famous mail too (or did I delete it by error ?) while I am the author of 3 plugins + a major contributor to another plugin (Sonos). My RFXtrx plugin is probably just used by many Vera users.

By the way, I have now engaged since December 2014 my migration to openHAB as my main home authomation system (very impressed by the stability of such a solution) and I will keep using my VeraLite as my Z-Wave controller.

Of course I will not delete my published plugins, that is absolutely not my philisophy.
3 of my plugins are already available in the marketplace in their final release: Freebox Revolution, DLNA media controller and Sonos.
I would like to publish in the marketplace my RFXtrx plugin but there is apparently a technical problem in the marketplace that Vera Control is not able to fix ! I will let them still few days to fix that and then I will forgive... In this case, I will at least release the final 1.0 release in code.mios.com to let eveybody to install it manually.

If critical bugs in my plugins are discovered in the future and if they are not relative to UI7 (I was constrained to rollback to UI5 due to major issues with my Z-Wave network when using UI7 - "can't detect device" error for few of my Z-Wave devices), I will try to provide a fix.
All my plugins were tested in UI7 in the past (I spent a lot of time for that) and should normally work well (not tested with the last UI7 firmware).
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: svaleb on February 01, 2015, 07:17:30 am
@BOFH
Thanks for your sum up.
About the ui I wil ad my personal view.
I have had a V3 for about 3 years but still consider myself a "succermom".
I jumped to ui6 from the start and gave it time because of its "unfortnate release", went on to ui7 when possible. Many of my devices did not work but it could wait untill winter, during the summer I did not need thermostats and lights when I came home. In october; I think, I went back to ui5 to make things work.
I dont like ui7 for the same resens as you, too much white space and unuseable features, too much clicking ect. but worse it is not logical.
I live in an area where phone an internet connections are poor and, diffrent from you, I use the ui dayly. I feel the ui7 is useless.
It needs a LOT of tweeking. Apart fom the fact that it is not working well "yet", I would still prefer ui5.
But I cannot fight the future.
I just wish MCV would listen to what we are trying to say.
Regards
            CE
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 02, 2015, 10:03:29 am

I dont like ui7 for the same resens as you, too much white space and unuseable features, too much clicking ect. but worse it is not logical.

I just wish MCV would listen to what we are trying to say.

CE, rest assured we are listening. I spend a considerable amount of time reading what is being said here and in other threads. I do not always comment but all of the feedback, especially in this tread is being read and taken in and forwarded to the management team and the appropriate team members.

Could you PM or email me more details about what you find unusable features, too much clicking and what is not logical so I can relay that feed back to our team.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: svaleb on February 02, 2015, 12:02:24 pm
Thanks Marc
I AM assured and hopefully it will help both thr compny and "us here".
By the way it would be nice if you would put in some news in your tread on the top of the forum, the latest is a server overhaul, I think.
We, in the forum, must look for news oll over the net. I vould like to see a link to new products, new updates comming up, "this week we are working on"....(e.g.)thermostats,...in the new update we are working on is expectet to solve...it will be delayed (a few) days.
As I sayed I left ui7 in october it could hae improoved since and I dont remember all, but I will write to you.
Regards
             CE
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ceefin on February 03, 2015, 04:23:11 pm

By the way it would be nice if you would put in some news in your tread on the top of the forum, the latest is a server overhaul, I think.
We, in the forum, must look for news oll over the net. I vould like to see a link to new products, new updates comming up, "this week we are working on"....(e.g.)thermostats,...in the new update we are working on is expectet to solve...it will be delayed (a few) days.

Marc, Colin,

I was just thinking about this, myself. Community outreach involves reaching out beyond the Beta Testing forum. I stumbled upon this thread by accident and have been very satisfied to see the two of you posting back and forth with the community, so much so that it gave me some hope.

I purchased a VeraEdge back in November and have been tinkering with it. Overall, I've been somewhat satisfied, but before I found the back and forth conversation here, between the community and you two, as representatives of the company that produced the unit. I was *very* close to sending it back as I was still in the Amazon extended holiday return period that ended a few days ago..

Now, that's passed. I'm kind of locked into Vera... It's mostly working. I have a few bugs here and there that pop up from time to time, the iOS app irritates me every time it doesn't work or takes forever to connect, but I still have hope. Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: zedrally on February 03, 2015, 04:39:49 pm
Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris


+1, yes it's all about communication.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Vodden on February 03, 2015, 04:45:07 pm

Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

+1 here too.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: vosmont on February 03, 2015, 04:47:53 pm
Hello,

I'm a Vera Lite user since some years, and I think you are a little hard with this box (OK I'm still on UI5 for the moment  :D).
The Vera is able to do what you want, with plugins (community and your own dev) or LUA.

I'm not coming here often (more on the french forum TLD), and I discovered that Vera Control seems to follow more closer the developpers.
Good news !

Just some thoughts for Vera Control :
- Uploading files on the MIOS Marketplace is not easy. It's difficult to know if all the files are correctly updated.
- Please, save choices for publication (Destination Path and compress). If you forget them for exemple, icons won't be available for new users.

Sincerely,
Vincent
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Brientim on February 03, 2015, 04:50:11 pm
Hello Chris,

I agree with your comments and I have sent a few emails to both about communication using official announcements and followed with Marc again earlier today.

Marc acknowledged what I communicated "One of the complaints was no official announcements are being made WRT MCV activities and only appears in their (yours) Facebook page.  14k Facebook follows vs 100k forum members." And... "The problem at the moment is even Colin's recent posts about the firmware and your about the training video are in sub threads specific to a question and will get lost in time. By using the official post and linking the sub threads specific to a question and will get lost in time. By using the official post and linking the sub thread to this, the official post maintain the integrity of the message and easy to reference. This is users window into MCV's working.

WRT to firmware releases, yes link it out but I believe a key statement of the big wins should be included. I.e this release rectified the USB issue..."
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: akbooer on February 03, 2015, 04:53:29 pm
I'm not coming here often (more on the french forum TLD), and I discovered that Vera Control seems to follow more closer the developpers.
Good news !
I think you'll find that this is a relatively recent innovation

Quote
Just some thoughts for Vera Control :
- Uploading files on the MIOS Marketplace is not easy. It's difficult to know if all the files are correctly updated.
- Please, save choices for publication (Destination Path and compress). If you forget them for exemple, icons won't be available for new users.

+1 for that!  I do believe that improvements to the App Store have been promised, so we look forward to what can be done.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Vodden on February 03, 2015, 04:58:38 pm

Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

+1 here too.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: zedrally on February 03, 2015, 05:30:37 pm
I actually thought the logo stuff up was something unique to me.   ???


Thinking out aloud, would proper Forum software be a step forward?
Simple machines are OK to start with but have limitations.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on February 03, 2015, 06:23:41 pm
I actually thought the logo stuff up was something unique to me.   ???


Thinking out aloud, would proper Forum software be a step forward?
Simple machines are OK to start with but have limitations.

+1 on THAT.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on February 03, 2015, 06:42:54 pm
I actually thought the logo stuff up was something unique to me.   ???


Thinking out aloud, would proper Forum software be a step forward?
Simple machines are OK to start with but have limitations.

+1 on THAT.

You guys sure that's not like the VERA icons? They only work when on the local server? LOL
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on February 04, 2015, 08:47:14 am
You guys sure that's not like the VERA icons? They only work when on the local server? LOL

Haha LOL, a very good example of how Vera Ltd. keeps ignoring us. I reported this bug over two years ago (to be exact: 807 days ago), hasn't even been assigned so far: http://bugs.micasaverde.com/view.php?id=2674
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: konradwalsh on February 04, 2015, 09:24:53 am
I think the guys are talking about this forum.. the forum software and the forum icon logo which is wayyy off topic
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 04, 2015, 11:51:50 am

By the way it would be nice if you would put in some news in your tread on the top of the forum, the latest is a server overhaul, I think.
We, in the forum, must look for news oll over the net. I vould like to see a link to new products, new updates comming up, "this week we are working on"....(e.g.)thermostats,...in the new update we are working on is expectet to solve...it will be delayed (a few) days.

Marc, Colin,

I was just thinking about this, myself. Community outreach involves reaching out beyond the Beta Testing forum. I stumbled upon this thread by accident and have been very satisfied to see the two of you posting back and forth with the community, so much so that it gave me some hope.

I purchased a VeraEdge back in November and have been tinkering with it. Overall, I've been somewhat satisfied, but before I found the back and forth conversation here, between the community and you two, as representatives of the company that produced the unit. I was *very* close to sending it back as I was still in the Amazon extended holiday return period that ended a few days ago..

Now, that's passed. I'm kind of locked into Vera... It's mostly working. I have a few bugs here and there that pop up from time to time, the iOS app irritates me every time it doesn't work or takes forever to connect, but I still have hope. Please give me some more - please tell me/us what's going on, in a broader posting than some obscure subforum thread. Update the official announcements forum, post a new company blog, and fix the stupid image logo in the upper left corner of this page while you're at it!

Thanks,
-Chris

Chris, we have been using Facebook for corporate announcements, it is a little more dynamic when we are posting pictures and video. facebook.com/veracontrol. But you are right, there is no reason for us not to put it into the announcements area here as well.

I/we are glad that you have decided to stay with us. We are aware of the slow loading time on the iOS app and our developer is working on it.

Thanks for the input, if there are specific issues or bugs that you come across feel free to PM or email me so I can alert the appropriate people.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 04, 2015, 12:00:32 pm
Regarding communication through the official announcement area, noted.

Regarding the comments about uploading your apps to the store; also noted and I'm forwarding your comments to the appropriate members of our team.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 06, 2015, 06:53:04 pm
In the spirit of what many of you have been asking; I posted an "official announcement" regarding UI7 7.04 firmware update in the official announcement section of the forum.

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30591.0.html

There is a link to the release notes, and specific information regarding the USB fix with certain USB to serial adapters.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: cybrmage on February 06, 2015, 09:31:32 pm
In the spirit of what many of you have been asking; I posted an "official announcement" regarding UI7 7.04 firmware update in the official announcement section of the forum.

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30591.0.html

There is a link to the release notes, and specific information regarding the USB fix with certain USB to serial adapters.

Would a link to the firmware file(s) be too much to ask for?? It will be hard for plugin developers to debug their plugins on the new UI7 version when their development units haven't been updated... Mine haven't updated and there are users who are already starting to discuss issues/fixes with the new firmware... kinda hard to move forward when i'm stuck in the past...


Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on February 11, 2015, 12:51:40 pm
You guys sure that's not like the VERA icons? They only work when on the local server? LOL

Haha LOL, a very good example of how Vera Ltd. keeps ignoring us. I reported this bug over two years ago (to be exact: 807 days ago), hasn't even been assigned so far: http://bugs.micasaverde.com/view.php?id=2674
CHIXXI - We haven't used this resource in well over 18 months, so if your are struggling with an icon display issues in UI5 please let me know and I would be glad to escalate on your behalf.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on February 11, 2015, 01:15:58 pm
CHIXXI - We haven't used this resource in well over 18 months, so if your are struggling with an icon display issues in UI5 please let me know and I would be glad to escalate on your behalf.

Colin,

This is a well known issue and one that your own team couldn't miss during testing. Custom plugins don't display the icon when accessed remotely vs. locally in the UI.

And Currently UI7 doesn't display icons even locally. Screen Shot attached


EDIT: Found after a forced app update (even if your on the current version) then a browser refresh fixes the problem.... For Local Atleast
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: guessed on February 11, 2015, 01:26:44 pm
CHIXXI - We haven't used this resource in well over 18 months, so if your are struggling with an icon display issues in UI5 please let me know and I would be glad to escalate on your behalf.

Colin,
This is the only Public, Trackable, reporting mechanism that MiOS provides for bugs, issues (etc).

I don't recall any communication that it's not used anymore, and what it's replacement was, but perhaps I missed that announcement/blog post/email...

There are a significant number of issues reported in that system, some dating back many yrs, that are still relevant and need to be addressed... in a manner trackable to filers and interested parties.

For Vera's long-term functional/stability & release regression issues, communication via Email is not going to lead to material progress on these problems.  This is even further worsened by the lack of community engagement in prioritizing them and, of course, have the MiOS Team actually fix them

Transparency in this process is a key part of keeping the community engaged, and working toward making them happier.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on February 11, 2015, 01:38:37 pm
Colin,

This is a well known issue and one that your own team couldn't miss during testing. Custom plugins don't display the icon when accessed remotely vs. locally in the UI.

And Currently UI7 doesn't display icons even locally. Screen Shot attached

Actually, I believe UI7 does display icons locally...the issue there is that the JSON must explicitly support UI7 style icons in order to do so.  In other words, if the device JSON was designed with UI5 "flashicon", or "disaply_status" (for variable icons), they are not forward compatible with UI7 (default_icon, state_icons).  To complicate things further, the default local storage location for icons is not the same, so the developer must take extra care when publishing to make sure icons get uploaded to the correct place, and the json points to the correct location.

It's another reason why I'm now a big proponent of separate static json files for UI5 and UI7 devices.

That all being said...the long standing issue of displaying custom icons remotely is indeed still a long standing issue.

Colin, I believe this has been raised before, but developers need one of the following to happen with respect to icons:

1) That somehow when accessing vera remotely, the locally installed / stored icons can be displayed.  this applies to both the default icon, and variable / dynamic icons.

or

2) That when publishing an app, the developer can publish icon files to vera servers, and reference those public icons from the static JSON.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: JoeyD on February 11, 2015, 01:42:17 pm
For Vera's long-term functional/stability & release regression issues, communication via Email is not going to lead to material progress on these problems. 

+1
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 11, 2015, 06:27:38 pm
We have all and I mean all, from Lew, Aaron, and Colin to the managers from the Development Team and Technical Support as well as myself have had multiple meetings and are working on finding a way that is both functional for the community  and avoids us duplicating work for members of the team. In the mean time forward them to me and I will make sure that they get to the appropriate people.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on February 11, 2015, 08:51:34 pm
If it helps anyone developing a plugin from wasting time on icons ......   the url approach seems to work consistently for both UI5 and UI7.   I tried various approaches with UI7 including uploading the icon files and having my plugin copy them to the correct directory.  Vera complained of a permissions error ..... 

Of course to use the URL method you have to have somewhere to place these icons.  I put them in http://code.mios.com/ (access to which was set up by one of the MCV support folks).  It's also where I source json.lua and other resources.  Rather than include them in the package - 'startup' downloads them if needed.

@Marc - perhaps some formalization of an approach like this may be a more flexible / simpler way ?   BTW I'm not suggesting code.mios.com (as it's rather ugly) but thinking instead of each plugin getting some space on a well known web server for storing and updating resources like this.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: RichardTSchaefer on February 11, 2015, 11:15:31 pm
Stuart, Marc, ...
     A more appropriate way is to all us to specify a URL via the LuaUPnP engine to download the file ... that way it will get forwarded via the Tunnel and we can leave the Icons on Vera ... where it will work in ALL contexts (Local with and without internet connection, and remote).
     An alternate approach is for the APP store developer interface to FLAG icons that get uploaded to the REMOTE access server staging servers. The APP store interface already enforces unique naming of files ... so this should not be a problem ... clearly the have a few 10s of megabyte of diskspace on their servers for these. Then the relative URLs will work in all contexts (This is the way the MCV supported ICONS are handled!).
 
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on February 12, 2015, 07:08:49 am
Stuart, Marc, ...
     A more appropriate way is to all us to specify a URL via the LuaUPnP engine to download the file ... that way it will get forwarded via the Tunnel and we can leave the Icons on Vera ... where it will work in ALL contexts (Local with and without internet connection, and remote).
     An alternate approach is for the APP store developer interface to FLAG icons that get uploaded to the REMOTE access server staging servers. The APP store interface already enforces unique naming of files ... so this should not be a problem ... clearly the have a few 10s of megabyte of diskspace on their servers for these. Then the relative URLs will work in all contexts (This is the way the MCV supported ICONS are handled!).
 
RichardTSchaefer - Just as when you and I talked about this on the phone (late last year), I agree 100%. I'm actually in Iasi w/ Dev Team as we speak and this (long overdue) topic is already on the agenda for this week. I'll round back with you on an update midweek next week (as I'll have 12 hours on a plane to catch up a bit). We may reach out to you over the next few days to discuss (time zones and schedules permitting, of course).
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: chixxi on February 12, 2015, 09:08:44 am
You guys sure that's not like the VERA icons? They only work when on the local server? LOL

Haha LOL, a very good example of how Vera Ltd. keeps ignoring us. I reported this bug over two years ago (to be exact: 807 days ago), hasn't even been assigned so far: http://bugs.micasaverde.com/view.php?id=2674
CHIXXI - We haven't used this resource in well over 18 months, so if your are struggling with an icon display issues in UI5 please let me know and I would be glad to escalate on your behalf.

I didn't want to start a discussion about the icons, this basically is no urgent bug which influences functionality. I wanted to show that you ignore our messages and reports. And as described by richard the aproach to fix this is pretty basic.

Years ago we were urged to post our bugs in the mantis, beeing told that messages sent by email or reports in the forum will not be fixed. Now you tell me the other way arround. There was no official communication that bugs.micasaverde.com is no longer beeing used, and it also is still online and accessible. This is just ridiculous, you decided to no longer use the only way of properly reporting bugs, even before having setup or even thought about another solution. Not only that, it seems like you also decided to ignore all the bugs that have already been reported.

What do you mean by "please let me know and I would be glad to escalate on your behalf"?! You already know now, fix it! Or do you expect be to copy the bug report and forward it in a personal message so that you get it?!!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Otje on February 12, 2015, 09:45:04 am
Dear Chixxi and All

I feel your arguments are very clear and it must be frustrating to have experienced this over the years. i also use the Vera for quite some time now and honestly i do not expect anthing anymore from MCV, i did not even try to upgrade to UI6 or 7, considering the earlier experiences.

Still, i feel that MCV is at least trying now and they become more visible on the forum. eventhough the approach to report bugs in a different way is maybe not the best way, but i feel MCV is making an attempt to come closer.

I would suggest we take this momentum and use this alternative and at the same time give some more time to MCV to get "stable"


i welcome the efforts from MCV and i am looking forward to migrate to UI7 sometime this year  ;)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: shady on February 12, 2015, 06:46:26 pm
it must be frustrating to have experienced this over the years.

6 years or so for me as I was a lurker before signing up.

Vera is my oldest child.  I remember that time when she brought home UI3 and I said "Over my dead body, my daughter is not dating a Floorplan UI!"

6 years is a long time in technology.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: TC1 on February 12, 2015, 10:14:57 pm
it must be frustrating to have experienced this over the years.



Vera is my oldest child.  I remember that time when she brought home UI3 and I said "Over my dead body, my daughter is not dating a Floorplan UI!"



I guess we can call UI7 "white-space trash".  ;D
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Aaron on February 13, 2015, 05:56:43 pm
Dear Chixxi and All

I feel your arguments are very clear and it must be frustrating to have experienced this over the years. i also use the Vera for quite some time now and honestly i do not expect anthing anymore from MCV, i did not even try to upgrade to UI6 or 7, considering the earlier experiences.

Most of us feel this way... 100% give up on Vera as a company and a product. Why people install UI6 or 7 is beyond me. UI5 needs to be stable and bug fixed first. They need to stop UI'ing and start FIX'ing.

Still, i feel that MCV is at least trying now and they become more visible on the forum. eventhough the approach to report bugs in a different way is maybe not the best way, but i feel MCV is making an attempt to come closer.
I remember a famous phrase... "Trying is for losers". I live by this as I find it is true. If Vera has been trying they should give up - they suck at it. If they admit they have not been trying and finally start DOING I'd respect that a whole lot more.

DOING = a fully thought out plan which documents the specifics around a "Get Well Plan" - then post this to the forum for feedback. ONLY this will garner respect from the community to which they now have zero respect from.

Fairly sure they have no idea where to start on creating such a plan. I'll give them some guidance... do a SWOT analysis, then a gap analysis.

There, I did my philanthropic chore for the day and can write off my $150/hr consulting fee.

... and at the same time give some more time to MCV to get "stable"
Everyone here has given MCV time to get stable... a few years. Exactly when do you suggest has enough time been provided?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Vodden on February 13, 2015, 08:59:21 pm
I think that it has been made very clear to Vera what problems need to be addressed and they have provided the community with a timeline to formulate a plan and resolve the issues which have been brought forward.

I think we need to give them that time they said they needed to come to the table with (or without, we shall see) resolutions and plans.  Colin has also stated that if there are other concerns that he can be messaged privately or emailed and they will address them. Let's try not to turn this thread into a rant about Vera's shortcomings and continue to judge them by past mistakes.

I think we've already seen that there is an elevated level of corporate commitment toward resolution of the issues brought forward within this thread.  I think the community needs to give them a chance to turn this around.


Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on February 14, 2015, 05:44:41 am
Dear Chixxi and All

I feel your arguments are very clear and it must be frustrating to have experienced this over the years. i also use the Vera for quite some time now and honestly i do not expect anthing anymore from MCV, i did not even try to upgrade to UI6 or 7, considering the earlier experiences.

Most of us feel this way... 100% give up on Vera as a company and a product. Why people install UI6 or 7 is beyond me. UI5 needs to be stable and bug fixed first. They need to stop UI'ing and start FIX'ing.

Still, i feel that MCV is at least trying now and they become more visible on the forum. eventhough the approach to report bugs in a different way is maybe not the best way, but i feel MCV is making an attempt to come closer.
I remember a famous phrase... "Trying is for losers". I live by this as I find it is true. If Vera has been trying they should give up - they suck at it. If they admit they have not been trying and finally start DOING I'd respect that a whole lot more.

DOING = a fully thought out plan which documents the specifics around a "Get Well Plan" - then post this to the forum for feedback. ONLY this will garner respect from the community to which they now have zero respect from.

Fairly sure they have no idea where to start on creating such a plan. I'll give them some guidance... do a SWOT analysis, then a gap analysis.

There, I did my philanthropic chore for the day and can write off my $150/hr consulting fee.

... and at the same time give some more time to MCV to get "stable"
Everyone here has given MCV time to get stable... a few years. Exactly when do you suggest has enough time been provided?
AARON - With all due respect, there is a clear line between a frank and open dialog and being disrespectful and insulting.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: bucko on February 14, 2015, 12:20:58 pm
+1 @ Vodden
However I will continue to wait before I purchase and install Vera Edge for the 2 properties I need HA on. Until MCV can indeed make UI7 correct and stable, I am watching and looking at alternatives. If by May Vera remains unstable, I will move to another platform for my clients home. My hardware installations will be complete by then.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Aaron on February 17, 2015, 05:35:11 pm
AARON - With all due respect, there is a clear line between a frank and open dialog and being disrespectful and insulting.

I was not really trying to insult anyone - my goal is 100% accurate factual information. I did post an opinion or two but it is based on historical evidence, or lack of. If there is a plan real 'get well', publish it and we'll all be happier for it. If you don't have one, and want to put one together... ask for help. I never look down upon people who don't know how to do something, just those who don't seek to learn.

If you took my comments of the prior 2 years efforts as insulting then you are now starting to comprehend how the community feels about how we have been treated and/or ignored. There has been open dialog of discontent in numerous (dozens at least) threads over the past year or two. What users consider the 'core development team' (Richard, Garrett, Chixxi, futzle, etc) are frustrated, leaving and/or exploring OpenHAB & other platforms... others like cjackson, left a long time ago.

I'm really not a jerk, though you may think so... I've often offered my time, no charge, to help. My offer still stands if I see Vera being serious, organized, and methodical about healing the community and the product... or wants help do do those things too.




Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on February 17, 2015, 07:09:37 pm
I'm just hoping to see something come of this thread (other than some dev boxes which seems to not be the horsepower people want). So far, it seems further alienation and more developers suspending their development efforts. I didn't find your comments insulting, Aaron, after spending so much time with a product, passion is what vera needs to hear. Granted they can't make a course correction in weeks but something more is needed. hopefully they don't simply just reboot their forum
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 24, 2015, 11:02:29 am
Our Dev Team and especially Andrei have been working very hard to create tools for you to make developing plugins easier. These new positioning Rules and the Device Simulator will be part of the 7.05 firmware release.

Lets start with positioning rules:
The controls for generic devices are placed inside the device container based on the order in which are found in device .json file and so, each control is drawn to the right of the previous one. If a control doesn?t fit in the remaining space it will be drawn on the following line. This rule will guarantee that the look of a device will be the same on the Web, but also on the mobile apps.
In order to achieve this, but also to maintain backward compatibility with UI5, the developer can add new properties to the device .json, but doesn?t have to change the existing ones.
 
The new proprieties are:
- line_break : will force the next items to be displayed on the next line;
- spacer : add space between controls;
- HorizontalMultiplier : used for changing size of controls;
Regarding the compatibility with mobile apps, it is still a work in progress and will be available in a future release.

Also attached are three screenshots for Device Simulator. It will be found on "Apps/Develop Apps"
The other two screenshots are from the actual device simulator, one form the JSON tab where developers can paste the JSON code for their device and see how it will look on Dashboard, and the other is from State tab where you can assign values for variables that will also affect the simulated device. In this case, setting "LoadLevelStatus" variable value to 45 is reflected on simulated device by changing the state of the "on/off" button to ON, slider is set at 45% and the icon is also changed.

Currently these changes will only be reflected in web UI. We are working on the mobile apps implementation but I do not have an ETA at this time.

There are more tools in the works, I will share more details as we get closer to them being available.


I have crossed posted this at http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,30931.0.html which would be best to use for comments and questions regarding these rules and tools.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: vosmont on February 24, 2015, 11:19:07 am
Great news !
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: amg0 on February 24, 2015, 11:45:22 am
Yes! Looks very good
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on February 24, 2015, 11:57:07 am
Looking good  !
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: tiaanv on February 24, 2015, 12:05:23 pm
Promising stuff...
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: dmckenna on February 24, 2015, 12:23:51 pm
Looks good Marc, thanks
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on February 24, 2015, 12:38:40 pm
@ Marc

I note with enthusiasm the announcement of the Device Simulator capability --

Two questions (1) Will it handle plugin specific variables which are used to display information on the front panel ?
(2) When will the mobile app have the capability to display such variables ?

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Otje on February 24, 2015, 12:56:56 pm
Thanks Marc

Good to see that this is being shared on this forum, appreciated.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 24, 2015, 02:17:42 pm
@ Marc

I note with enthusiasm the announcement of the Device Simulator capability --

Two questions (1) Will it handle plugin specific variables which are used to display information on the front panel ?
(2) When will the mobile app have the capability to display such variables ?

1. I will have to find out.
2. I do not have an ETA at this time but it is in the works.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: konradwalsh on February 24, 2015, 03:02:05 pm
Great step in the right direction!!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: gregl on February 24, 2015, 03:39:17 pm
What about the bug tracking? Who's been working on this?
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Marc Shenker on February 24, 2015, 07:44:21 pm
What about the bug tracking? Who's been working on this?

We are working on it, we have not forgotten about it. We are trying to create a system that works well for everyone. I will update everyone as soon as I have something to report. In the mean time I will give the everyone a nudge and remind them that the community has been waiting very patiently.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: andreimios on February 25, 2015, 04:13:33 am
@ Stuart

Quote
(1) Will it handle plugin specific variables which are used to display information on the front panel ?

Device Simulator tool will get all service files and variable found on json file loaded and will allow you to set values for these variables. So let' take as example an alarm partition device. You will display the arming state by "highlighting" the corresponding button on device front panel or by using a variable in json file. In both situations, we need DetailedArmMode variable from urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:AlarmPartition2 service. Setting a value for this variable in "States" tab will be reflected also in "JSON" tab. See attached screenshots.

Another detailed that will be added to Device Simulator and it was not mentioned yet is the URL sent by the UI when you interact with controllers form the front panel. This will be displayed in JSON tab under the simulated device (Screenshots attached also)

All the Bests,
- Andrei - 

Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Colin Burke McClure on February 25, 2015, 02:57:25 pm
What about the bug tracking? Who's been working on this?
I've been driving this deliverable, internally, with several other stakeholders and 3rd party solution providers. We're moving forward to a quick conclusion, along with a few other key announcements (mid-March) surrounding development community support and tools.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: gregl on February 25, 2015, 04:54:18 pm
Thanks Marc and Colin for the updates.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: reneboer on February 26, 2015, 05:37:15 am
Hi Marc, Andrei,

Looks very promising and will sure save a lot of trial and error reloading.

One question, will it become possible to position your own variable(s) in the space between the icon and the right arrow as standard plugins do? It would be even better if then there would be no white space with nothing shown, i.e. if you only have the variable(s) next to the icon.

See the attached example. First is a standard device showing 100% value nicely. Second is a custom device using a negative top value to sort of move the value to the desired position, but showing much empty white space and the third is how a custom device looks using the UI5 compatible json. 

The idea is that this variable and measurement would also show in the app. You would make a lot of developers happy with this.

PS: please also fix how empty variables show on the Variables tab on Firefox, and please just use the HTML input type and not div so HTML special characters can be entered again in variables. Submitted this to support before the last release came out and again after the 7.04 release came out. It is causing a lot of issues and support requests for many of us now.

Cheers Rene
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: vosmont on February 26, 2015, 05:56:30 am
One question, will it become possible to position your own variables in the space between the icon and the right arrow as standard plugins do? It would be even better if then there would be no white space with nothing shown.

That could perhaps be done with a property 'Float' in 'Display'.
As standard devices (dimmer or switch), you would still have to set negative top value, but with float 'right', the button will then correctly be placed.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: andreimios on February 26, 2015, 08:42:32 am
Hi Rene,

Quote
PS: please also fix how empty variables show on the Variables tab on Firefox, and please just use the HTML input type and not div so HTML special characters can be entered again in variables. Submitted this to support before the last release came out and again after the 7.04 release came out. It is causing a lot of issues and support requests for many of us now.

Our web team will investigate this issue and we hope it will be available in the next release.

Quote
One question, will it become possible to position your own variable(s) in the space between the icon and the right arrow as standard plugins do?

This will involve changes in lots of places in UI and for now, for generic devices (plugin devices), controls can be placed underneath the icon.

Best Regards,

- Andrei -
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: pentium on February 26, 2015, 09:26:41 am
Wow, it just doesn't pay to go on vacation.  I come back to find an 18 page dialogue that has broken my heart and my spirit.  I admit that i am only a user and my only contribution was to try to help anyone I could with the limited knowledge that I had acquired from applying the forum contributions to my own experience.  My contribution to vera was to help friends and family order their vera unit and build varying levels of home control for their needs and amusement.  In a way I am glad that I have been away for two months because it gave me an interesting perspective to read all of these pages in one sitting.  Basically vera is losing developers on a daily basis, they have shown nothing towards product bug or development controls, and they still wish to control maintenance via email.  Frankly, from the beginning to the end of this thread, the only thing that is new is that mvc is trying to do some damage control by actually making an appearance. 

I don't know if anyone remembers IBM, but there was always the joke about the woman who had been married multiple years and was still a virgin because her husband was an IBM salesman and all he would do was sit on the bed and tell her how good it was going to be.  I feel like I just read that joke in this thread.

chixxi, I applaud your actions.  I will suffer from them, but given all of the months of issues I always wondered why you and the others continued to bang your heads against the wall trying to deal with an absolute nightmare of attempting to help a community without any proper support from mcv.  Now they are scrambling to put a patch on it but it is very apparent that the writing is on the wall.  I wonder if the veramate developer has committed suicide by now.

I particularly liked how Marc and Colin had the audacity to feel insulted about negative comments regarding their product and support.  Again, from reading the summary, they didn't even admit to an email snafu until much later after everyone was further insulted by being left off of the list of free development resources.  I have always like what Lee Travino said to a golfer that was screaming about his missed shot...  "Son, you aren't good enough to be upset".  Well mcv, neither are you.

I was already becoming concerned that virtually my entire collection of HA application uses were dependent upon volunteer efforts which could easily evaporate into thin air and given their treatment I could never blame them.  Even though it is a fraction of their time spent, I as a user have also invested a great deal of time and money into the use of vera with the expectation that vera was trying to offer a competent product and that the forum would thrive.  I have been in system development for over 30 years and I have never before seen such a vast resource completely ignored by management.  Vera edge, from any out of the box perspective, is dead.  My unused vera3 that I had intended for ui7 conversion is available to anyone that wants it.  My vera lite will be available as soon as I can find a new product worth investing my time and energy into home integration.  I too am ashamed for putting these products into the homes of friends and family and now will be burdened with their replacements as well.

I hate to start a list of the developers that have helped me so much over the years because I know i will miss one and I don't want to cause you guys any more pain.  Thank you and good luck.  Without your apps, I have no use for vera.  I hope mcv's new concept of a point man works out for you.  I am confident there are many behind the scenes conversations going on and I hope they are productive.  I know you are all savvy enough to know whether to believe their rhetoric or whether it is worth it to give them another chance and I only hope that they don't further disappoint you. 

So mcv, you should also recognize that the user community has expectations that you are failing on as well.  From what i have seen in the past, it is perfectly clear that you only care to get a box out and the money in.  You will not survive with that business model.  Your biggest problem is that there aren't enough free edge boxes, or frankly even enough money to begin to compensate these great developers for their time, energy, compassion and outright genius.  You blew it and you are still blowing it.  When are you going to learn that your promises are empty and only make the forum feel more stupid for getting sucked in again?  You should be ashamed, I am ashamed for you.  It would be interesting to know how many mcv employees are jumping ship and floating their resumes all over the world. 

And lastly, I want to thank this particular thread for helping me make the decision to move forward.  I can't thank all of you enough, I have learned so much.  It is now time to go learn something else.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: racarter on February 26, 2015, 06:31:00 pm
@pentium

I think your post has nicely summarised the thoughts of a number of members of this forum, myself included.

In common with several other developers here I've just installed openHAB on a Raspberry Pi 2 and so far the results are encouraging.  The only issue is that I now need to master Java to rewrite my plug-ins for openHAB, but if openHAB continues to improve - and MCV continue to treat their unpaid developers as they do - I can see myself changing platforms sometime in 2015.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on February 26, 2015, 07:09:02 pm
The question is what to move to. I gather OpenHAB can handle the majority of the work that Vera does sans security classes kind of stuff.  I'm not sure the grass will be any greener on that side or any other. I haven't heard of other vendors to try and move to. Vera isn't at a price point to expect miracles. For me, the whole appeal is/was the developers and those guys freely sharing their sweat and making diverse devices work in this ecosystem. I'm not sure how representative the sample of Vera forum users is to their overall base -- probably not so much.  It just seems rather silly to me for Vera to not put a large number of resources into cultivating this developer group to push their product forward.  But I'm a guy who buys a 4k tv and upgrades his graphics card to push out (close to) 4k gaming on his HTPC. We aren't the normal customers. or perhaps I'm not. they just are frustrating, their lack of response to customers speakers volumes. well, to me, anyway.. for what it's worth
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on February 26, 2015, 07:46:51 pm
The question is what to move to. I gather OpenHAB can handle the majority of the work that Vera does sans security classes kind of stuff.  I'm not sure the grass will be any greener on that side or any other. I haven't heard of other vendors to try and move to. Vera isn't at a price point to expect miracles. For me, the whole appeal is/was the developers and those guys freely sharing their sweat and making diverse devices work in this ecosystem. I'm not sure how representative the sample of Vera forum users is to their overall base -- probably not so much.  It just seems rather silly to me for Vera to not put a large number of resources into cultivating this developer group to push their product forward.  But I'm a guy who buys a 4k tv and upgrades his graphics card to push out (close to) 4k gaming on his HTPC. We aren't the normal customers. or perhaps I'm not. they just are frustrating, their lack of response to customers speakers volumes. well, to me, anyway.. for what it's worth

I'm surprised after reading through this thread that some are still upset (no offense @pentium). They've actually been quite responsive as of late and are pushing out monthly firmware updates (for UI7). They are also pushing out developer resources and are keeping us apprised of those things.

Is the hardware there yet? No, but at this point, I'm optimistic with the back and forth and hoping that maybe the hardware 'might' get better with the next iteration. Its not perfect now, but it is enough for my current needs.

They've made mistakes and made bad promises in the past, so I understand that a lot of people aren't very trusting. The evidence as of late though shows that perhaps they are seeing the error of their ways.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: macrho on February 26, 2015, 07:55:43 pm
I'm surprised after reading through this thread that some are still upset (no offense @pentium). They've actually been quite responsive as of late and are pushing out monthly firmware updates (for UI7). They are also pushing out developer resources and are keeping us apprised of those things.

Is the hardware there yet? No, but at this point, I'm optimistic with the back and forth and hoping that maybe the hardware 'might' get better with the next iteration. Its not perfect now, but it is enough for my current needs.

They've made mistakes and made bad promises in the past, so I understand that a lot of people aren't very trusting. The evidence as of late though shows that perhaps they are seeing the error of their ways.

Perhaps not upset but disappointed. Granted, it's going to take them a while to change course but as one sees more developers bailing or stopping development, one takes a bit of pause.I still can't rely on all my automation from Vera. Perhaps 8-10% of the time I'll find my simple scenes (turn outside lights on at dusk and shut them off at dawn) not firing. Sure, I bought PLEG but shouldn't something as simple as that work in Vera? maybe my expectations are too high :D  but the proof is in the pudding and as more respected members of the forum talk about positive developments, I"ll be happy to stay the course but I don't get that warm, fuzzy feeling. Perhaps that's because I need to refill my snifter of bourbon
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: vosmont on March 05, 2015, 06:03:34 pm
Hello,

are there some news concerning the simulator and next firmware ?

I started to rework my plugins for UI7 and develop others, but I will stop for now.
The dashboard view is not usable for complex plugin :
- the content is limited to a height of 100 pixels
- scenegroup is limited to 33 pixel height (1 unit), while multi_state button is 55 pixel height (1.5 unit)

have you planned to change plugin dashboard view ? (screenshots from the simulator suggest it will be)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: slajgaj on March 06, 2015, 10:01:34 am
Where is this "plugin" ?:)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on March 09, 2015, 11:28:08 am
The device simulator will be in the next firmware release which will be available soon. (I do not have a date yet for the release I will post in the official announcement area when it becomes available.)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on March 09, 2015, 11:36:04 am
Marc, if you haven't already, can you check out the Virtual Panel plugin thread? Any chance the MIOS Android/iOS apps could include support for that one in the next or 1st after next release?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on March 09, 2015, 06:35:14 pm
Marc, if you haven't already, can you check out the Virtual Panel plugin thread? Any chance the MIOS Android/iOS apps could include support for that one in the next or 1st after next release?

Thanks. I passed it up the food chain.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on March 09, 2015, 06:38:46 pm
UI7 ▾ Version 7.0.5 (1.7.541/1.7.1018) is now live and available for download.

The device simulator is in this update.

The release notes can be found here: http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/articles/1908417-ui7-%E2%96%BE-version-7-0-5-1-7-541-1-7-1018-%E2%96%BE-mar-9-2015
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: ServiceXp on March 09, 2015, 06:52:17 pm
UI7 ▾ Version 7.0.5 (1.7.541/1.7.1018) is now live and available for download.

The device simulator is in this update.

The release notes can be found here: http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/articles/1908417-ui7-%E2%96%BE-version-7-0-5-1-7-541-1-7-1018-%E2%96%BE-mar-9-2015 (http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/articles/1908417-ui7-%E2%96%BE-version-7-0-5-1-7-541-1-7-1018-%E2%96%BE-mar-9-2015)

Wow, that's a big update. Nice work!
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Stuart on March 09, 2015, 08:08:51 pm
UI7 ▾ Version 7.0.5 (1.7.541/1.7.1018) is now live and available for download.

The device simulator is in this update.

The release notes can be found here: http://support.getvera.com/customer/portal/articles/1908417-ui7-%E2%96%BE-version-7-0-5-1-7-541-1-7-1018-%E2%96%BE-mar-9-2015

I do not want to sound negative but .....

Unfortunately - this release it broke / redefined the behavior of the UI prior to the upgrade.   In Chrome:  Attachment 1  (2 different variables) used to display as separate lines - now they are 'mushed' together.  Attachment 2 shows as two lines (I'm guessing it wrapped) - but of course the simulator (attachment 3) says it should look like one line .....   BUT, that's not the way the JSON is defined  .....

Can we PLEASE have some decent documentation on how the JSON is supposed to be formatted and how it's supposed to affect the UI ?   At this point I have no idea whether I have a bug, you have a bug, the behavior has been redefined, or the phase of the moon is wrong ....

Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Marc Shenker on March 09, 2015, 08:33:07 pm
Stuart, I forwarded your post to the Dev Team to look at first thing.

Marc Shenker ▾ Training Manager
 
Vera Control, Ltd. ▾ Smarter Home Control
www.getvera.com ▾ marc@getvera.com ▾ +1 (866) 966-2272

Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on March 09, 2015, 08:49:33 pm
It's broken the Virtual Panel plug layout elements as well. Made a right mess of the layout. See before and after pics attached. Note that a button and a new variable were added after I took the before pic but the layout stayed the same.



Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Stuart on March 09, 2015, 08:55:42 pm
Stuart, I forwarded your post to the Dev Team to look at first thing.

Marc Shenker ▾ Training Manager
 
Vera Control, Ltd. ▾ Smarter Home Control
www.getvera.com ▾ marc@getvera.com ▾ +1 (866) 966-2272

Thanks -- Attatched is the JSON in question
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: andreimios on March 10, 2015, 07:04:12 am
Hi all,

Besides Device Simulator, we added in 7.0.5 new controls and new rules for positioning device controls for generic devices(plugin devices). Details can be found here :

http://wiki.mios.com/index.php/Luup_plugins:_Static_JSON_file#Position_device_controls_for_generic_devices

The rules for UI5 have not been changed and should not be affected by the new features added for UI7.

We apologize for any inconvenience caused by the delay in publishing documentation.

All the Bests,

- Andrei -
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: reneboer on March 10, 2015, 07:46:48 am
Hi Andrei,
The way UI7 is positioning things on the panel has been different in each release. I had to tinker for each to get it all to align right again. Even now the one x means one button width that applies to UI5 does not apply here, and it seems if you had something on a second row it is now all chained for as long as it fits. Not a problem as unless what you want to show is totally trivial you have to use a different JSON for UI5/6 and UI7 anyway. I do hope you will be sticking to this one for the future.

One issue that is still not fixed is that the variables tab are not using HTML input and because of that it has become impossible to use the variables tab to enter data because you will end up with invisible <br> characters in the variables and you cannot enter any HTML special characters. this means that for every plugin we now have to make a separate js to collect the required variables adding much coding effort to every plugin. It must be a trivial fix on your end and it was working correctly two releases back so please fix (asking for the third time here)

but, the layout does look more compact. Something many people asked for. now I'm going to play with that new JSON test functions.

Cheers Rene.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: reneboer on March 10, 2015, 08:28:32 am
First finding on the JSON simulator.
1) the 'Open in Device Simulator' link on the Luup files page is not working for me. It shows an error 'Cannot read contents of ' for any I try.
2) it seems you must remove the definition for the other tabs and eventlist2 or you get an Invalid JSON error.

Other than that, it does safe time. Now have something for the device tabs control view and it is complete  :)

Cheers Rene
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: andreimios on March 10, 2015, 12:39:51 pm
Hi Rene,

Quote
One issue that is still not fixed is that the variables tab are not using HTML input and because of that it has become impossible to use the variables tab to enter data because you will end up with invisible <br> characters in the variables and you cannot enter any HTML special characters. this means that for every plugin we now have to make a separate js to collect the required variables adding much coding effort to every plugin. It must be a trivial fix on your end and it was working correctly two releases back so please fix (asking for the third time here)

Our web team worked hard to fix the bugs all of you reported and maybe this one was somehow missed by them. I will increase the priority for it and make sure it will be fixed in the next firmware release.

Quote
The way UI7 is positioning things on the panel has been different in each release. I had to tinker for each to get it all to align right again. Even now the one x means one button width that applies to UI5 does not apply here, and it seems if you had something on a second row it is now all chained for as long as it fits. Not a problem as unless what you want to show is totally trivial you have to use a different JSON for UI5/6 and UI7 anyway. I do hope you will be sticking to this one for the future.

I know that there was lots of changes on how controls are displayed, but from now on this is the way it should be.

Quote
1) the 'Open in Device Simulator' link on the Luup files page is not working for me. It shows an error 'Cannot read contents of ' for any I try.

Reported on our side.

Quote
2) it seems you must remove the definition for the other tabs and eventlist2 or you get an Invalid JSON error.

I don't think the eventlist2 is the issue here, I tried with the json for Lutron Keypad that also have eventlist2 in it and had no issue. Please send me the json you tried and I will do some debugging to see what is wrong.

Best Regards,

- Andrei -
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on March 10, 2015, 01:13:49 pm
Marc, Colin, and/or Andrei,

The following is a bit off-topic, but all 3 of you are on this thread, so I am going to hi-jack it really quick.

I have a question about the "users" for UI7. If I recall correctly, you have to set up a new user account when you upgrade from UI5 -> UI7. However, you can't reuse your email address. Is this ever going to be addressed? I'd have to have to use a different email address if my last one will never be used again.

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this has already been addressed)
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on March 10, 2015, 02:09:53 pm
Marc, Colin, and/or Andrei,

The following is a bit off-topic, but all 3 of you are on this thread, so I am going to hi-jack it really quick.

I have a question about the "users" for UI7. If I recall correctly, you have to set up a new user account when you upgrade from UI5 -> UI7. However, you can't reuse your email address. Is this ever going to be addressed? I'd have to have to use a different email address if my last one will never be used again.

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this has already been addressed)

I use the same email, username only the password has to be different in order to route properly.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on March 10, 2015, 02:12:39 pm
Marc, Colin, and/or Andrei,

The following is a bit off-topic, but all 3 of you are on this thread, so I am going to hi-jack it really quick.

I have a question about the "users" for UI7. If I recall correctly, you have to set up a new user account when you upgrade from UI5 -> UI7. However, you can't reuse your email address. Is this ever going to be addressed? I'd have to have to use a different email address if my last one will never be used again.

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this has already been addressed)

I use the same email, username only the password has to be different in order to route properly.

My mistake...it was username then that has to be different..since you have to log in from different places though, that requirement in and of itself seems kinda dumb to me(I don't think you can log into UI7 from cp.mios.com not UI5 from home.getVera.com). Perhaps the background login (apps) uses the same servers?
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: integlikewhoa on March 10, 2015, 02:14:42 pm
Marc, Colin, and/or Andrei,

The following is a bit off-topic, but all 3 of you are on this thread, so I am going to hi-jack it really quick.

I have a question about the "users" for UI7. If I recall correctly, you have to set up a new user account when you upgrade from UI5 -> UI7. However, you can't reuse your email address. Is this ever going to be addressed? I'd have to have to use a different email address if my last one will never be used again.

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this has already been addressed)

I use the same email, username only the password has to be different in order to route properly.

My mistake...it was username then that has to be different..since you have to log in from different places though, that requirement in and of itself seems kinda dumb to me(I don't think you can log into UI7 from cp.mios.com not UI5 from home.getVera.com). Perhaps the background login (apps) uses the same servers?

My user name is the same also. Only thing that is different is the password. I have vera's on both ui5 and ui7 right now. If I login into home.getvera.com but use my ui5 password it will redirect me to my only vera left on UI5.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: SirMeili on March 10, 2015, 02:36:29 pm
Ok, thanks @integlikewhoa, I'll shut up now....LOL
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: reneboer on March 10, 2015, 05:26:43 pm
Hi Rene,

Quote
One issue that is still not fixed is that the variables tab are not using HTML input and because of that it has become impossible to use the variables tab to enter data because you will end up with invisible <br> characters in the variables and you cannot enter any HTML special characters. this means that for every plugin we now have to make a separate js to collect the required variables adding much coding effort to every plugin. It must be a trivial fix on your end and it was working correctly two releases back so please fix (asking for the third time here)

Our web team worked hard to fix the bugs all of you reported and maybe this one was somehow missed by them. I will increase the priority for it and make sure it will be fixed in the next firmware release.

Thanks. I know you do as I again see one I reported you did fix. Tops. I will try finding them though  ;D
Quote

Quote
The way UI7 is positioning things on the panel has been different in each release. I had to tinker for each to get it all to align right again. Even now the one x means one button width that applies to UI5 does not apply here, and it seems if you had something on a second row it is now all chained for as long as it fits. Not a problem as unless what you want to show is totally trivial you have to use a different JSON for UI5/6 and UI7 anyway. I do hope you will be sticking to this one for the future.

I know that there was lots of changes on how controls are displayed, but from now on this is the way it should be.
Great Thanks.
Quote

Quote
1) the 'Open in Device Simulator' link on the Luup files page is not working for me. It shows an error 'Cannot read contents of ' for any I try.

Reported on our side.

Quote
2) it seems you must remove the definition for the other tabs and eventlist2 or you get an Invalid JSON error.

I don't think the eventlist2 is the issue here, I tried with the json for Lutron Keypad that also have eventlist2 in it and had no issue. Please send me the json you tried and I will do some debugging to see what is wrong.
I found it. One pesky comma too many. For some reason JSON lint did not trip over it.
Would it be possible to add a line number to the error message?
Quote

Best Regards,

- Andrei -

Cheers Rene
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: BOFH on March 10, 2015, 06:28:11 pm
My email and user name are identical for UI5 and Ui7 as well. The only difference is the password. One has a 'special' character in it, the other does not.

I do believe the UI5 and Ui6/UI7 credential databases are different. (correct me if I am wrong Marc, Andrei?) So if you have userid XXYYZZ in UI5 but someone else has already registered userid XXYYZZ in Ui6/Ui7 then you are SOL. I was lucky that mine wasn't taken yet.
Title: Re: UI7 - "Dear MiOS Development Partner" email
Post by: Marc Shenker on March 10, 2015, 07:25:49 pm
My email and user name are identical for UI5 and Ui7 as well. The only difference is the password. One has a 'special' character in it, the other does not.

I do believe the UI5 and Ui6/UI7 credential databases are different. (correct me if I am wrong Marc, Andrei?) So if you have userid XXYYZZ in UI5 but someone else has already registered userid XXYYZZ in Ui6/Ui7 then you are SOL. I was lucky that mine wasn't taken yet.

UI6 and UI7 have a higher degree of security than UI5, the explanation is long, please don't make me explain it, and run off a different back ends. UI6 and 7 require more secure/complex passwords than IU5 did.
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Stuart on April 20, 2015, 12:55:15 pm
What about the bug tracking? Who's been working on this?

We are working on it, we have not forgotten about it. We are trying to create a system that works well for everyone. I will update everyone as soon as I have something to report. In the mean time I will give the everyone a nudge and remind them that the community has been waiting very patiently.

Marc --

Anything to report on bug fix logging / reporting ?  It's been a while now ......    It looks like the latest upgrade broke at least one thing (notifications in a scene case Luup to crash).
Title: Re: UI7 - &quot;Dear MiOS Development Partner&quot; email
Post by: Marc Shenker on April 22, 2015, 10:40:01 am
Marc --

Anything to report on bug fix logging / reporting ?  It's been a while now ......    It looks like the latest upgrade broke at least one thing (notifications in a scene case Luup to crash).
[/quote]

Stuart, we are still working on it; integrating this with our current system is a challenge but I am confident that we can.