The Vera Community forums have moved!

General => Getting Started & Initial Setup => Topic started by: Henk on June 22, 2011, 03:19:03 pm

Title: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 22, 2011, 03:19:03 pm
This is a reference to basic Z-Wave routing options since version 1.1.1245 offers many options with all kinds of effects.

A little warning, im used to point to existing documentation as much as i can, to prevent duplicate information and provide an easy single point of update when certain information changes.

This thread was inspired by some users who had/have issues with the new way of routing available as of version 1.1.1245. Also the new Z-wave firmware version add mutliple options to control manual and automatic routing.

As a starting point i recommend these two threads on the wiki:

http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Migrate_To_Z-wave_version_452
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Heal_Network

The 1.1.1245 section of this page provides more info on issues tackled with version 1245:
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Release_Notes.

Many users have a mix of mains and battery powered devices. The battery powered devices go into "sleep"  mode when not in use and only awake on events/triggers or on certain intervals to save batteries.

The biggest problem users run into are:
1. Automatically reconfiguring devices based upon detected devices (altering the routing information for devices)
2. Battery powered devices are not detected during automatic heals (and therefore dropped from the routing table)
3. Users get lost in the many tickboxes and their functions.

Resulting in unwanted /automatically updated routing information in devices that is not in all cases consistent with the meshed network you may have built for your z-wave network.

I would like to reference these threads:
http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6891.0 (also providing solutions)

Descriptions of Vera behavior:

1. http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6879.0
2. http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6887.0
3. http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6809.0
4. http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6813.0



Current available settings in the options tab of your z-wave device are:


Current available settings in the repair tab of your z-wave device are:


So if you have issues with routing or similar experiences as described by others in the threads i referred to, hopefully this will give some guidance on how to set your routing.

Henk

Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: robinnes on June 22, 2011, 04:16:28 pm
Simple way to disable the automated 2am nightly "heal" on Vera2 is to uncheck the box for "Use MiOS routing instead of Z-Wave (requires 4.5)" in the Options tab of the Z-Wave Device box.
Should help in preventing battery operated devices dropping out of the system after the nightly "heal" process.
***Remember to hit "save" on top right of dashboard when done***
Title: Z-wave healing and routing explained (manual routing)
Post by: Henk on June 26, 2011, 03:09:52 pm
As of firmware 1.1.1245, Vera offers an update of the Z-wave version to 3.20 that supports manual routing.
In theory you should be able to set the nodes number in the advanced tab of the node that needs to beam the signal. (there is a short explanation in the manual routing section of the Z-wave debugging page on the wiki.

You should be able to set manual routing yourselves using the sparse wiki information shown below:
Quote
If you are using Z-Wave 3.20, you can go to the advanced settings for a device, add a variable with the service id: urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:ZWaveDevice1 and the variable name: ManualRoute and the value is a dot separated list of Z-Wave node ID's, just like the AutoRoute variable

These features have been used little and there is not much documentation, but you could check the wiki for some extra info on zwave routing.

Here:  
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/ZWave_Debugging#Manual_routing
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Z-Wave#Topology_and_routing

And here:
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Heal_Network
Title: Z-wave healing only when routes fail during a day
Post by: Henk on June 26, 2011, 03:27:08 pm
One of the causes of 2am automatic heals seems to have to do with ppl having a mix of mains powered and battery powered devices.

Because battery powered devices (like 3in1 sensors and locks) sleep when not in use, Vera cannot verify routes through these nodes.
This results in "broken" routes and causes Vera to do an automated nightly (approx 2 am) heal to try and recover form the broken routes.

This has been verified by MCV tech support on troubleshooting @flyboybob's routing issues.
The most important piece of information was:

Quote
MCV Support says "...you should know that the nightly heal runs only if during the day routing issues were detected..."

This makes sense as to why some of us are seeing these automated heals are others are not.
In plain English; the algorithm appears to be "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Unfortunately the "if it is broke, fix it" algorithm poses its own issues in return with battery powered devices.

Reference here:
http://forum.mios.com/index.php?topic=6887.msg44188#msg44188
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: robinnes on June 27, 2011, 10:27:28 am
Nice work Henk!

The "Heal" that breaks is just shoddy programming by the devs at this point that can be corrected- if they care to address it.

It's not like it's rocket science- battery powered devices by nature sleep to save power and won't respond within Vera's timeframe. So just have a simple one checkbox option to exclude battery powered devices from the automated routing checks.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: JOD on June 27, 2011, 04:29:04 pm
I was under the impression battery powered devices didnt need to be part of the routing table per se (except for the locks) as they can hop onto the network from any location and communicate their status back to Vera. Plus, most battery powered devices arnt capable of routing.

There's more going on here than meets the eye.

JOD.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 27, 2011, 04:39:31 pm
@JOD

AFAIK Every Z-wave device has a routing table how else can it send back info  (via other nodes) to Vera and how does Vera know where to send a z-message/scene info.

Unless youre going to add info here that we are not yet aware of? Please do as this routing issue seems complex and poorly documented.

Especially the MiOS routing that was introduced with 1.1.1245 is complex and has a lot of undocumented features.

I was under the impression battery powered devices didnt need to be part of the routing table per se (except for the locks) as they can hop onto the network from any location and communicate their status back to Vera. Plus, most battery powered devices arnt capable of routing.

There's more going on here than meets the eye.

JOD.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: JOD on June 27, 2011, 05:04:33 pm
Devices dont have routing tables, only the Primary and routing slaves do.
I'll use the HA07/ 09 remote control as an example for a battery powered device.

Let's assume everything is working fine., I then take the remote to another room or section of the house, the remote will still work (As it will for the HSM-100 or HRDS1 or any other battery operated device I've tested) as it hops onto the network via the closet node to send the commands back to Vera.
Vera does not need to know where that device is to communicate back to it. The device does not care where it is either.

If I was to leave that remote in another room, would that device trigger a nightly heal? I dont think so.

JOD.

Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 27, 2011, 05:09:17 pm
@JOD

Ok learning here:

So not all devices (especially not battery=powered) devices have variables under their advanced tab like this?
Quote
NeighborsInverse   2,27,
Health                   5
AutoRoute           0-7,4-15
AllRoutesFailed           0


Devices dont have routing tables, only the Primary and routing slaves do.
I'll use the HA07/ 09 remote control as an example for a battery powered device.

Let's assume everything is working fine., I then take the remote to another room or section of the house, the remote will still work (As it will for the HSM-100 or HRDS1 or any other battery operated device I've tested) as it hops onto the network via the closet node to send the commands back to Vera.
Vera does not need to know where that device is to communicate back to it. The device does not care where it is either.

If I was to leave that remote in another room, would that device trigger a nightly heal? I dont think so.

JOD.

--edit--

Nodes cannot automatically update routing information and the meshed network does not adapt itself, a "HEAL'  is needed for that. The fact you can take stuff into other rooms and it still works is mostly due to the fact that it can still reach its original neighbours.

If you approach this from the other side, if Vera does a heal and a battery powered device is in sleep mode, it will fall off the routing grid (until it reports back) and with autoconfguration set, the node gets removed from other devices tables as well. Therefore Vera cannot communicate to the device until it wakes up and restores a route.

If this would not be the case, how could for instance ADD report on the nodes in the network and to what other nodes they communicate???

Quote
Z-Wave is a mesh network, which means that if two Z-Wave devices want to talk to each other but they are too far apart to communicate directly, they will relay messages through other Z-Wave devices that are in-between. Every device needs to know where it is in proximity to all the other devices, so it knows which devices it can use for relaying. This network map is created when you first add devices to your Z-Wave network. If you later move devices around, the map can be wrong, the relaying might not work, and control of Z-Wave devices may become unreliable.
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Heal_Network
(and i didnt write that one!)
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: JOD on June 28, 2011, 10:21:30 am
Quote
So not all devices (especially not battery=powered) devices have variables under their advanced tab like this
Yes they have variables and may even show neighbors, but those neighbors may not necessarily be the nodes used when routing a message.

Quote
If you approach this from the other side, if Vera does a heal and a battery powered device is in sleep mode, it will fall off the routing grid (until it reports back) and with autoconfguration set, the node gets removed from other devices tables as well. Therefore Vera cannot communicate to the device until it wakes up and restores a route.
If this would not be the case, how could for instance ADD report on the nodes in the network and to what other nodes they communicate???
ADD displays the neighbor nodes, not what routes devices use.

Currently my 3-in-1's don't show any neighbors in the ADD report, neither do my remotes, but they all work. Some of my battery devices do show neighbors but my point is, neighbors are not necessarily the nodes used during routing.

All I'm saying is: IMHO there is more going on with the nightly heals than meets the eye. If a device is configured it does not need to be re-configured ever again. Unless, the new firmware contains additional variables that need to be pushed out to the device.

Quote
Quote
Z-Wave is a mesh network, which means that if two Z-Wave devices want to talk to each other but they are too far apart to communicate directly, they will relay messages through other Z-Wave devices that are in-between. Every device needs to know where it is in proximity to all the other devices, so it knows which devices it can use for relaying. This network map is created when you first add devices to your Z-Wave network. If you later move devices around, the map can be wrong, the relaying might not work, and control of Z-Wave devices may become unreliable.

http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Heal_Network
(and i didnt write that one!)
Well, up until just recently, the heal network didn't work at all and routing was nonexistant, even though we were being told it could use 4 hops and was self healing and all that bull.

JOD.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 28, 2011, 11:50:33 am
@JOD

I think we are on the same page here.

Instead of discussing if's and maybe's however i was kinda hoping someone @MCV would chip in with some info on MCV routing options and architecture to fill the documentation / knowledge gap we are facing.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: myhomeserver on June 29, 2011, 09:07:30 am
Id like DETAIL on the manual routing.  I have some devices that are on the fringe that need to be set manually and I just can't figure out the schema here to do this.  THe documentation is poor at best.

I just want to enter a number of the nodes I KNOW are able to speak directly to this device and add them in.  MCV, can you guys offer up a "manual routing for dummies" ?
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: mcvflorin on June 29, 2011, 01:01:15 pm
@myhomeserver

1. Open the Device Options tab of the device you want to set the manual route to.

2. Set the route as a dot separated list of Z-Wave nodes.

e.g. In the attached image I set the route for this dimmable light to go through Z-Wave nodes 2 and 4.
Vera -> 2 -> 4 -> Dimmable Light

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 29, 2011, 01:14:00 pm
Thank you Florin, is there someone @MCV who could explain more on "MCV proprietary z-wave routing"?!!

In the end my goal would be to turn this thread into a wiki page of course!
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: mcvflorin on June 29, 2011, 01:48:19 pm
Quote from: Henk
MCV proprietary z-wave routing

Where did you find this?
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 29, 2011, 01:58:44 pm
@mcvflorin

The z-wave device options (repair tab and others) contain checkbox settings reading "MiOS routing".

This particular setting checks routing failures on devices during the day and initiates 2am automatic healing when routing failures are found....

Wonder what else it does thats not (yet?) documented?

Ill send screenshots when i get home.

Quote from: Henk
MCV proprietary z-wave routing

Where did you find this?
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: mcvflorin on June 29, 2011, 02:10:37 pm
Yes, I forgot about those. That is information that only Aaron knows. I will ask him tomorrow about this and will let you know if I find anything.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Henk on June 29, 2011, 03:20:14 pm
Screenshots added on selections that need more in detail explanation/documentations as to their function and "inner workings"

I highlighted the settings to be explained in red.

Henk

Yes, I forgot about those. That is information that only Aaron knows. I will ask him tomorrow about this and will let you know if I find anything.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: rlmalisz on July 26, 2011, 04:47:35 pm
Yes, I forgot about those. That is information that only Aaron knows. I will ask him tomorrow about this and will let you know if I find anything.

So "tomorrow" from late June means what, 2014?  There should be NO information that "only Aaron knows"!

--Richard
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: JOD on July 26, 2011, 05:13:03 pm
More than likely this is low level Sigma stuff that MCV legally cannot disclose, and we as end users will never know the answers to.
It's like KFC's secret mix of herbs and spices.

JOD.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: rlmalisz on July 26, 2011, 05:56:07 pm
More than likely this is low level Sigma stuff that MCV legally cannot disclose, and we as end users will never know the answers to.
It's like KFC's secret mix of herbs and spices.

JOD.

And that's fine.  If they can't provide enough information about it for us to make intelligent decisions as to whether we should have the checkbox checked or unchecked, there should be no checkbox.  Having GUI interfaces that cannot be well-explained is part of what drives folks crazy WRT Vera.  If its impact cannot be explained in the GUI or in the forum, how are we to decide what to do with it?

--Richard
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: oTi@ on July 26, 2011, 11:41:59 pm
If they can't provide enough information [...] there should be no checkbox.  [...]  If its impact cannot be explained in the GUI or in the forum, how are we to decide what to do with it?
Understood; however, I do believe it is documented that the recommendation is to have the first and the last checkbox checked. As you'd typically want your devices to be configured by Vera, or they may not work. (Setting can be overridden per device.) And you'd want polling enabled to synchronize the status of devices with Vera.

For the middle three boxes, the recommendation is that if you choose to upgrade the Z-Wave firmware to 3.20, you check all 3 boxes. The second box in that group of 3 appears to enable/disable manual routing (i.e. switch between proprietary Sigma routing, or proprietary MiOS routing) which is only available in 3.20. Don't know about the third box; can only guess.

As @JOD said, we may not get too much detail due to the proprietary nature. But it's on my list to make a wiki page with explanations, if MCV can provide some detail. I'll ask.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: jaded on August 04, 2011, 11:47:10 pm
oTi@,

Isn't the "proprietary MiOS routing" the way that MCV figured out how to remotely address the problems caused by the bug in the Sigma chip's routing software?

http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=5756.0

From that post, I inferred they'd offer an MCV way to do something like a "secret buffer overflow attack" on the Sigma chip to wipe their routing tables via the Heal Network operation, correcting the 3066 bug.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Intrepid on August 16, 2011, 04:25:15 pm
Any official word on how this is supposed to be setup?


REPAIR:
[1: default checked] Re-configure all the devices when done
[2: default NOT checked] Only update MiOS routing (overrides other settings)

OPTIONS:
[3: default checked] by default MiOS should automatically configure devices
[4: default checked] Use Z-Wave version 3.2 instead of 2.78
[5: default checked] Use MiOS routing instead of Z-Wave (requires 4.5)
[6: default checked] Limit neighbors to Z-Wave discovery (requires MiOS routing)
[7: default checked] Poll nodes

I have 1, 3, 4, 6, 7 checked
I unchecked 5 after reading that it stopped the nightly heal.  The nightly heal left some of my battery sensors in an unknown state occasionally.


Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: MNB on August 16, 2011, 04:41:43 pm
@Intrepid, me thoughts this was fixed with 1338 (RC)? I assume you haven't "crossed over"?  ;D Mike
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Intrepid on August 16, 2011, 04:42:42 pm
@Intrepid, me thoughts this was fixed with 1338 (RC)? I assume you haven't "crossed over"?  ;D Mike

Nope, not yet.  Fixed?  In what way?
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: MNB on August 16, 2011, 04:48:09 pm
@Intrepid, I asked similar question in another posting, also see http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Release_Notes. Mike

Michael,

yes and yes.
Of course 1338 is still an RC so unless a critical error is found that needs to be fixed, 1338 is likely the last release for UI4.

The betatesters have had some info on UI5 like screenshots etc and in general I can say MCV is quite
responsive to us lately. However, release dates is anyones guess. We gave been told the first UI5 beta would be available "soon" but I'm unable to tell if that means days, weeks or another month.

What we DO know that the UI is taking all the priority at MCV development now. So, stay tuned.
On the other hand, please DO post any issues you find. They might also occur in the new UI since the basic firmware isn't changed, only the "look and feel".

It's very important to know where problems arise so we can inform MCV and ask them to solve the issues.

Henk

@henk, thanxs for the comeback, question you indicate that 1338 would be the last release on the UI4 fork, are we to assume that UI5 is shortly coming? If so when?Mike

Michael,

as per releasenotes, MCV seems to have adressed the issue.
Since it was released as an RC (release candidate) and it has been mentioned 1338 would be the last release on the UI4 fork, all we can do is test and report back our issues.

Since you are on a clean 3.20 database and the routing mechanism has been changed for 1338,
I would suggest to test the defaults (Mios routing enabled) and let us know if that worked for you.

For what I have been reading so far, a few heals (maybe with stresstest) should improve the routing matrix.

Henk
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: dluksenberg on February 10, 2012, 03:09:52 pm
@ mcvflorin

Are there any other parameters that need to be updated to use manual routing? I found that I can get it to work if the route includes a listed neighbor. The problem I'm having now is getting the neighbor parameter to stay populated on using an Aeon Labs door sensor. It seems to work fine with my fringe powered thermostats. Once I try manual routing on the sensor it becomes unusable even if I delete it. The only way I found to make the device usable again was to remove and re-add it to the network.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: mcvflorin on February 13, 2012, 07:06:51 am
Are there any other parameters that need to be updated to use manual routing?

AFAIK no. But if don't have any issues with it without manual routing, why not let it this way?
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Intrepid on September 03, 2012, 11:33:04 am
I know this is an old thread, but there's good info in it and I recently ran into related issues.

I have been installing some intermatic CA3000 wall switches.  My UI5 has been set with 'use mios routing' unchecked.  These switches would not recognize any neighbor nodes, and would only work within about 20 feet of vera.  Heals and update neighbor nodes would not work for these switches.  Everything else (GE wall dimmers, appliance, lamp; trane tstat; schalge locks) seemed to work properly with neighbors defined.

I changed back to enable 'use mios routing' and 'limit discovery'.  These CA3000 now work in distant locations and they have neighbors.

Are there any current downsides to using 'use mips routing' and 'limit discovery'?  I had turned it off due to problems in UI4.
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Experiment on October 10, 2012, 09:30:10 pm
Hi Everybody,
I have the same issue as Intrepid. My Intermatic Sensor don't work in the exterior of my house even if it have 2 Intermatic CA600 Switch in the same wall. By the way those Switches are far from the Veralite, but normally in works at the second retry.
My network is really unreliable. Sometimes the other sensor works, sometimes it work. I have Aeon Door sensor, like 12 Wall Switches (all of the Intermatic) and 3 Motion Sensor. I'm starting to fill frustrated because the successful percentage is lower than 80% in Scenes with triggers.
I have heal the network several times, and I think every night at 2am. The Report at 2:06am shows everything right, but my network is really unreliable because the sensors. Light works well if I set to turn on, but if I open a door, walk in front a sensor, the scene are not triggered all the time.

I think the problem is with the routing table.
I have read the whole Chat, but think things have changed, and still dont know what options you recommend to disable.
Is it recommended to do manual routing for battery sensors? How?

Thank you,
Title: Re: Z-wave healing and routing explained
Post by: Experiment on October 10, 2012, 10:18:19 pm
I have read more and arrive to this Conversation:
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=11348.15

THey mentions to not rely in the AutoHeal. Call me newbie, but I can't find the mentioned AutoRoute variable any place in my Sensors! Just the light have it.

Resuming:
1) Can I let the auto heal and setup manually some devices? No matter what the heal process do, will Vera use the Manual?
2) If the sensors Intermatic (motion) and Aeon (door), dont have AutoRoute, does the Manual Route will work?
3) What is the syntax for manual routing? Is it the same of autorouting? something like this 2-20x,7-59x,2.7-78 explained here: http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/ZWave_Debugging#Manual_routing
4) Just setting up Manual Routing on the device is all that I need? Need to change something else in Z-wave network?
5) I guess if I can find the AutoRoute I would know how to choose the best manual route.

I was testing and just if I copy some of the AutoRoute or to put 0 in ManualRoute it works, but I tried to route node 18 using: 8.14 and got this error when save: "falling at purging associations" con CA600.

Please help!
Thanks