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General => Lighting & Load Control => Topic started by: nutshellml on March 07, 2016, 02:19:08 pm

Title: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 07, 2016, 02:19:08 pm
Afternoon all.  I'm awaiting my VeraPlus HA controller and also planning a remodel of the kitchen/living areas.  I am putting recessed lighting in the ceiling, and also adding some flood lights outside.  I want to have them integrated via Zwave or similar and there are many many choices.  Looking for some advice on what I need to look for in a light switches (LED 3 way and LED dimmers) , in a outlet, and also the best way to wire up the recessed lighting.  Any specific "must gets" "must check for this" or advice on brands would be greatly appreciated.

Also, any general advice regarding how you did your set up would be great.  I'm opening walls and remodeling the entire kitchen living area so want to take advantage to make sure I get it right.  (I will be using a licenses electrician, but going to assume he's not to up on the Home Automation / ZWave "thing").

THANKS!
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: rwalker on March 07, 2016, 02:35:13 pm
Your best bet is integration at the light switch.  This allows easy upgrades and as technology changes, easy migration.  I have used just about every Z-wave switch there is and the GE/Jasco are the best value.  Upside is you can buy them at Lowes, so you don't have to buy in bulk if you want to slowly expand.  They handle LED and 3 way setups with no problem.

Roy
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 07, 2016, 02:46:24 pm
Thanks, so best place for the money on switches is Lowes?  Nothing else online, I would probably get maybe 4-5 switches to start, not sure where the "bulk" number starts. ha..
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on March 07, 2016, 03:10:51 pm
I don't have GE/Jasco switches because they don't support instant status. I have all of my recessed fixtures on Leviton dimmers. I've also replaced all of the bulbs with LEDs, because one set of eight is on most of the time that someone is home and represents at least a little operating savings.

For more information on instant status, maybe look at this thread (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,36441.0/topicseen.html).
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: MLeBaugh on March 07, 2016, 03:13:49 pm
Thanks, so best place for the money on switches is Lowes?  Nothing else online, I would probably get maybe 4-5 switches to start, not sure where the "bulk" number starts. ha..
You can get the GE switches at Amazon for roughly the same price as Lowes. Sometimes you can get used amazon warehouse for cheaper, but generally Lowes has a good price. I use the dimmers and on/off switches with LEDs no problem.

I got most of mine through Amazon warehouse deals, but I did have to send two back for physical damage. Someone obviously hooked it up wrong and burned one side... How Amazon though that was OK to resell is beyond me.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 07, 2016, 04:01:28 pm
I don't have GE/Jasco switches because they don't support instant status. this thread (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,36441.0/topicseen.html).

After reading about the instant status, I think that is something important.  For what you have w/ your recessed and instant status, if I understood correctly from the other post about it, You can set the switch to instantly report and on/off to vera which would then trigger "something" which could be, if it's after say 8pm turn on to 100% brightness or 75% brightness.  Or once switch it turned off, turn off the other "living room" lights.  Am I understanding correctly?

Title: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on March 08, 2016, 03:12:27 am
After reading about the instant status, I think that is something important.  For what you have w/ your recessed and instant status, if I understood correctly from the other post about it...
Well, first, decouple the thoughts about recessed lighting and Z-Wave switch type; with a few exceptions, a Z-Wave dimmer should be appropriate for most standard-voltage lights, whether recessed or otherwise.

You can set the switch to instantly report and on/off to vera which would then trigger "something" which could be, if it's after say 8pm turn on to 100% brightness or 75% brightness..
Switches that support instant status report status to the controller instantly. To my knowledge, there is no parameter to turn it off, and I can't think of a reason to anyway... but yes, it gives you the capability to trigger other "things" based on the operation of that switch. Typically, those things are not actions for the lights directly controlled by that switch; that other thread discusses a weird use case.
Or once switch it turned off, turn off the other "living room" lights.  Am I understanding correctly?
Exactly.

If using switches that don't support instant status, you cannot depend on the switch to trigger the other action(s) immediately. if the timing of the action isn't important to you, then by all means use any Z-Wave switch; eventually, the controller will poll the switch for status and carry out your intended action, but the time that takes will vary.

Also, some of the newer, cheaper series of Leviton switches (usually denoted as working with "Wink" systems and part numbers that start with a "D") don't support instant status, either. They're fine for bathroom lights, or other peripheral lights that will probably never need to trigger an action... but everywhere else, I only want instant status switches. YMMV
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Timon on March 09, 2016, 09:45:49 am
I don't have GE/Jasco switches because they don't support instant status. this thread (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,36441.0/topicseen.html).

After reading about the instant status, I think that is something important.  For what you have w/ your recessed and instant status, if I understood correctly from the other post about it, You can set the switch to instantly report and on/off to vera which would then trigger "something" which could be, if it's after say 8pm turn on to 100% brightness or 75% brightness.  Or once switch it turned off, turn off the other "living room" lights.  Am I understanding correctly?
Jasco did tell me, this came from the product manager, that their new series dimmers and switches will have instant status but they don't yet have a release date.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: dzmiller on March 09, 2016, 11:11:44 am
I suggest, in the spec, you require a neutral wire in every switch box. Also, tell the electrician to never wire z-wave devices hot.

Plan for a wall mounted android/ipad scene controller in a central area. Planning is necessary to power this device unobtrusively (where to hide the wall wart that will permanently power the tablet).

I would seldom use a leviton multi-button scene controller in new construction design. I would never use z-wave switches that require a traveler wire in new construction. You get some labor saving from the electrician by avoiding conventional 3-4-5 way circuits. You can also reprogram some switch function if you avoid conventional 3-4-5 way circuits and use z-wave for multi-location light control.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 09, 2016, 03:29:53 pm
I suggest, in the spec, you require a neutral wire in every switch box. Also, tell the electrician to never wire z-wave devices hot.

Plan for a wall mounted android/ipad scene controller in a central area. Planning is necessary to power this device unobtrusively (where to hide the wall wart that will permanently power the tablet).

I would seldom use a leviton multi-button scene controller in new construction design. I would never use z-wave switches that require a traveler wire in new construction. You get some labor saving from the electrician by avoiding conventional 3-4-5 way circuits. You can also reprogram some switch function if you avoid conventional 3-4-5 way circuits and use z-wave for multi-location light control.

DZMILLER, thanks for the info, that's what I was looking for regarding running a negative and the tablet spot (do you recommend any specific tablets?)

One thing i wasn't clear on was not using the leviton controller in new construction and also how/why the labor savings for 3/4/5 way circuits.  Could you possible explain a little more in detail that aspect.  Would the zwave programs limit the need for 3way, I'm not sure how.  Any additional specifics are appreciated.

THANKS!
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: dzmiller on March 09, 2016, 08:45:09 pm
I suggest a tablet that matches your smartphone operating system, which I assume is either android or apple. Small or big is your choice, it doesn't have to be a new or powerful model.

You don't need to have any 3/4/5 way wiring with the certain zwave devices. 1) Design your lighting and switches 2) The switch location closest to the light provides the power to the lamp.(Linear WD500Z-1)   2) Add scene controllers switches at locations where you want additional switch control (Linear WT00Z-1).

So -
WD500Z-1 has load control.
WT00Z-1 has no load, it is simply powered by line voltage and is programmed to control zwave devices.
These two devices look essentially identical. The WT00Z-1 works just like a regular switched physically wired to whatever it is currently controlling. That could be one light, or all zwave lights.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: WhyMe on March 10, 2016, 08:20:09 am
I'm curious why people are against having travlers for multi-way switches? To me it is a benefit should the HA system lockup, malfunction, or die, I can still control the lights from all the places I would normally.

Conversely, the benefit I see to having scene controller switches would be if you need the extra z-wave repeaters to improve the network mesh. Also, you could get some extra buttons for additional scene triggers.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on March 10, 2016, 08:28:49 am
I'm curious why people are against having travlers for multi-way switches? To me it is a benefit should the HA system lockup, malfunction, or die, I can still control the lights from all the places I would normally.
I'm not anti-traveler, but I will say this... in every location in my home that there was a 3-way switch configuration, I've found another use for the slot. Mostly for scene controllers. The most notable one was some entryway sconces that had a 3-way switch on a post as you enter the front door, and its companion switch along the same plane about 8 feet away. Having a 3-way switch here just didn't make sense to me if I can use Z-wave instead, so now there's a scene controller at the entry. And I believe, because I'm using all Leviton Viza RF hardware, the switches and controllers will work independently from the controller anyway... not that HA lockup/malfunction/death has ever been a problem.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: dzmiller on March 10, 2016, 08:52:30 am
I'm curious why people are against having travlers for multi-way switches? To me it is a benefit should the HA system lockup, malfunction, or die, I can still control the lights from all the places I would normally.
..........

The scene controller doesn't require a working HA system to operate lights. Once associated (through Vera or a minimote), the system can function permanently without a central controller.

The advantage is that the scene control can be reprogrammed. For example, the scene controller dimmer(WT00Z) is initially used as a conventional three way for kitchen lights. Then the kitchen table light is added to that control group. Then it's decided that light control from that switch isn't necessary, and the dimmer is set to control music volume through the Denon Vera app.. Later it is decided that this dimmer scene controller will be used to control all the outside lights.

Can't do that with a GE slave switch.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 24, 2016, 02:18:51 pm
So -
WD500Z-1 has load control.
WT00Z-1 has no load, it is simply powered by line voltage and is programmed to control zwave devices.
These two devices look essentially identical. The WT00Z-1 works just like a regular switched physically wired to whatever it is currently controlling. That could be one light, or all zwave lights.

So with this setup, what is the reaction time from switching the WT00Z-1 to when the load (light) would switch on/off? 
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Z-Waver on March 24, 2016, 03:22:23 pm
Half a second.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 24, 2016, 03:24:44 pm
Thanks, and then touching on the "wire 3 way switches or not" issue, basically I could have my electrician wire 3way switches then if I decide not to utilize the 3 way wiring I can just pop in the WT00Z-1, correct?
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 24, 2016, 04:57:24 pm
@nutshellml
Whilst considering all the z-wave kit, I think you should consider an RGBW controller and go for worktop and kickstrip lighting with RGBW LED strip. You get great lighting as well as mood lighting. Just look at some images on various lighting websites to see how god it looks. I wish I was redoing my kitchen so I could add this.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Z-Waver on March 24, 2016, 05:06:47 pm
Thanks, and then touching on the "wire 3 way switches or not" issue, basically I could have my electrician wire 3way switches then if I decide not to utilize the 3 way wiring I can just pop in the WT00Z-1, correct?
Probably. The issue is that there are certain 3-way wiring scenarios that might prevent you from utilizing the WT00Z-1.

If your 3-way wiring looks like the attached diagram(fairly typical for modern wiring), then you'll have no problems.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 24, 2016, 07:24:05 pm
Thanks!!! 

Re: kick strip lighting.  Great advice. Love the look.  Do you recommend any specific brands. I see some led that are very expensive. Others very low priced. 
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 24, 2016, 07:30:31 pm
I don't see any reason for very expensive but make sure you get maximum LED per metre and check output lumens.
You will need a DC power supply. If you want long runs, go 24V to reduce volt drop down the length but otherwise 12V is cheaper.
Parallel the strips but make sure DC supply is man enough for all. You can get away with one RGBW controller as long as max current is not exceeded.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 24, 2016, 08:11:07 pm
I don't see any reason for very expensive but make sure you get maximum LED per metre and check output lumens.
You will need a DC power supply. If you want long runs, go 24V to reduce volt drop down the length but otherwise 12V is cheaper.
Parallel the strips but make sure DC supply is man enough for all. You can get away with one RGBW controller as long as max current is not exceeded.

Thanks!  I'll do some research on the max length for the 12V run.  The longest "run" in my kitchen would be about 7'.  This looks great, i checked out a bunch of google images.  My question would be (to you) or for my own research or electrician familiar with LED strip lighting is when I have a bend and a break in the run for the stove do I need to have additional controllers for each run.  And when I do the island assuming that would also be on another run then all connected to ZWAVE switch/power and controlled together.  Will I be able to control color and dim setting from my Vera via the ZWAVE?
Also have to figure out where to hide the controller... I guess would be under the bottom drawer or pullout...

This place is about 40min drive from me: http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/lg_display.cfm/catalog/Master_Catalog_Vol_42/page/663 looks like they have good selection, wondering if i need there controller or I can use the Fibraro RGB controller.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 25, 2016, 05:16:59 am
To control from the z-wave you will need the Fibaro (other ways may be possible via plugin and other kit but Fibaro is straight forward.
You can control direct but the RGBW plugin gives a colour wheel control too.
7ft long should be fine at 12V
Corners can be done using corner pieces but watch total length.
Long runs can be fed from both ends simultaneously alowing double run length.
One Fibaro can run all lengths but there is a maximum current allowed. You can go higher but you need a DC repeater  (the Fibaro controls this and this feeds strips).
Basically, any length is possible based on DC supplies and individual strip lengths. It is even possible to use multiple reaters all controlled from the same Fibaro if it works out simpler for cabling.
For kick strip level, I recomend the outdoor type strips as it is more protected and easy to clean. Self adhesive is easy to fit. The RGBW wiring is flat cable and easy to run flat out of site.
One warning, I found that my LED strip had the Red and Green connecters cross labelled which gave me some strange effects until I worked it out. Others have had the same problem  so it may be common. Skill with a soldering iron helps with the connections to the strips.

I have three lengths under my eaves on the house. The DC supply feeds the Fibaro and I take three runs away from it. One to each strip. In my case the total load is easily within the capability of the Fibaro.Becasue the DC supply and Fibaro are in the attic, I use another z-wave control to turn on and off the DC but in a kitchen you will probably not want to do this.
I use a scene to turn on the DC supply and 10 seconds later turn on the strips. Another scene turns off the strips and 10 seconds later turns off the DC.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: nutshellml on March 25, 2016, 10:55:20 am
Great info.. Thanks again for the suggestion.  Let me ask question, maybe obvious once I start looking to make the purchase, but once the LED strip ends and I need to wire say three separate strips (one from island, "L" run, and small other run) to the Fibaro, what method/power strip will I need if I put the Fibaro in the basement (udner the kitchen/cabinets).  about maybe 5-8' from each LED end to the Fibaro?
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 25, 2016, 11:33:03 am
If I understand the question. You use RGBW extension cable (basically 5 core ribbon cable). In my case I soldered this directly onto the LED tape but it is possible to get cable with connectors which somehow clip onto the LED tape (I am not this works with the outdoor though). Then you connect all these to the Fibaro in Parallel.
Just a thought, make sure you get the correct polarity LED tape (I think it needs to be common positive but don't hold me to that), most tapes are the right sort but the other is around.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: curiousB on March 26, 2016, 08:14:29 am
I would have electrician do the following; 1) neutral wire I every box. No switch legs without neutral. 2) ask for oversize boxes at switch locations. Some zwave switches are large and if you use a module like aeon you need more space. I prefer 4x4" metal boxes with a mud ring to get good volume for all the stuff in single location switches and receptacles. They make deeper boxes and deeper mud rings as well to give you even more room inside. 3) I would wire travelers to allow fallback to conventional mechanical switches. This is what the electrician best understands and then you (or a future owner) are grandfathered if they don't want zwave.


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Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 26, 2016, 08:48:02 am
I prefer 4x4" metal boxes with a mud ring to get good volume for all the stuff in single location switches and receptacles.
I prefer plastic back boxes. Less chance of blocking z-wave signal and better range. I only have two metal boxes and every one of my z-wave devices can  talk directly to vera. No need to rely on the mesh and faster communication.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: curiousB on March 27, 2016, 12:38:53 pm
I prefer 4x4" metal boxes with a mud ring to get good volume for all the stuff in single location switches and receptacles.
I prefer plastic back boxes. Less chance of blocking z-wave signal and better range. I only have two metal boxes and every one of my z-wave devices can  talk directly to vera. No need to rely on the mesh and faster communication.

I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with nmc (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit in residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: curiousB on March 27, 2016, 12:41:59 pm
I prefer plastic back boxes. Less chance of blocking z-wave signal and better range. I only have two metal boxes and every one of my z-wave devices can  talk directly to vera. No need to rely on the mesh and faster communication.

I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with NMC (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit in residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: curiousB on March 27, 2016, 12:44:06 pm
I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with NMC (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit for residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: curiousB on March 27, 2016, 12:45:56 pm
I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with NMC (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit for residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.


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Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 27, 2016, 01:16:27 pm
I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with NMC (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit for residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.


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I know you can get away with it most times but I only raised it just in case. I do know of occasions where it is the straw that broke he camels back and communication was lost.
I have one location with a metal box where it does communicate with Vera okay but I have lost an association link with another device. It works hanging  out of the box but not screwed in.
Title: Re: Recommended switches/outlets for recessed LEDs & General Remodel Advice on equip
Post by: Z-Waver on March 27, 2016, 05:19:35 pm
I doubt metal box makes much difference when used with NMC (Romex). There is plenty of RF leakage on a metal box given the gaps. In any event the antenna tends to be oriented for radiation out the front plate anyway.

I live in IL where conduit for residential is code. I don't have any rf limitations with zwave.
While it's great that you have not experienced any issues, others should not be misguided that metal boxes do not have an impact. Metal boxes definitely affect the Z-Wave signal.