The Vera Community forums have moved!

General => Lighting & Load Control => Topic started by: TimAlls on January 27, 2012, 06:21:05 pm

Title: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on January 27, 2012, 06:21:05 pm
I would like to use Leviton in line Dimmers to control a group of LED lights. The lights flicker unless one normal bulb is left in place. I would like to wire a dummy load up to the circuit to smooth things out. I don't want to bury a hidden light and I don't want a heat generating resistor in line as well.
I was wondering if an inductor could be used to create the dummy load and if so how to calculate the value of such a load. Would this be less heat generating than a simple resistive circuit?
Any Ideas?
I am hoping you don't tell me to buy new dimmers!
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: kgrr on January 28, 2012, 01:29:14 pm
I had the same issue in my breakfast bar area where I wanted to replace 20 watt MR16 Halogen bulbs with 3 watt MR16s on my GE45606.   The dimmer is designed for incandescent only and works just fine on halogen bulbs, which consume half the power of incandescent bulbs and have a longer life.  But they don't work well with LED lighting because they blink at a dim setting.

I think the reason for this is due to the non-linear characteristics of the LEDs.  These dimmers (your Leviton and my GE/Jasco 45606) are dimming by controlling the current.  They require current flow in order to operate.   However, when operated much below the "knee voltage" of the LED diode, literally no current flows.  The dimmer tries to bring the current up and the light comes on.  When this happens, the dimmer senses that too much current is being drawn and turns it off again.  This is why the LEDs blink at low current.

The LED cannot operate below that knee voltage.  The load you are providing with one bulb in the circuit is simply allowing current to flow and thus preventing the blinking.  However, the LEDs just don't dim below a certain brightness level and turn off.

I think these dimmers could be tricked into not allowing the dimmer to operate at lower settings than the minimum.  I just don't understand enough yet about how to adjust the characteristics of the dimmers.  e.g. setting the minimum current setting.
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: guessed on January 28, 2012, 03:17:41 pm
@TimAlls,
It's also LED Bulb sensitive.  I have Leviton Z-Wave  (VRI-06) dimmers throughout the house, and put in 4x LED Bulbs (Utilitech, from HomeDepot) 7.5W "40W equivalent" to replace 4x 65W Incandescent bulbs as an experiment of sorts.

See previous report here:
    http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,6074.msg41244.html#msg41244

Longer term notes:
a) They don't soft-start as well as the original Bulbs, but that doesn't bother me
b) In practice, I haven't noticed the flickering since setting them up
c) I never run them at the lowest setting, which is where I noticed a bunch of flicker, as that level is impractical anyhow
d) The room has 1 switched (not dimmed) Lamp that I use almost all the time, with the same type of LED Bulb
e) The room has other [incandescent] bulbs that I use for more controlled lighting (eg. front dimmable lights for the TV)
f) I'm about to replace two other sets of "ganged" lighting (one 4x, one 5x) with similar LED Lighting, and have no concerns as they're mostly field-lighting, and never dimmed to the lowest settings
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: autotoronto on January 28, 2012, 07:17:30 pm
In answer to the original question:

I suspect it will kill your dimmer. Inductors generate a back emf to resist the rate of change of current through them; a triac dimmer switches the load on part-way through the mains cycle, which means there will be significant interaction between your inductive load and the power output stage of the dimmer.

I bet if you look at the specification for your dimmer it will say "not for switching motors or other inductive loads".

Typically you can make an inductive load look "less inductive" by putting a low resistance (heavy load) in parallel with it; that would be like ballasting a fan motor with a lamp. But what you're seeking to do is to have the inductive part of the load much more significant than the resistive part.
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: mikeburr on January 28, 2012, 09:20:43 pm
Same situation as autotoronto, but with LED rope lights.  Do any of the Leviton dimmers work with low-wattage LED lighting?  If not, any suggestions for a different brand dimmer that does?
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: TimAlls on January 29, 2012, 12:04:45 pm
Thanks for all the feedback.
Autotoronto....you had interesting information and seem to understand the inductor question....here is more food for thought.
I have 10 lights in my overhead all wired in parallel.
When I use all Led replacements the lights flicker and don't dim correctly. When I leave one incandescent light in the circuit the led lights dim perfect.....all the way to nothing!
This has to be a controller issue.....not getting the operating voltage it needs to perform. I Don't agree with the"LEDs dim by current" ....the lights are in parallel so the fact that leaving one incandescent light bulb in the circuit shows that the current to each light is independent and that the controller is the culprit. In my opinion, the controller is in series with the circuit and needs a stable load to create the voltage drop across the controller and feed its circuitry. So again, there must be a simple way to stabilize the voltage that the controller needs to preform its duty of slicing up the AC wave and feeding it to the LED light bulbs. Maybe the inductor is a bad idea.....any other ideas from those of you with circuit design experience????
Thanks
Tim Alls
Edit.....I will use my scope on the controller and look at the difference with one incadecent bulb added....a picture could help figure this one out.
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: autotoronto on January 29, 2012, 06:34:19 pm
Here's what I think's happening. It's guessing, from a basic knowledge of how dimmers work (significant time working on dimmers and lighting control systems for theatres and opera houses), and how microcontrollers work, so forgive me if it's not entirely accurate.

LEDs are low voltage devices which have drive modules that rectify the ac to dc and transform the voltage down to the 2-4 volt range to power the LED chips (at a fairly high current, for a semiconductor device).

A dimmable LED unit has a smart driver that's able to power its own logic from a power supply derived from a wide range of incoming wave forms (nearly off to fully on), sense the incoming wave form, and make a guess at what power to drive the LED's at, probably with a high frequency square wave using PWM. I don't think they actually work by using the chopped ac waveform to drive the LED in any direct sense.

The two-wire dimmers power their internal electronics by having a small resistance in series with the load. If current flows through the load a small voltage develops across this resistor (in the dimmer unit) which can be tapped, rectified, pumped up etc to 3 or so volts with a current of a few 10s of milliamps to drive the microprocessor in the zwave unit.

The dimmer powers up the load (the LED's). The LED drivers power up. They power on the LED chips. The z-wave dimmer now has enough current flowing that it can siphon off enough to start up the z-wave and control circuits. The control circuits now try to dim the attached load to the correct level restricting the mean current flow. Unfortunately this has the effect of starving the microcontroller of the power to operate, so it shuts down. The load defaults to full on again, so there's enough current for the microcontroller to power up, and the cycle starts again. result: flickering.

If you include the incandescent in the circuit then the controller can leak enough current through the load that it can tap some power to remain operational even when the load appears to be off.

The best way to "stabilize the voltage" is to provide the dimmer with a neutral: then the power to the microcontroller doesn't need to depend on leaking current through the load while the load is "off". This is why dimmers rated for CFL's and LED's always require that neutral. The second way is to provide a dummy load in parallel with the true load, either a resistor or an incandescent of some minimum wattage.

If there was another way to do it - you can be quite sure that you'd be seeing a lot of "CFL/LED-capable dimmers" on the market that only require the two wires.
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: TimAlls on January 29, 2012, 11:13:07 pm
I will put the scope on the dimmers Monday. And check it with and without the added incandescent bulb......the following came from another forum:

Has anyone tried a resistor in the circuit? If so, what value and what would the wattage rating be? Would there be any concerns with heat? How high of a resistance could a guy get away with and still have it eliminate the flicker? Thanks again for all your help.

Geo
Senior Member

Canada
322 Posts

 Posted - 07/31/2011 :  10:41:05 AM    
I did try it, successfully, but there may not be a universal value for the simple reason that the devices, that is CFLs and LEDs don't seem to be standardized as yet, so the values may be all over the place.
More often than not a 5W light bulb will do the trick. That represents a 2.9kOhm resistor, which will dissipate 5W. To be safe, you need to use at least a 10W resistor and now you have to worry about the safety both electrical and fire. Using a light bulb hidden somewhere solves these problems at a fraction of the cost. The added power consumption, whether you use a bulb or a resistor, is negligible, if you desire dimming.
The main problem you're trying to fix is caused by CFLs or LED lamps being reactive loads. Consequently, the current drops below the holding current of the triac too soon and the triac turns off. That causes the flicker. The holding current depends on the triac used by the dimmer manufacturer. In several cases I managed to get everything running with a 100kOhm resistor, that is 1.2mA additional current, 144mW heat dissipation. That allowed using a small 1/2W resistor placed in the junction box.
That said, DON'T DO IT if you don't know your ways around electricity! Judging from your questions, you don't. A small bulb should be your only alternative.
GJN
End quote....
Very interesting!
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: autotoronto on January 30, 2012, 06:27:16 am
Quote
To be safe, you need to use at least a 10W resistor and now you have to worry about the safety both electrical and fire. Using a light bulb hidden somewhere solves these problems at a fraction of the cost.
Just one thing to add. From a safety perspective, there's no real difference in the fire risk of a 5W light bulb and a resistor dissipating 5 watts. Both give off the same 5 watts of heat. You may think the resistor is worse because its surface reaches a higher temperature than the glass envelope of the lamp but that's only because the resistor is smaller. Give it the same amount of room around it as you would for a lightbulb and the temperature rise will be the same.
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: big517 on January 30, 2012, 07:19:58 am
I'm am very interested to see if anyone executes on this.. I have been wondering about this exact same thing I have over 30 dimmers and only 2 control a non-led load... This is a battle I'm constantly fighting.. I was able to find a (temporary) solution using luup code because I found the flicker would happen at certain ranges and this would eliminate the light to be set to that level through Vera.. if you search for my posts you'll find it.
I have a question to add to this topic.
When I turn on a light and it's ramping up per the natural ramp rate of the dimmer, I noticed that the other lights on different switches (but same circuit to fuse box) would ramp down or up as if they are receiving some signal to do so... Could it be because they use the same common? They do not use 3 way travelers wires. Would wiring this resistor solve that as well?

I'm using all GE single and 3 way Dimmers and the ecosmart 11 watt LED retrofits from home depot (cree LR6 I believe)


Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: TimAlls on January 30, 2012, 02:13:26 pm
Hi All,
I just finished testing the leviton 1000 watt dimmers with Philips 7 watt 280 lumen LED lights and here is the results:
1. by adding one 10 watt 3.3K resistor to the circuit (tied between output of dimmer and neutral wire) the flickering disappears but dimming rate is still unstable.
2. by adding two 10 watt 3.3K resistors to the circuit (in parallel) the flickeing is gone and the dim rate is stabilized
3. with the two resistors I changed the number of LED lights from 10 down to no lights at all and the circuit is stable....dims correctly with any number of lights
4. with the two resistors and no LED lights and the dimmer functions fine.....it means that the ZWAVE will alway function independant of a no load situation! Never a dead node to disrupt the ZWAVE mapping which really slows down the network.

I will look at it on the scope next but I would say SUCESS! I am looking at a safe way to implement the resistors next....

More to come

Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Inductive Dummy Load for LED lights
Post by: pgrover516 on January 30, 2012, 03:06:36 pm
Hi All,
I just finished testing the leviton 1000 watt dimmers with Philips 7 watt 280 lumen LED lights and here is the results:
1. by adding one 10 watt 3.3K resistor to the circuit (tied between output of dimmer and neutral wire) the flickering disappears but dimming rate is still unstable.
2. by adding two 10 watt 3.3K resistors to the circuit (in parallel) the flickeing is gone and the dim rate is stabilized
3. with the two resistors I changed the number of LED lights from 10 down to no lights at all and the circuit is stable....dims correctly with any number of lights
4. with the two resistors and no LED lights and the dimmer functions fine.....it means that the ZWAVE will alway function independant of a no load situation! Never a dead node to disrupt the ZWAVE mapping which really slows down the network.

I will look at it on the scope next but I would say SUCESS! I am looking at a safe way to implement the resistors next....

More to come

Regards
Tim Alls
Awesome, will look forward to to hearing about your implementation
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on January 30, 2012, 05:21:24 pm
So assuming you're in North America, you've added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current and dissipating about 9 watts.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on January 30, 2012, 06:09:39 pm
So assuming you're in North America, you've added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current and dissipating about 9 watts.
Yes that's correct. However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position. The easiest and safest way to install these is to place them in the lighting cans in parallel with the light socket. The cans have a thermal shutdown feature which would insure safe behavior and the metal can would easily withstand the heat from a 10 watt load. This is a job for an experienced electrician....if you are not please don't do it.....using the wrong components or leaving a bad connection could start a fire so beware!
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on January 30, 2012, 09:52:36 pm
Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on January 31, 2012, 07:50:12 pm
Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.

Absolutely.....saftey always comes first. The final install will be using aluminum cased 1.5K thermal resistors (picture below).
They can be mounted in the lighting can or in our case we are remote mounting them to an aluminum plate that forms a great heat sink. These should not be used inside a wall switch or in a plastic enclosure....this is where common sense needs to be used.

I will post a finished photo tomorrow ..... end results are stable dimming rates and No Flicker for 10 different styles and brands of LED Lighting! The lights still cannot go below a 10% dim.....thats where they stop but the benefits are obvious. We have switched to an EcoSmart 9 watt (40 watt equivalent) LED bulb and they are working great for general overhead lighting in our yachts. These put out 3,000 K light temp and I wish I could get them closer to 2500....just a little more yellow would make them perfect.

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on January 31, 2012, 08:02:41 pm
Awesome! Now where do I buy it?   :P
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: guessed on January 31, 2012, 08:32:34 pm
@TimAlls,
A number of Home Depot's EcoSmart line are made by Lighting Sciences Group.  The model numbers of the form *W27* are the 2700K lights, which aren't always available via Home Depot, but are often available on other Websites for about the same price as what HD charges.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on January 31, 2012, 08:52:50 pm
Awesome! Now where do I buy it?   :P
Digikey.com.....in stock 6 bucks a pop but well worth it .....
The EcoSmarts bulbs are 10 dollars each at the Home Depot....the best buy I have seen yet.

@Guessed,
Thanks I will go online and check it out. At full intensity they look exactly like a normal bulb, but as they dim the color gets whiter.

Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on February 01, 2012, 05:23:36 am
Where did you get these resistors? I like the built on heat sink. I think I'm giving it a test run this weekend or as soon as my electrician can help out... This should bring some sanity back to my lighting situation.

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 01, 2012, 07:26:28 am
Remember they do need to be mounted to an external heatsink, hence the flat base and the lugs; the case itself isn't sufficient for much power dissipation.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 01, 2012, 11:11:31 am
Where did you get these resistors? I like the built on heat sink. I think I'm giving it a test run this weekend or as soon as my electrician can help out... This should bring some sanity back to my lighting situation.
The resistors can be purchased from Digikey.com $3.30 each http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/KAL25FB1K50/KAL25FB1K50-ND/1646191 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/KAL25FB1K50/KAL25FB1K50-ND/1646191)
I will be testing heat discharge on a standard 4 inch can today.

Keep in mind that my testing was ONLY on a Leviton Brand 1000w dimmer.....others could be different. The resistor allows the dimmer to fully function even with no other loads connected.

Heat is the big issue and caution must be taken to insure a safe install.

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 01, 2012, 02:43:30 pm
Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.

I will post a finished photo tomorrow ..... end results are stable dimming rates and No Flicker for 10 different styles and brands of LED Lighting!

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Great work! Would love to see pics of your installation, Thanks
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 01, 2012, 03:23:47 pm
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 01, 2012, 05:23:22 pm
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.
Here is a photo of a standard can light.....the small rectangle in the bottom with two wires attached is a thermal overload circuit. If the light fixture gets too hot the power shuts off automatically. We are mounting the resistor nearby so that excessive heat from a malfunction will shut the circuit down and not allow anything to catch fire. I wll run the circuit 24 hours then check it with a thermal temperature gauge.
more to come.....waiting for the resistors to arrive!
Regards
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on February 02, 2012, 06:25:12 am
Have you checked to see if the resistor gives the same results if installed as the first device on the circuit (first light can in a string of 6 cans for instance) or on the last light can in that example?

I'm not an electrician so this may not matter but I'm noticing these led bulbs act odd for some reason.. Here is my real example... I have a wall of sconces 8 bulbs total,(philips dimmable flare tip with regular base) and the 2 bulb always shows a greener color that the rest.. I've swapped out with 2 bulbs to confirm..
Just a thought.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 02, 2012, 11:14:11 am
Have you checked to see if the resistor gives the same results if installed as the first device on the circuit (first light can in a string of 6 cans for instance) or on the last light can in that example?
I'm not an electrician so this may not matter but I'm noticing these led bulbs act odd for some reason.. Here is my real example... I have a wall of sconces 8 bulbs total,(philips dimmable flare tip with regular base) and the 2 bulb always shows a greener color that the rest.. I've swapped out with 2 bulbs to confirm..
Just a thought.
The lighting circuits are in parallel with each other so it does not matter where you tie in the dummy load .....The test I did with the Leviton 1000W dimmer showed that all LED lights added into the room functioned properly after adding the dummy load into the circuit.
To confirm your odd behavior comment.....I too noticed that before adding the dummy load lights that were further away had different flickering properties. This, I am speculating, is due to the reactive loading the LED lights create and the length of the wire may change the capacitive reactance to the circuit.....bottom line is the dummy load eliminates all strange behavior.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on February 02, 2012, 12:47:26 pm
I have a question that derives itself from the discussions on this thread.  Would the use of a added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current provide enough energy to activate a Leviton VRS05-1L (Scene Capable, non-dimming, incandescent switch with no neutral) in a 3-Way installation?   Leviton switches are very useful in single-pole installations.  However, in a 3-way installation without a neutral, I need to have, at the least, a 40 watt bulb in parallel with every LED light in the circuit or the Leviton switch will not function properly.  I realize that with the shunt in the circuit, you will create a 10 watt vampire load at every fixture, but if it allows you to reduce the lamp wattage of every light fixture by at least 50%, it might be an interesting trade-off or a least lead to an interesting discussion.  I also wonder what the difference is between using a 1650 ohm shunt for each fixture in a specific 3-way circuit compared to using a 40 watt incandescent bulb as a "shunt"?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 02, 2012, 02:24:31 pm
As a safety measure, why not mount a thermal fuse wired in series adjacent to the resistor on the can? Digikey have a range, at $.40 ea or thereabouts.
Here is a photo of a standard can light.....the small rectangle in the bottom with two wires attached is a thermal overload circuit. If the light fixture gets too hot the power shuts off automatically. We are mounting the resistor nearby so that excessive heat from a malfunction will shut the circuit down and not allow anything to catch fire. I wll run the circuit 24 hours then check it with a thermal temperature gauge.
more to come.....waiting for the resistors to arrive!
Regards
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
Great stuff Tim keep it coming, going to convert the house to LED when you're done with testing
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 02, 2012, 02:51:07 pm
I have a question that derives itself from the discussions on this thread.  Would the use of a added a 1650 ohm shunt, passing a 70mA current provide enough energy to activate a Leviton VRS05-1L (Scene Capable, non-dimming, incandescent switch with no neutral) in a 3-Way installation?   Leviton switches are very useful in single-pole installations.  However, in a 3-way installation without a neutral, I need to have, at the least, a 40 watt bulb in parallel with every LED light in the circuit or the Leviton switch will not function properly.  I realize that with the shunt in the circuit, you will create a 10 watt vampire load at every fixture, but if it allows you to reduce the lamp wattage of every light fixture by at least 50%, it might be an interesting trade-off or a least lead to an interesting discussion.  I also wonder what the difference is between using a 1650 ohm shunt for each fixture in a specific 3-way circuit compared to using a 40 watt incandescent bulb as a "shunt"?
Even though my testing was done with a Leviton 1000Watt dimmer I suspect that other Leviton products will give similar results.....that is just a guess. To prove it use a 10 watt bulb in one of your lights along with the LED and see if it still functions. If it does then you will know what to expect with a dummy load since they are both resistive loads they will act the same. If you need more than a 10 watt load the heat buildup will be an issue to deal with.....the 1.5 K resistors don't give off much heat and are pretty easy to manage.
It will really be nice for all the Forum Users to get a database together of what the value of the dummy loads are required so that LED lighting can be used! LEDs are here to stay so lets all work together to solve the issues....food for thought!
@pgrover516.....Good to hear!
Regard
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 03, 2012, 10:59:48 am
Quote
I also wonder what the difference is between using a 1650 ohm shunt for each fixture in a specific 3-way circuit compared to using a 40 watt incandescent bulb as a "shunt"?
It occurs to me that incandescent bulbs are much more non-linear than resistors. The filament has a higher reistance when hot than cold. This might work to the advantage: you might be able to use a lower wattage of bulb to ballast a dimmer than a straight resistor. The balast current is needed most when the load is off, at which point a bulb in shunt would remain cold, and low resistance. When the load is running at high level the bulb filament heats and its resistance rises.

So it might be that if you need a 10W ballast load, a 5W bulb might do the same trick.

On the other hand low wattage bulbs have narrow and fragile filaments.

Anyone want to experiment further?
Title: Quck and Dirt Test -- Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on February 04, 2012, 12:58:35 pm
Yesterday, I tested two dummy loads on a Leviton 600 W dimmer, no neutral,  3-way circuit to see if I could eliminate flicker: one load worked the other did not.  My test environment was a Leviton VRI06 600W dimmer in a 3-way configuration.  The only lamp in the circuit is a ZetaLux Pro 2 LED lamp.  I tested using two lamps as shunts: a 7.5 watt night-light bulb and an 11 watt signage bulb.   The 7.5 watt bulb gave marginal performance.  The 11 watt lamp appears to give rock solid performance.   It should be noted that I am not trying to see how well the circuit functions as a dimmer.  What is more useful to me is to take my energy cost for the circuit from 60 w to 18 w.

I now have another issue to deal with.  The circuit in question is the lamp is the lamp circuit for a ceiling fan.   In normal operation the LED lamp would be enclosed in a glass globe.  I have seen numerous warnings telling me to never use an LED lamp in an enclosed fixture because it will be very detrimental to the life of the LED lamp.  I might be able to take a chance with a 7 watt LED lamp inside the glass globe of a ceiling fan fixture.  However, the 11 watt "shunt" lamp that I would need to make the circuit function greatly increases the stakes.  Even though shunt lamp is only 11 watts, it is still too hot to handle with bare hands during normal operation.  I am afraid that if I place the two bulbs in the same globe, I will soon have a "fried" LED lamp after a relatively short period of time.

So I am now looking at two options: try to find a vented ceiling fan vented glass glove - no luck to far or to use a shunt resistor similar to one described in this thread and mount it somewhere on the ceiling lamp fixture somewhere outside of the glass globe.  I anyone has any suggestions regarding what I can do in this situation, I would appreciate hearing from you.

At any rate, I now know that if you have a  no neutral, two traveler wire, non-dimming,  3-way circuit and you want to replace an incandescent lamp with an ZetaLux 2 Pro LED lamp in an open, well-ventilated fixture, using an 11 watt signage bulb as a shunt might work.   However, just remember that this is not a recommendation, it is merely an observation.  You assume all risks for doing this in your own environment.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 06, 2012, 12:45:57 pm
@silvereagle2208
Some of the LED bulbs generate quite a bit a heat so enclosing them would be bad......perhaps you could create a couple of air vents above the glass dome to give it a place for the heat to go....that is going to be a tough one!
In regards to the dummy load....I am going with 1K resistors because the dimming was smoother with a 10 Watt load. The resistor could be mounted on the metal housing to the fan....if mounted to a metal structure the heat spreads out nicely and is disipated into the air......it's not much heat but enough to be cautious with. Keep us posted as to the outcome. I have fans with three lights on the bottom and the LED's would work fine with that arrangement....I am unsure if you could change to that configuration. Good Luck.

@autotoronto
I would be interested in any testing you do with your dimmers.....the goal here is to use the smallest amount of energy and create a functioning LED lighting circuit. For me, 10 watts of wasted power to correct for the reactive loading which screws up the dimmer circuits. Of course we saved when we switched to LED's but it is a shame to loose the 10 watts to create a functioning dimmer!
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 07, 2012, 10:55:28 am
My resistors came in yesterday......here is how I am curing the LED flickering issue on ten different dimmers. Remote mounted dummy loads, 1K or about 10 watts added to the output of Leviton 1000W Dimmers.
More to come.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 07, 2012, 01:47:53 pm
Nice install. Can I suggest a dab of heatsink paste under each resistor, if you didn't already use it?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 07, 2012, 01:56:33 pm
Nice install. Can I suggest a dab of heatsink paste under each resistor, if you didn't already use it?
You are right on target! Yes we will as well as adding fins to the back side of the panel.  ..........EDIT.....there is no heat build up so no fins are needed.
I will be checking the temp with our laser.....going to run them all 24 hours at full intensity then check the heat build up.
More to Come....
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 07, 2012, 07:39:02 pm
Here is the final install....we have been running full power for hours and the heat build up is just warm to touch....that is with 10 circuits running all at once.
I will check it's temperature tomorrow but It appears that the LED dummy loads are going to work fine!
We took the output of each dimmer and fed them into the resistors shown....the common white ties them all to neutral.
The light CANs are next but I see no problems.
Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 08, 2012, 11:19:18 am
Hi All,
Final heat testing this morning after running all 10 circuits all night.....backing plate is at 89 degrees......same as yesterday, just warm to touch.
Bugs:
LED's don't ramp up like the normal bulbs
Dimming is not perfectly smooth to the eye but the dummy load makes dimming linear
LED's can't go below 10%

On the upside is lower energy, and no changing of the lightbulbs!

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 08, 2012, 02:16:47 pm
great stuff, Thanks again Tim
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: tinkerdoctor on February 12, 2012, 06:22:58 pm
Inductor wouldn't work, but what about capacitor, it should? 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 13, 2012, 04:28:08 pm
Inductor wouldn't work, but what about capacitor, it should?
A Capacitor will react with circuit similar to an inductor since it runs on AC.....The resistors are non reactive and seem to work fine!
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: tinkerdoctor on February 13, 2012, 06:27:58 pm
Inductor tend to keep the current flowing when the circuit is turn off and cause large voltage spike when the circuit is turn offr which damage the switch (arcing on dry switch and short on semiconductors).  Capacitor keep the voltage the same which actually protects the switch.  I did some calculations and came out with 35micro F as equivalent to 5W bulb.  To be safe you need 600V peak.  At Digikey they cost about $15. It will take about 15 years to recover the cost of electricity saved but it also avoid the issue of local heating.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 13, 2012, 07:24:49 pm
Inductor tend to keep the current flowing when the circuit is turn off and cause large voltage spike when the circuit is turn offr which damage the switch (arcing on dry switch and short on semiconductors).  Capacitor keep the voltage the same which actually protects the switch.  I did some calculations and came out with 35micro F as equivalent to 5W bulb.  To be safe you need 600V peak.  At Digikey they cost about $15. It will take about 15 years to recover the cost of electricity saved but it also avoid the issue of local heating.
between the electronics and the led bulbs i may not live long enough to see the savings, lol   :P
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 13, 2012, 07:50:53 pm
Quote
between the electronics and the led bulbs i may not live long enough to see the savings, lol   :P
On our yachts we are switching from 40 watt halogen bulbs (in 4 inch cans) to an LED replacement from the Home Depot.....$10.00 per LED bulb. The halogens ran $5.00 per bulb and we have been spending way too much time changing bulbs! A typical room has 10 bulbs so the return is very quick and even quicker if your labor to go get bulbs and change them is taken in to consideration! ;D
It doesn't take a lifetime to pay for the LED's .... but it is a bit of trouble to add the dummy loads.
No one is calculating the reduction in HVAC as well....that is the biggest saver.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

P.S. the temperature of a 1K resistor is 170 degrees.....the surrounding heatsink in my photo never gets above 85 degrees even after running days at full power.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 13, 2012, 11:27:08 pm
Thanks again for your solid R&D, despite my jest I'm excited to begin conversion to led at the house this weekend. Cheers!
Paul
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 14, 2012, 08:50:57 am
Thanks again for your solid R&D, despite my jest I'm excited to begin conversion to led at the house this weekend. Cheers!
Paul
Thanks for the feedback. You have to have a sense of humor with all that goes on in the home tecky department.  ;D
For example, I am working on code as we speak that will drive my neighbors dog crazy! He never stops barking at night.....arggggggg. So I will be generating high pitch sounds on random intervals to annoy him during the day.....but only when I am at work.....maybe then the neighbors will actually do something about it! ha
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: markiper on February 14, 2012, 09:55:11 am
Very interesting post.  I am also in the process of changing my halogen lights to LED lamps, but interestingly enough I do not see any of the flickering effects you are all describing.  I am using the following:

- Leviton VRI06-1LZ (http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=VRI06-1LZ&section=44140&minisite=10251)
- GU10 LED lights @ 9W each (http://www.amazon.com/Gu10-White-Rotundity-Light-85v-265v/dp/B006N5SCOM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1329230843&sr=8-3)

The LED lights pull a less than 9W when they are ON (full brightness) and I am able to drive 3 - 4 LED lamps on a Leviton dimmer without any flickering.  The only thing I change was the ramp up values, instead of 5 seconds, I made it instant so the LEDs come on instantly after you touch the switch.  Dimming works properly anywhere above 10% - 15%, any lower than that the LED's will turn off.

Just in case, I have no association with any of the companies above.
 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 14, 2012, 10:30:41 am
The LED lights pull a less than 9W when they are ON (full brightness) and I am able to drive 3 - 4 LED lamps on a Leviton dimmer without any flickering.  The only thing I change was the ramp up values, instead of 5 seconds, I made it instant so the LEDs come on instantly after you touch the switch.  Dimming works properly anywhere above 10% - 15%, any lower than that the LED's will turn off.
Just in case, I have no association with any of the companies above.
 
Thanks for the information! The flickering is different with different LED's.....I have used several different ones and found that each behaves differently. I know it is just a matter of time before the dimmers and LED manufacturer's figure out how to get the job done without us having to install dummy loads! I only found  one of my lights that didn't flicker and oddly enough it has the GU10 base as well. That is good price on the bulb you posted.....how is the color and the spread (pattern on wall if used for accent)?
Keep the information coming in......it will help us all choose the best LED's for the job!
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: rlmalisz on February 14, 2012, 10:36:19 am
Very interesting post.  I am also in the process of changing my halogen lights to LED lamps, but interestingly enough I do not see any of the flickering effects you are all describing.  I am using the following:

- Leviton VRI06-1LZ (http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=VRI06-1LZ&section=44140&minisite=10251)
- GU10 LED lights @ 9W each (http://www.amazon.com/Gu10-White-Rotundity-Light-85v-265v/dp/B006N5SCOM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1329230843&sr=8-3)

The LED lights pull a less than 9W when they are ON (full brightness) and I am able to drive 3 - 4 LED lamps on a Leviton dimmer without any flickering.  The only thing I change was the ramp up values, instead of 5 seconds, I made it instant so the LEDs come on instantly after you touch the switch.  Dimming works properly anywhere above 10% - 15%, any lower than that the LED's will turn off.

Just in case, I have no association with any of the companies above.
 

What I have found with my Leviton dimmers is that any aggregate load above 22W with LEDs doesn't have any issues.  I have a couple circuits with two CREE CR6s on them (21W) --both waffle a lot before stabilizing.  Another with three (31.5W) is rock solid.  My office overhead has a pair of Philips AmbientLED 60W-eq (12W each)...perfectly stable. YMMV.

--Richard
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pgrover516 on February 14, 2012, 04:43:54 pm
You have to have a sense of humor with all that goes on in the home tecky department.  ;D
For example, I am working on code as we speak that will drive my neighbors dog crazy! He never stops barking at night.....arggggggg. So I will be generating high pitch sounds on random intervals to annoy him during the day.....but only when I am at work.....maybe then the neighbors will actually do something about it! ha
Regards
Tim Alls
hahaha, man I never wanna be your enemy    ;D
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: brsipaq on February 15, 2012, 10:20:37 am
You wouldn't be his enemy if:
1. You didn't wake him and his family up, which is something everyone needs.
2. He followed the commonly accepted approach for neighbors to resolve conflict: He approached his neighbor to talk about the issue.  Ignoring this request for something people need, have the right to, and are entitled to is what creates the issue.

It's unfortunate that someone has to even ask for permission from his/her neighbor to do something basic such as sleeping on his own property.  Yes, the noise level of a single barking dog can exceed 100 decibels.  Our ears interpret that as being 16 time louder than normal conversation and 128 times louder than a whisper.

Its sad that some dog owners can't have even cordial relationships with other people.

Brian
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: markiper on February 15, 2012, 11:48:43 am
@TimAlls
Quote
how is the color and the spread (pattern on wall if used for accent)?

Color is whiter than halogen light, so it took a little for me to adjust to the change, but the light is much better.  I would say the led bulbs provide about 35 - 45 degree light pattern, so narrower than halogen lights.  My personal opinion, great halogen replacement for the price (biggest advantage, minimum heat being generated - almost zero I must say)
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 15, 2012, 12:53:29 pm
@TimAlls
Quote
how is the color and the spread (pattern on wall if used for accent)?

Color is whiter than halogen light, so it took a little for me to adjust to the change, but the light is much better.  I would say the led bulbs provide about 35 - 45 degree light pattern, so narrower than halogen lights.  My personal opinion, great halogen replacement for the price (biggest advantage, minimum heat being generated - almost zero I must say)
Ok....I'm sold! I will order some in. We use almost 50 of them for accent lights on our 92 foot expedition yachts!
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: markiper on February 15, 2012, 06:17:00 pm
Quote
Ok....I'm sold! I will order some in. We use almost 50 of them for accent lights on our 92 foot expedition yachts!

Please let us know how it works for your application, glad I was able to help ;D
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: JimMac on February 15, 2012, 09:29:36 pm
A little off topic here but I thought I would share some LED purchasing info.
I have replaced about 85% of my regular bulbs with a variety of LED lights including 10w, 20w and 50w outdoor floodlights, GU10 (9w and 6w dimmable), MR16 and a variety of ceiling down lights up to 18W each.  I was purchasing them like most people from local suppliers but soon found that my budget was quickly exhausted.  I started to look into purchasing from suppliers directly from China and found that many of them have ebay stores.  Some use CREE LEDS while others don't but so far my cost has been cut down by 70%.  I can even specify the beam angle of the lens from 30 to 120 degrees depending on how high the light is going to be mounted.  I was skeptical at first but after 13 months none of my LED lights has failed so far.  The best part is so far I have not paid any taxes or duty since the declared value is too low and my packages just pass through customs.  As an example I purchased 9w GU10 dimmables for $4.95 US each including shipping.  If you don't mind waiting about 30 days for delivery IMHO this is a great option.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: jon798 on February 17, 2012, 10:33:36 am
Hello,

I'm suffering similar flicker problems with Toshiba LED lamps and plan on trying to put 25W resistors in parallel with my lighting load (8x 6.5W LED lamps). As my brain is refusing to help me today, would someone who knows what they're talking about mind confirming that a 1.5kOhm, 25W resistor is the right thing to go for in the UK at 230V?

Thanks,

Jon.




Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 17, 2012, 11:04:32 am
Hello,
I'm suffering similar flicker problems with Toshiba LED lamps and plan on trying to put 25W resistors in parallel with my lighting load (8x 6.5W LED lamps). As my brain is refusing to help me today, would someone who knows what they're talking about mind confirming that a 1.5kOhm, 25W resistor is the right thing to go for in the UK at 230V?
Thanks,
Jon.
My resistors are running on 110 volts.....to duplicate the effect on 220 just double the resistor....@3.0K
We are getting interesting feedback on the LEDs.....some brands are better than others in regards to flickering, so read all the options in this thread.....might save you some time!
Also.....I never mentioned this but some LED lights such as under counter lights cannot be dimmed! Make sure they say "dimmable".
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: tinkerdoctor on February 18, 2012, 11:34:31 am
Quadrapul the resistor W = V^2/R
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 18, 2012, 11:39:14 am
Quadrapul the resistor W = V^2/R
Watts = Volts*Amps
I don't follow you
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RichardTSchaefer on February 18, 2012, 05:14:47 pm
If you want to dissipate the same power in the resistor when you change the voltage then quadruple the resistor value.

Amps = Volt / Resistance
Hence Watts = V^2 / R
 
If you want to maintain the same current then just double the resistor. But you will need a higher wattage rated resistor (by a factor of 2).

I am not sure but I think the intention is to dissipate the same power.

The wattage of your resistors should be greater than the generated wattage computed above.

The rating of the resistor if greater should be OK as long as you dissipate the heat generated by the resistor. Otherwise the resistor will resist no more!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 18, 2012, 05:29:27 pm
I think at a first guess you should aim to pass the same current. On 230V you should expect to dissipate twice the power, therefore.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: tinkerdoctor on February 19, 2012, 10:10:58 am
On second thought that right
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: righteousdude80 on February 23, 2012, 01:19:41 am
Wow- this thread is great! Im glad that I stumbled on it. For months now,  I have had the issue that my LED lights dont turn off fully.  Does anybody have a recommendation as to whether this will fix that problem and are there any pics of anybody installing these resistors in a recessed can?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 23, 2012, 09:10:35 am
Wow- this thread is great! Im glad that I stumbled on it. For months now,  I have had the issue that my LED lights dont turn off fully.  Does anybody have a recommendation as to whether this will fix that problem and are there any pics of anybody installing these resistors in a recessed can?
It should fix the problem.....use a regular light in the circuit with the LED lights to confirm it. Use a 7 to 10 watt bulb and that will help calculate the size of your resistor.....I will take a photo of the resistor  in the can today if I can.
As mentioned earlier no one has tested this on a 220 volt circuit.....the wattage rating of the resistor should be doubled and the resistance doubled from mine but I am speculating.....someone good with electronics try it and give us the Euro Solution!
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on February 23, 2012, 03:37:16 pm
This is the low-tech solution I implemented last week.  Everywhere I'm using LED lights, I have a place to surreptitiously plug in one of these into the circuit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300657150822

$4 night light from eBay
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: righteousdude80 on February 23, 2012, 11:17:57 pm
Wow- this thread is great! Im glad that I stumbled on it. For months now,  I have had the issue that my LED lights dont turn off fully.  Does anybody have a recommendation as to whether this will fix that problem and are there any pics of anybody installing these resistors in a recessed can?
It should fix the problem.....use a regular light in the circuit with the LED lights to confirm it. Use a 7 to 10 watt bulb and that will help calculate the size of your resistor.....I will take a photo of the resistor  in the can today if I can.
As mentioned earlier no one has tested this on a 220 volt circuit.....the wattage rating of the resistor should be doubled and the resistance doubled from mine but I am speculating.....someone good with electronics try it and give us the Euro Solution!
Regards
Tim Alls

Yep - with a 1 regular bulb in line, the other 7 watt led works like a charm. Groovy! Now i just need to figure out how to best set it up.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: righteousdude80 on February 23, 2012, 11:47:09 pm
Wow- this thread is great! Im glad that I stumbled on it. For months now,  I have had the issue that my LED lights dont turn off fully.  Does anybody have a recommendation as to whether this will fix that problem and are there any pics of anybody installing these resistors in a recessed can?
It should fix the problem.....use a regular light in the circuit with the LED lights to confirm it. Use a 7 to 10 watt bulb and that will help calculate the size of your resistor.....I will take a photo of the resistor  in the can today if I can.
As mentioned earlier no one has tested this on a 220 volt circuit.....the wattage rating of the resistor should be doubled and the resistance doubled from mine but I am speculating.....someone good with electronics try it and give us the Euro Solution!
Regards
Tim Alls

BTW, after re-reading this entire thread for the bazzilionth time, I'm still amazed at how much you have contributed.. and how much I still dont understand. Tim, I think you deserve "Super" as an addition to your forum status.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: righteousdude80 on February 23, 2012, 11:51:29 pm
This is the low-tech solution I implemented last week.  Everywhere I'm using LED lights, I have a place to surreptitiously plug in one of these into the circuit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300657150822

$4 night light from eBay

Interesting solution. How do you "stealthily" install these into the circuit? And yes.. I did have to look up the definition of surreptitiously.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: eurofiles on February 25, 2012, 01:50:48 am
My resistors came in yesterday......here is how I am curing the LED flickering issue on ten different dimmers. Remote mounted dummy loads, 1K or about 10 watts added to the output of Leviton 1000W Dimmers.
More to come.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

You stated that you installed 10W resistors, but the resistors pictured and the link you had posted earlier to purchase them are 25W resistors. 10W works for my system so what 10W resistors would be suitable for me? link please, thank you!.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on February 25, 2012, 07:19:01 am
Interesting solution. How do you "stealthily" install these into the circuit? And yes.. I did have to look up the definition of surreptitiously.
Well, it's not that interesting...   :D Everywhere I'm using LEDs, it's for accent lighting, plugged into a hidden receptacle.  If/when I upgrade to ceiling fixtures, I'll be looking back to this thread for info.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 25, 2012, 11:42:56 am
My resistors came in yesterday......here is how I am curing the LED flickering issue on ten different dimmers. Remote mounted dummy loads, 1K or about 10 watts added to the output of Leviton 1000W Dimmers.
More to come.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

You stated that you installed 10W resistors, but the resistors pictured and the link you had posted earlier to purchase them are 25W resistors. 10W works for my system so what 10W resistors would be suitable for me? link please, thank you!.
The resistors create a 10 watt load.....I am using 25 watt rated resistors just to make sure they can easily dissipate the heat!
Here is the math for thoses that are unsure.....
First leave one small light bulb in the circuit with the LEDs....a 7 or 10 watt perhaps. See if your problem goes away. If it goes away with a 7 watt light bulb then here is the formula....
First calculate the amperage draw on a 7 watt light bulb....(watts = amps * volts) (amps = watts / volts) so 7 = amps * 120 if your voltage is 120 ......so the amperage draw needed is .0583
Based on the amperage draw calculate the resistance of the circuit using ohms law ( resistance = voltage / amperage ) or resistance is about 1406 or 1.406 K
Remember to use your voltage when doing this 120 or 240
Remember to use a resistor that is rated for more than your needs......in this case a 25 watt resistor will be larger and handle the heat better.
I hope that helps!
@RighteousDude80 thanks for the pep talk!
There are so many manufacturers.....the more feedback the better off for all of us.

Regards
Tim

P.S. don't burn your house down! Use a qualified electrician if you aren't an electronic hacker...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: autotoronto on February 25, 2012, 06:58:39 pm
It's worth repeating that the ratings for high power resistors are based on the resistor being correctly mounted on a heatsink of a specified thermal resistance (in degrees/watt), so check the manufacturer's datasheet for details.
Title: Eliminated flickering with 2-wire, no-neutral switches - No dummy load required
Post by: silvereagle2208 on March 21, 2012, 04:28:59 pm
About a month ago, as a result of discussions on this thread, I installed a 12-watt sign lamp as a dummy load in parallel with a EarthLED Zetalux Pro LED light to eliminate flickering in two conventional 3-way circuits that contained Leviton Z-wave "incandescent" switches.  One circuit used a Leviton VRI06-1LZ Z-Wave 600-Watt 2-Wire dimmer switch.  The other used a  VRS05-1LZ Z-Wave 5-Amp 2-Wire non-dimming switch.  I had to use a dummy load because I was not able to run a neutral wire to these switches. The 12-watt sign bulb did the job, but it sure was ugly.   If you place a 5000K LED bulb in the same fixture as a 12-watt incandescent sign bulb, it is hard not to notice that there is a serious light output imbalance.  However, when it was not possible to run a neutral to these Leviton Z-Wave 2-Wire "incandescent" switches, what else could I do?

Last night I discovered another way.  I replaced the 12-watt incandescent sign lamp with an EarthLED Thetalux Pro 5000K, 9-watt, 700 lumens, dimmable LED light bulb and my home automation world changed forever.  I now had the ability to have rock steady performance with Leviton Z-wave 2-wire "incandescent" switches.  The lamp fixture that only 5 minutes before had looked so ugly, now looked bright and beautiful.

I do not know how well the EarthLED Thetalux Pro works in a dimming circuit.  I do not know whether or not I need to use this bulb in every lamp fixture.  I do not know how well the 2700K version of this LED bulb functions as a dummy load.  I do not know the long term effects of using this LED bulb as a dummy load for Leviton 2-wire, no-neutral Z-Wave switches instead of the 40-watt incandescent load that Leviton states is the minimum dummy load required to get these switches to function properly.  However, I do know that, at least for the time being, I will not have to use 12-watt incandescent sign bulbs or high-power load resistors to provide a dummy load for my Leviton 2-wire switches.  That is enough to brighten my day as much as the new LED bulb brightens my hallway.

If you have an interest in trying out this LED light bulb in your own home automation environment it can be found at the following URL:
http://store.earthled.com/products/earthled-thetalux-pro-9-watt-dimmable-led-light-bulb

I hope it works as well for you as it has for me.
Title: If you want to have some fun
Post by: silvereagle2208 on March 21, 2012, 04:41:54 pm
During my last reply, I tried to enter the two words sun and glasses as one word.  Somehow when this program sees the words sun and glasses written as one word, it interprets it to mean "I have a small brain"  If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.  It appears that whoever wrote the simplemachines forum program has a quirky sense of humor.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 10, 2012, 12:46:03 pm
Wondering if I should give this a try.  I have a Leviton dimmer controlling 4 led recessed lights and have noted the same behavior.
It just seems like there should be a cleaner way to do this. 
I'll read this over a few times...thanks for the info...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 10, 2012, 01:00:38 pm
Actually a Leviton rep just told me that the VRE06 would work as it is an electronic low voltage load type.
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=VRE06-1LX&section=44140&minisite=10251
Its more expensive but I'm thinking about trying one out to see if it works...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on April 11, 2012, 03:07:17 pm
I was wondering what you meant by "give it a try".  Are you looking at trying a ThetaLux LED light bulb or trying to use VRE06 as a substitute for a dummy load resistor?  If you plan to use the VRE06, please note that it appears to need a neutral wire to function.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 11, 2012, 06:51:42 pm
I have that but I ran into a problem today.  I installed it correctly and all it would do is light up to 100% and then not even turn off.
Then it heated up pretty bad.  I spoke with a Leviton rep and we checked the connections and voltage and found everything to be correct.
He felt it was a defective unit so I'm getting a replacement tomorrow.  Hopefully it works out this time around.  I explained the load to him and the details of the fixtures and everything seemed ok.  The connections are simple enough so I don't know what else the problem could be.

Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time around.  This is my first time dealing with LED lights so I'm learning as I go.
Here's how I connected it by the way.

Black-to hot wire
White-to Neutral bundle in box
red-to traveller
green-to ground

The rep agreed that the wiring was correct so we'll see what happens tomorrow...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on April 12, 2012, 02:19:31 am
I read the VRE06 installation documentation and it has two warnings regarding its use with fluorescent lighting:
To avoid overheating and possible damage to this device and other equipment, do not install to control a receptacle, fluorescent lighting, a motor- or a transformer-operated appliance.  Use with electronic low voltage transformers only. Do Not use to control a magnetic low voltage transformer. Use a Leviton magnetic low voltage dimmer to control magnetic low voltage transformers. 

My experience is that LED lamps behave similar to fluorescent lamps when used with Leviton switches, so if a switch does not support fluorescent lamps, it will not not work well with an LED lamp.

As far as I can determine,  there is no Leviton Z-wave fluorescent dimmer.  There is a Leviton Z-wave fluorescent switch, the VRS15-1LZ.  However, the only Leviton Z-wave dimmer I have found is the VRI06-1LZ.  Its installation guide states that it is to be used for incandescent lamps and that it requires a minimum 40 watt load to operate.  Through trial and error, I have learned that I can get a VRI06 dimmer to work as long as I have a EarthLED ThetaLUX LED lamp or a 12 watt sign lamp in the circuit with other LED lamps.

I hope that the replacement VRE06 dimmer works for you, but I am not surprised at the problems you have had thus far with this switch.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 12, 2012, 07:22:43 am
I hear ya.  We will see what happens this afternoon.
I have the vri06 also so I can always go back to that if this doesn't work.
Just trying to figure out where I would put the damn lamp in that configuaration.
I wish there was a better way.
Thanks
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on April 12, 2012, 11:07:54 am
What type of base do your LED lights have?  Are they the standard A19 or perhaps MR-16 (GU5.3/GU10)?   If they are A19 shape, my experience is that you might only need to replace one bulb with a Thetalux Pro and the circuit will stabilize.  If you have MR-16/MR11 bases, you could have other issues.  On the EarthLED web site, there is a note regarding fixtures designed for low voltage halogen MR16 or MR11 lamps: Special Note: Fixtures designed for low voltage halogen MR16 or MR11 lamps that use electronic transformers may need to be retrofitted with LED-compatible transformers. This is because the standard electronic transformers have a minimum power-usage requirement in order to function. Some LED-lamps may be below this usage requirement. Fixtures that use magnetic transformers can generally be used with LED-lamps without modification.

It could be that the source of your problem, is not your LED bulbs or the VRE06, but the low voltage transformer.

There is one more option you can try: Use the VRI06 (try the VRE06 dimmer as well) and keep one incandescent lamp in the circuit.  Do not replace all of them.   This could give you enough leakage current for the Leviton switch to work properly.  You will know if it is working if the LED indicator light on the switch lights up.  I know it is a kludge, but until Leviton markets a true fluorescent/LED dimmer, desperate men (and women) will be driven to desperate measures.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 12, 2012, 04:05:42 pm
They are self contained bulbs but I'll have to get the specs.
In the meantime I wired an outlet into the circuit and added a night lite and that worked like a charm!
Full on/off and smooth dimming...unbelievable.

I see no reason not to just install the outlet in a single gang box in the attic with the night lite up on a stud.  Saves me a lot of money too since that vre06 is quite a bit more money.

Sound ok to you guys?
Thanks for all the assistance!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: silvereagle2208 on April 12, 2012, 11:52:51 pm
Mario,

I'm glad to read that a night light bulb gave your circuit enough leakage current for your Leviton switch to work.  What Leviton switch are you using: the VRE06 or the VRI06?  I assume that your night light was a 7 watt bulb.  Before I found the ThetaLux LED light, I tried a 7 watt night light.  For me it was not quite stable enough, so I switched to a 12 watt sign lamp and everything worked well except I had a 2700K sign bulb paired with a 5000K LED lamp.  Then I discovered the Thetalux Pro LED lamp and since then all my VRI06 "incandescent" dimmers and VRS05 "incandescent" switches work without problems.

I see no problem with installing a 7 watt night light in your attic.  Just make sure it is well ventilated and nothing flammable is nearby.  You will know when the night light is burned out because your lights will flicker.  You could also install a 9W ThetaLux Pro bulb using some of the money you save by not buying the VRE06 and you won't have to worry about your bypass lamp burning out in the next 10 years.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: mario23 on April 14, 2012, 10:09:35 am
I left the vri06 installed.  Now that I know it can work, I see no reason to spend the extra money for the vre.  Good info on that thetalux...I'll keep that in mind.  My wife now wants to switch the kitchen lights to led.  She likes the color much more. 
Thanks for your help and I'll update when I do the kitchen...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Urodoc on May 27, 2012, 11:08:05 pm
Here is the final install....we have been running full power for hours and the heat build up is just warm to touch....that is with 10 circuits running all at once.
I will check it's temperature tomorrow but It appears that the LED dummy loads are going to work fine!
We took the output of each dimmer and fed them into the resistors shown....the common white ties them all to neutral.
The light CANs are next but I see no problems.
Regards
Tim

Tim, do you have a picture of how you mounted the dummy loads in the light cans?

Great job, btw.  I put 4 EcoSmart 6 in. 9.5-Watt (65W) LED Downlight(E)* in my office cans and added a leviton vizia rf+ dimmer with a 3-way remote switch.  The flickering has been really annoying.  An incandescent bulb fixes the problems, but this seems like a much more elegant approach. 

Patrick
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: dtl on June 09, 2012, 05:57:07 pm
So - I have this exact same problem utilizing Intermatic InTouch dimmers. The people I purchased the dimmable LEDs said outright that they would work with a normal incandescent type dimmer. They were wrong and now I am stuck with them.



So there are 4 lights in each circuit. Normal behavior when I turn the dimmer to full off is that three of them stay lit very dimly and one turns off all the way.

As a proof of concept to make sure it worked before I mounted the resistors I put one between the switch and the lights. What happened was only ONE light would turn on and refused to dim or do anything but stay on (not the same light that would turn all the way off before).

I have no idea what else to do. Any help?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on June 09, 2012, 06:05:48 pm
As a proof of concept to make sure it worked before I mounted the resistors I put one between the switch and the lights. What happened was only ONE light would turn on and refused to dim or do anything but stay on (not the same light that would turn all the way off before).
I have no idea what else to do. Any help?
Can you clarify how you are connecting the resistors?
The resistors should be connected between the output of the light switch and the neutral wire.
It sounds like you are putting the resistor in series with the light bulb.....it should be in parallel with the circuit acting as load.
Hope that helps.
Tim
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on June 09, 2012, 06:27:29 pm
Take a look....The resistor sizing will vary by the voltage of the lights...110 or 240....see previous post
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: wolfdown on June 13, 2012, 10:06:20 pm
They can be mounted in the lighting can or in our case we are remote mounting them to an aluminum plate that forms a great heat sink. These should not be used inside a wall switch or in a plastic enclosure....this is where common sense needs to be used.

Can you confirm you only need one resistor per circuit (i.e. dimmer switch)? I see you have 10 mounted, so that must be for 10 different sets of cans, not 10 cans on the same light switch, correct?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on June 14, 2012, 12:38:06 am
Quote
Can you confirm you only need one resistor per circuit (i.e. dimmer switch)? I see you have 10 mounted, so that must be for 10 different sets of cans, not 10 cans on the same light switch, correct?
Yes you are correct....one resistor per circuit. The photo is how we handled 10 circuits or dimmers.....over 45 lights....still working perfect after several months.
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on June 14, 2012, 08:39:03 am
I have installed four Commercial Electric T85 6" LED recessed light retrofit kits (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lighting-fans-indoor-lighting-indoor-ceiling-lighting-recessed-lighting-kits/commercial-electric-6-in-white-recessed-dimmable-led-retrofit-t85-153062.html) on a single Monster 600W dimmer switch (equivalent to Leviton Vizia RF) with no flicker.  I would prefer to have a relay switch there, to eliminate on-delay, but that's what I had in place for the previous incandescent fixtures.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DaveGee on June 14, 2012, 09:37:55 am
I have installed four Commercial Electric T85 6" LED recessed light retrofit kits (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lighting-fans-indoor-lighting-indoor-ceiling-lighting-recessed-lighting-kits/commercial-electric-6-in-white-recessed-dimmable-led-retrofit-t85-153062.html) on a single Monster 600W dimmer switch (equivalent to Leviton Vizia RF) with no flicker.  I would prefer to have a relay switch there, to eliminate on-delay, but that's what I had in place for the previous incandescent fixtures.

I'm not sure I understand the question... This topic is about people having issues with led lights on standard zwave dimmers. Many times the lights behave erratically due to the greatly reduced load.

You say you have a dimmer that works okay all on its own without the added resistor thats great!

You also say you want to remove that dimmer and replace it with an ordinary on/off zwave switch that's great too since the problem everyone is discussing in the thread only happens with dimming switched...  Normal full on full off switches don't run into any of this.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on June 14, 2012, 09:52:07 am
I have installed four Commercial Electric T85 6" LED recessed light retrofit kits (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lighting-fans-indoor-lighting-indoor-ceiling-lighting-recessed-lighting-kits/commercial-electric-6-in-white-recessed-dimmable-led-retrofit-t85-153062.html) on a single Monster 600W dimmer switch (equivalent to Leviton Vizia RF) with no flicker.  I would prefer to have a relay switch there, to eliminate on-delay, but that's what I had in place for the previous incandescent fixtures.
I'm not sure I understand the question... This topic is about people having issues with led lights on standard zwave dimmers. Many times the lights behave erratically due to the greatly reduced load.
I not sure I understand why you think I'm asking a question.  I am using LED lights on a 'standard' Z-wave dimmer without the problems others are experiencing.  I posted a link to the equipment I'm using.  I thought it was pertinent.
Title: Re: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: swazi on June 14, 2012, 10:09:37 am
I have installed four Commercial Electric T85 6" LED recessed light retrofit kits (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lighting-fans-indoor-lighting-indoor-ceiling-lighting-recessed-lighting-kits/commercial-electric-6-in-white-recessed-dimmable-led-retrofit-t85-153062.html) on a single Monster 600W dimmer switch (equivalent to Leviton Vizia RF) with no flicker.  I would prefer to have a relay switch there, to eliminate on-delay, but that's what I had in place for the previous incandescent fixtures.

Good to know, I have been eyeing those!
Title: Re: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on June 14, 2012, 10:14:24 am
Good to know, I have been eyeing those!
They're priced pretty reasonably.  At the time I bought them, Home Depot was even cheaper than I could find on eBay; but I see them on eBay now at lower (bid) prices.  I went from ugly incandescent track lighting to retrofitting cans & adding LEDs for under $200.  And they throw a LOT of light.  I bought six, but ended up returning two when I realized I didn't need them.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DaveGee on June 14, 2012, 11:06:33 am
I not sure I understand why you think I'm asking a question.  I am using LED lights on a 'standard' Z-wave dimmer without the problems others are experiencing.  I posted a link to the equipment I'm using.  I thought it was pertinent.

Oh okay my mistake, yes the cans you purchased have something similar tho likely not the same as what we are taking about.

Quote
Electronic LED driver (120 volts, 60 Hz) helps ensure quiet operation and soft white light with no flickering.

Which is what they are charging quite a bit extra for over a traditional recessed can. A similar result can be achieved by installing a resistor or using one incandescent bulb in a multi can setup. The difference is the can you purchased takes care of the issue in its own way and is a consumer and electrician  friendly form... Which should not be downplayed... Hey no electrician would install a resistor and assume all blame if something when wrong when for an extra $40 bucks that he'd bill to the customer he can use a ul listed product that he doesn't have to take the blame on.

Edit: Interesting reading some of the comments... People are seeing some local home depots selling these for as low as $18 bucks... No such luck in my area but even at 30 bucks it's actually not a bad item to consider... Hey thanks for the tip!  ;D

Tho it doesn't help me with my little hallway candalabra fixture...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: shady on June 19, 2012, 05:12:06 pm
I have installed four Commercial Electric T85 6" LED recessed light retrofit kits (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lighting-fans-indoor-lighting-indoor-ceiling-lighting-recessed-lighting-kits/commercial-electric-6-in-white-recessed-dimmable-led-retrofit-t85-153062.html) on a single Monster 600W dimmer switch (equivalent to Leviton Vizia RF) with no flicker.  I would prefer to have a relay switch there, to eliminate on-delay, but that's what I had in place for the previous incandescent fixtures.

That is the exact same set up I am trying (right down to the Monster brand Leviton).  I am starting to notice the ON delay more (sometimes up to a second or so) and I am not sure if it is getting worse since I leave the lights/dimmer fully dimmed.  I didn't notice the delay much when I first put them in (and probably ran them at 100% on back then).  I also tried one of the Commerical Electric T91 surface mount fixtures, but it flickered and in hindsight since only one was connected it must have been due to minimum current requirement of the dimmer. 

The nice thing about the retrofit can trims is that they are a sealed unit to prevent air exchange between the room and attic or ceiling.  I paid $35 a piece at HD.  Also if the spring clips dont match your can's hooks, just bend the tab the spring clip is attached to so that it jogs the whole clip over a bit (a couple 90 degree bends).

For the rest of the lights in the house I think I'll have to try the resistor and individual LED bulb route as it should be a bit cheaper and because the Commercial Electric 4" retrofit trims dont look like they'll fit my exisitng 4" remodel (old use) cans.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on June 19, 2012, 05:51:44 pm
if the spring clips dont match your can's hooks, just bend the tab the spring clip is attached to so that it jogs the whole clip over a bit (a couple 90 degree bends).
Funny, I discovered exactly the same thing.  The other thing I had to do was loosen the screw that holds the (normal light bulb) socket plate in place to push it deeper (which when mounted is higher) into the can.  These retrofit LEDs were a bit taller than a normal floodlight bulb, and doing this let the built-in trim plate fit a lot better.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 11, 2012, 08:40:49 am
What is the difference here?

Just ordered some of these to install inside a can on each circuit;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0087ZD0L6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

Seems like the difference is 5% alum vs. the ones on a previous post @ digikey which say 1% alum.

What exactly does the % alum do?  Should I cancel this order?  I only noticed after sending the order :)

Thanks,
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on September 11, 2012, 09:18:02 am
Quote
Seems like the difference is 5% alum vs. the ones on a previous post @ digikey which say 1% alum.

What exactly does the % alum do?  Should I cancel this order?  I only noticed after sending the order

The % refers to the accuracy of the resistor.....in this case 5% won't  be a problem.

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 11, 2012, 09:41:04 am
Excellent!
I combed back through and couldn't find the picture where you installed in the can, do you have a picture of that?  I saw the scematic, but an wondering if I should simply screw the resistor into the can through the hole?  Any screw suggestion?

Thanks
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 13, 2012, 11:12:52 am
I cancelled my Amazon order and ordered the ones from digikey just in case.  Where did you end up mounting the resistor in the can?
Do you reccomend the thermal overload circuit from your experience?  Seems like your notes indicate these never really get too hot.


 2
 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on September 13, 2012, 04:19:44 pm
I don't have a photo but I will try to get one. The resistors I used I mounted inside the can about half way inside.....just enough to clear the bulb. I used heat shrink over the solder joints to keep you being shocked by sticking your fingers inside. Mine never do get very hot.....check my previous reports. The Thermal Overload is standard in any lighting can you buy....They are in series with the bulb and I think required by code.
Regards
Tim Alls
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Urodoc on September 15, 2012, 03:53:21 pm
Thanks Tim. 
worked perfectly!
You're a genius! ;D
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 18, 2012, 09:22:06 pm
OK, just got the package with 20 of these from digikey.  If someone could post a pic of their can install it would be very helpful to me.  Thanks!

 2
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 21, 2012, 06:29:45 am
OK, I installed 1 last night on a ge/jasco dimmer circuit to test.  I have it suspended in the can and it was too hot to touch, but no hotter than an old 100 watt halogen I believe.
Will the temp drop once mounted to can?
Should I use a dab of thermal compound?
I have soldered leads to the remaining resistors, heatshrink the soldered leads per aschwabs notes and am ready to install on my remaining circuits this weekend however I am anxiously awaiting photos of other successful installs, and answer to my thermal compound question.

I do want to confirm that the circuit I installed the resistor on works flawlessly!  It was only a 3 light circuit and tested with only 2 of the eco smart/cree refrofits from home depot.

Very excited to finally solve the madness , please post your install pics if you are reading this.

I'll post some pics of what ive done so far also.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on September 21, 2012, 12:36:27 pm
Quote
OK, I installed 1 last night on a ge/jasco dimmer circuit to test.  I have it suspended in the can and it was too hot to touch, but no hotter than an old 100 watt halogen I believe.
Will the temp drop once mounted to can?
Should I use a dab of thermal compound?
I have soldered leads to the remaining resistors, heatshrink the soldered leads per aschwabs notes and am ready to install on my remaining circuits this weekend however I am anxiously awaiting photos of other successful installs, and answer to my thermal compound question.
I do want to confirm that the circuit I installed the resistor on works flawlessly!  It was only a 3 light circuit and tested with only 2 of the eco smart/cree refrofits from home depot.
Very excited to finally solve the madness , please post your install pics if you are reading this.
Here are some photos of an install in a 6 inch can....the bigger cans like this allow the resistor to be all the way in the back and not visible once the bulb bracket goes in place.....Take a look
Notes....soldering this resistor takes some heat.....make sure to insert the wire through the hole and give it enough heat to make a good bond....watch out for cold solder joints! Add heat shrink for extra shock protection.....make sure you are in PARALLEL with the bulb.....this makes the resistor act like another bulb on the circuit.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on September 21, 2012, 12:50:25 pm
Note.....
Notice in the photos that I attached the resistor very close to the thermal overload....this was to test the heat buildup in the circuit and see if I could trip the thermal overload.....so far the thermal overload has not tripped for me, however, you may want to stay further away from it to play it safe....your conditions may be different than mine. After running the light at 100% for hours the can is warm to touch, it seems to handle the heat just fine. A little heat transfer compound wouldn't hurt but I am not using it.
Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: big517 on September 22, 2012, 06:52:23 am
Works flawlessly!  I installed mine while the can was still in the ceiling so it was a bit of a challenge, but well worth it!  I chose to mount them to the top of the can as it gives me comfort to know they are closer to the thermal cutoff for safety reasons.

 Next challenge;  installing in a wall mounted sconce.  It makes me nervous as it would be mounted to the drywall essentially, or possibly hack a GU base adapter and let the resistor sit inside the glass.  My fixtures will accept 200 watt bulbs and have porcelain sockets so I may be OK, any thoughts?

Picture of my install before splicing the socket back in
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/22/yzyneve2.jpg)
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pberens on February 16, 2013, 06:22:38 pm
The Commercial Electric T85 work like a charm with Leviton Dimmers (RZI06).  They even work with only one light connected to the dimmer.   I have been struggling with LED's for years and these are the only ones I have found that actually reliably dim without flickering and don't need a dummy load or incandescent bulb installed in the circuit.  On top of it,  they look great too with no gaps around the light source and a nice clean white trim to replace my old trim that aged to yellow.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: bdaalex on February 21, 2013, 09:48:57 am
Hi,

I'm new to the forum, but this conversation has been invaluable to me. I have lutron dimmers and their tech support recommended their "synthetic minimum load" which requires a double gang box and costs 180 dollars!!! I knew there had to be a cheaper way...

Do to the massive crawl (standing) space above my ceilings, I will be mounting one of the 25W 1.5K resistors in a simple metal electrical box and wiring it in parallel to the circuit.

Are there any reasons I should be wary of the setup? And what happens if I sell the house and they want to go back to incandescent. Should this resistor be removed or no big deal leaving it?

@TimAlls, your write ups were hugely helpful, especially considering I may be doing this on my boat next...

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: a-lurker on February 21, 2013, 04:02:34 pm
I'm wondering if any one has tried the Fibaro Bypass instead of the resistor approach. The Fibaro Bypass is probably just a capacitor and resistor in series, so the parts could also be purchased fairly cheaply. So question is: does the Fibaro Bypass also solve the dimming problems and if so what's in a "Fibaro Bypass" exactly? It may be possible to avoid wasting the dummy load power all together, if it's just a capacitor and resistor combination.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on February 21, 2013, 04:25:34 pm
Quote
@TimAlls, your write ups were hugely helpful, especially considering I may be doing this on my boat next...
No Problem.....it is good for all of us to share information rather than repeating the same mistakes.

Just another update....for non-Zwave dimmers....Lutron has a new dimmer, the Lutron Maestro C-L, is made for CF bulbs and for LED's! I just installed a couple and they took care of the flickering and their dimming seems to be more linear.

FYI

Thanks
Tim Alls
Allseas Yachts
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on February 26, 2013, 04:32:27 pm
for 110v tim alls solution is a good one or a dale rh-25. For 220v dimmers use Fibar FGB001 in parallel with led light , it can be put in a mains box as it automaticly switch off at 105 degrees which is a good security feature to prevent fire. (tested over a year now with 2x 8Watt dimmable led running on 5% dimlevel every day for about 6 hours and with a 4x4Watt dimmable led running 100% for 12 hours a day, also tested both for 48 hours at 100% level)
dimmers up to 1000 Watt need 25 watt minimum load to work properly, so putting a load of 25 Watt will even work with 0,5Watt led light and it will dimm it all the way. you can offcourse take a smaller one if you have more lights on it but if one fails ur sitting with the same problem of flickering. you be wanting to cut the current and not the voltage.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pbtkerr on March 16, 2013, 04:37:15 am
Great post and thanks to TimAlls for the helpful info and instructions. I have a room with 6 Halo cans using the EcoSmart soft white retro-fit LED bulbs from Home Depot. I am using a URC/Lutron dimmer that works with my universal remote control so changing the dimmer was not an option. Had bad flickering problems right from the start. I put in one incandescent bulb and it fixed the problem but I wanted all of them to be LED!

Got very excited when I found this thread and ordered the 25W resistor. I placed it in one can, screw mounted at the top next to the heat sensor. Everything looked great but the one light clicked off after a minute. The resistor was too hot to touch and the top of the can was obviously very hot as well. Wondering if I did something wrong? 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RexBeckett on March 16, 2013, 05:12:48 am
Your resistor appears to be 220 Ohms not 1.5K (1500 Ohms) as others are using. Your resistor will draw half an amp and dissipate 55 Watts on 110 volts. That's why it's getting a bit hot!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on March 16, 2013, 05:29:16 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm)

a picture of installation of a fibaro dimmer with load
as you can see it only uses 1 to bring up the load on the dimmer to a 25Watts minimum for a 500W dimmer.
you require p=v?/R    25=220?/R   (utf8 problems :  25=(220*220)/R  )
for 110v  25=110?/R  (  25= (110*110)/R  )

R = resistance u need.
the resistor needs to be able to dissipate the load its being given. so this would make in this case a 25W version or perhaps 50W so it will stay nice n cool
do not mind the colors of wires in my setup as i just took what wire i had available.

as you can see the load is connected to the output on the dimmer itself
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RexBeckett on March 16, 2013, 05:40:55 am
Quote
For 220v dimmers use Fibar FGB001 in parallel with led light , it can be put in a mains box as it automaticly switch off at 105 degrees which is a good security feature to prevent fire.
Did you figure out what's inside a FGB001? They are not too expensive so it probably isn't worth trying to substitute with passive components but I'm just interested in their solution. Does it dissipate any heat?

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on March 16, 2013, 05:51:11 am
well i turned the led lights on (4 of 4 Watts Cree) and have them on since 6 o clock so thats about 4 hours. the thing gets hardly warm. it is like 20 degrees temp or so.
i looked at there http://materialy.fibaro.com/instrukcje/bypass%20FGB001.pdf   and as you can see it is attached different then i have mine.
i use separate 220v mains to power the fibaro, which makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RexBeckett on March 16, 2013, 06:23:52 am
Quote
the thing gets hardly warm.
It must be reactive then. That's a much better solution than having a dummy load eating more watts than the LEDs.  :o  That somewhat defeats the energy-saving aspect of LED lighting.  ???  Sounds like another well-engineered solution.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on March 16, 2013, 06:26:38 am
Quote
the thing gets hardly warm.
It must be reactive then. That's a much better solution than having a dummy load eating more watts than the LEDs.  :o  That somewhat defeats the energy-saving aspect of LED lighting.  ???  Sounds like another well-engineered solution.

so it is, i think its a capacitive resistance

check this out http://www.jmf-gadget.com/Webwinkel-Category-618160/LED-Weerstand-Ontstoring.html
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RexBeckett on March 16, 2013, 08:53:51 am
So are you going to add CanBus to your home wiring? I guess it could work if you have a central low-voltage source. Not for me, though, I don't want to run any more cables.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: a-lurker on March 16, 2013, 04:36:57 pm
Certainly defeats the energy efficiency of LED lighting. On the automotive LEDs - Replacing filament bulbs with LED lights often results in the car computer announcing that the bulbs have died, when in fact they are just operating with a lower current. Rather than adding in devices that deliberately waste extra current so the car computer is happy - you would reckon they could just reprogram the trip levels on the current sensors they use (assuming that's how it all works).
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on March 16, 2013, 04:45:51 pm
So are you going to add CanBus to your home wiring? I guess it could work if you have a central low-voltage source. Not for me, though, I don't want to run any more cables.

no a friend of mine uses them in his restaurant and has about 30 of em. have no problem with cables since the place got a lowered ceiling with plenty of space above it.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on March 16, 2013, 04:49:47 pm
Certainly defeats the energy efficiency of LED lighting. On the automotive LEDs - Replacing filament bulbs with LED lights often results in the car computer announcing that the bulbs have died, when in fact they are just operating with a lower current. Rather than adding in devices that deliberately waste extra current so the car computer is happy - you would reckon they could just reprogram the trip levels on the current sensors they use (assuming that's how it all works).
it has an normal bulb which is a sort of shortcut, does not light up with very low voltage puls when computer checks for it. led light have a anode and kathode and are not connected there is a tiny little gap between, so the puls cannot detect the load on it. add a tiny capicitor along connecting points and it will do fine.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: TimAlls on March 18, 2013, 09:12:59 am
Quote
the thing gets hardly warm.
It must be reactive then. That's a much better solution than having a dummy load eating more watts than the LEDs.  :o  That somewhat defeats the energy-saving aspect of LED lighting.  ???  Sounds like another well-engineered solution.
In my case I was using six 50 watt halogen bulbs for a total of 300 watts total until I switched to the LEDs which pull 42 watts plus 9 from the dummy load totaling 51 watts.....300 or 51.....I don't think a dummy load defeats the purpose!
As for a reactive dummy load.....how many watts does it use?
Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: pbtkerr on March 22, 2013, 03:35:22 am
Got the correct resistor and my led lights can be dimmed to any level - flicker free. Excellent advice! 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: shady on April 02, 2013, 02:56:24 pm
As I posted here a while back, running (4) of the Home Depot bought T85 Commercial Electric recessed can LED trims on a Leviton 600W Z-Wave dimmer I was not having any flicker issues.  I think there needs to be at least 4 of them installed to avoid any flicker.  So fast forward to now, and the T85 has been discontinued and replace with a cheaper, more efficient, 20 less lumens, slightly warmer colored version they call the T65.  When I installed some this weekend I ended up with a new problem for me (I have since found others on the forum experiencing it), which is the light flickering when off.

Good news is that the Dummy Load fixes it.  I have never experienced the flickering when on or off, so I followed @TimAlls expert instruction and first tried a few candelabra sockets and a couple 10W candelabra appliance bulbs and placed one on each switch leg of lights.  Problem solved.  Now I can replace the 10W bulbs with the recommended resistors instead.

These resistors happen to be On Sale since they aren't RoHS compliant for $2.16 ea...I picked up a Raspberry Pi while I was at it since Newark has a few left.

http://www.newark.com/vishay-dale/rh0251k500fc02/resistor-wirewound-1-5kohm-25w/dp/01F9832?Ntt=RH0251K500FC02

I will try the Dummy Load Resistors on other LED circuits that haven't experience flicker and see if it improves the slight On Delay or allows for smoother dimming, etc.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: wantonsoup on May 08, 2013, 10:28:42 pm
I just want to verify I'm on the right track before I order and attempt this.  My issue is with Leviton Z-wave dimmers on circuits with all LED bulbs.  I'm in the USA so not dealing with 220 or anything like that.

1) Order KAL25FB1K50 1.5K OHM 25W Resistors (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/KAL25FB1K50/KAL25FB1K50-ND/1646191?cur=USD), one per circuit (not one per can light, correct?)

2) Install them inside a can light connecting one end to the black wire, one end to the white wire.

3) Mount to the can so the entire can acts to dissipate the heat.

4) Revel in my flicker-free LED bulb lighting circuit with a beer and a nap.

Do I have it correct?  Thanks for the help in advance.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: shady on May 08, 2013, 11:22:17 pm
I just want to verify I'm on the right track before I order and attempt this.  My issue is with Leviton Z-wave dimmers on circuits with all LED bulbs.  I'm in the USA so not dealing with 220 or anything like that.

1) Order KAL25FB1K50 1.5K OHM 25W Resistors (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/KAL25FB1K50/KAL25FB1K50-ND/1646191?cur=USD), one per circuit (not one per can light, correct?)

2) Install them inside a can light connecting one end to the black wire, one end to the white wire.

3) Mount to the can so the entire can acts to dissipate the heat.

4) Revel in my flicker-free LED bulb lighting circuit with a beer and a nap.

Do I have it correct?  Thanks for the help in advance.

Yes, that is what I followed and it has been working for me.  You just need one per circuit.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: qpcharry on May 10, 2013, 06:40:08 pm
Hi

I am a professional installer in canada  and have been installing the lutron radio ra2 for a while. But recently I have decided to switch to z wave coz of its spreading popularity and cost effectiveness. Now I am trying this at my home just to make sure that before doing any professional install I am ready with all ifs and buts. Now in my master bed room I have 10 potlights which are using incadecent bulbs. If I replace them with 9 watt leds what is a possibility of flickering. I have installed vri 06 leviton dimmer. I have read the instruction that came with dimmer and it says minimum 40 watts. Now all 10 add together comes to 90 watts. ThanksWEPUBW
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: garrettwp on May 10, 2013, 07:08:31 pm
It depends in the led bulb that you use. I have the same dimmers as you and have philips led bulbs (the ones with the yellow tops) and they work great in the four cans that I have for my home theater lighting. You already meet the minimum load, you would need to find the right led bulbs that will not cause issues as not all led bulbs are created equal. I am thinking of testing out the new cree led bulbs as well.

- Garrett
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: qpcharry on May 11, 2013, 11:14:11 am
Thanks garrettwp. I have been testing 9 w  daylight Cree 9 units  for now 14 days they work great. No problems so far. Another thing I noticed while changing the Cree bulbs from one room to  another that they were hot even though they were off. I assume becoz the dimmer is flowing current through them to keep Z wave module going. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: WinstonJones on July 29, 2013, 05:24:35 am
It depends in the led bulb that you use. I have the same dimmers as you and have philips led lighting (http://www.niceledlights.com) (the ones with the yellow tops) and they work great in the four cans that I have for my home theater lighting. You already meet the minimum load, you would need to find the right led bulbs that will not cause issues as not all led bulbs are created equal. I am thinking of testing out the new cree led bulbs as well.

- Garrett


hello friend you seems to be experienced person so can you tell which lights are best suited as dummy lights in this case?Waiting for reply thanks in advance:)
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: rgreenpc on August 04, 2013, 09:00:09 pm
It depends in the led bulb that you use. I have the same dimmers as you and have philips led bulbs (the ones with the yellow tops) and they work great in the four cans that I have for my home theater lighting. You already meet the minimum load, you would need to find the right led bulbs that will not cause issues as not all led bulbs are created equal. I am thinking of testing out the new cree led bulbs as well.

- Garrett

Garrett - Do you have a resistor installed in-line?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: greenhighlighter on August 10, 2013, 11:42:26 am
Hi all,

We have the CA600 dimmer switches and are trying to use them with our LEDs...  so far without success.

My electrician has read this thread and installed the resistors as specified.  The dimmer switch turns the lights on, but when on the highest level, the lights flickers.  But if it's below max, the lights are fine.  But then when we try to turn the lights off, they do this glowing, flickering thing.  My electrician also tried installing 2 resistors but nothing.  He's tried them in series and parallel.  Nothing seems to work.  We've tried with different types of LEDs -- the Halo plug ins (as in the picture) and then also Phillips screw in LEDs. 

And we have several lights already on the switch.  We have 7 of the Halo plug ins on one switch.  And for the Phillips LEDs, we have 9 on the CA600.

What are we doing wrong??  I've attached a photo of the resistor attached to one of the Halo lights.

Thanks, all!!!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Z-Waver on August 10, 2013, 01:20:44 pm
When you had the resistor wired in parallel, you had it correct.

Are the LEDs of the dimmable variety? Many LEDs are not dimmable. If they are dimmable then I would recommend trying a different switch(cheaper than different LEDs). I've had good luck with the Evolve LRM-AS Dimmer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U1TR9I/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006U1TR9I&linkCode=as2&tag=zwavec-20) (Requires neutral) without any resistors. Just be aware that you must use a Evolve LTM-5 Remote Switch (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008OF8CJO/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B008OF8CJO&linkCode=as2&tag=zwavec-20) for 3-way and n-way applications.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: greenhighlighter on August 12, 2013, 02:38:39 pm
When you had the resistor wired in parallel, you had it correct.

Are the LEDs of the dimmable variety? Many LEDs are not dimmable. If they are dimmable then I would recommend trying a different switch(cheaper than different LEDs). I've had good luck with the Evolve LRM-AS Dimmer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U1TR9I/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006U1TR9I&linkCode=as2&tag=zwavec-20) (Requires neutral) without any resistors. Just be aware that you must use a Evolve LTM-5 Remote Switch (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008OF8CJO/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B008OF8CJO&linkCode=as2&tag=zwavec-20) for 3-way and n-way applications.

Good question about the lights.  I went back and double-checked.  All the lights are dimmable. 

I'm super bummed that it's not working.  Ideally, I'd like to get these dimmers working rather than buying new ones. 

Does the way it's wired in the photo look right?

Should we try 3 resistors?  The switches work fine when we plug in a single incandescent (albeit 60w... didn't have any lower watt ones on hand) in with the group of LEDs. 

Any thoughts would be great.  We are going to figure this out!!!   ???
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Z-Waver on August 12, 2013, 08:20:41 pm
It's very hard to see how you have the wiring, but it looks right. And if that is wired parallel then it is correct.

As for figuring it out; that's already done. Either replace the switches or replace the LEDs, you've proven that the two that you have don't work together.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: oTi@ on August 13, 2013, 07:07:35 am
The switches work fine when we plug in a single incandescent (albeit 60w...
You could try to find the lowest wattage incandescent bulb that still works, and see if there is a suitable resistor.

Should we try 3 resistors?
No; you would probably go out of spec.

Probably best to be safe and find a suitable dimmer with a neutral, and see how that goes? (I imagine these kitchen lights are on a lot?)
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: greenhighlighter on August 13, 2013, 11:49:07 am
OK.  I'm going to test some lower wattage bulbs.

I'd really love for these dimmers to work b/c they're a fraction of the cost of others.  And convincing my husband to lay out $$ for the other dimmers  may be tough.

Super bummed b/c this workaround seems to have worked for everyone else that has tried it.  I was hoping that there was something we were doing wrong that we could just fix and voila! 
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: wseverino on August 13, 2013, 12:55:36 pm
The Evolve LRM-AS and LTM-15's work like a champ with LED's. No flicker, no resistors need. Just hook them up and go!
 ;D
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: greenhighlighter on August 13, 2013, 01:42:22 pm
The Evolve LRM-AS and LTM-15's work like a champ with LED's. No flicker, no resistors need. Just hook them up and go!
 ;D

But much more expensive.  Especially for the 3+-ways!

It's sounding like we'll just have to wait on the dimmers.  Anyone want to buy some CA600s?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: kyleyost on October 02, 2013, 10:22:13 am
This thread has been terribly useful.  Thanks in particular to TimAlls.

I am about to dive in with the 25W resistors and expect it will work as 10watt incandescents seem to do the trick.  But first I thought I would try and see whether anyone had thoughts on the cause of my flickering, because the observed behavior is quite inexplicable.

I completed a major renovation with full gutting and all new electric, and have installed LEDs throughout the entire house.  9 rooms have LEDs on dimmers, anywhere from 1 bulb to 8 per circuit.  For the most part, each room is on it's own circuit at the panel with outlets and lighting on separate circuits.  So, the entire draw per breaker at panel is extraordinarily low.  Relevant?  Maybe.

LEDs are Home Depot Ecosmart 9.5watt (http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-6-in-9-5-Watt-65W-Soft-White-2700K-LED-Downlight-E-ECO-575L/202240932) and dimmers are Lutron CTCL-153PDH-WH (http://www.prolighting.com/ctcl-153p.html?gclid=CK-0vZip-LkCFYmf4Aod2BkAYg) for which the Ecosmart bulbs are included in the compatible list.

All LEDs on standard switches, ie, non-dimmable, work flawlessly always.

LEDs on dimmers are unpredictable.  Typically they work flawlessly.  Sometimes they flicker.  Sometimes they work flawlessly and then inexplicably start to flicker when nothing else has happened in the house.  Sometimes there is clear interaction occurring across different circuits at the panel.  Moving the dimmer from full to half in the kitchen will cause the master bedroom lights to flicker.  This behavior is not consistently reproducable, but there is definitely interaction happening across circuits.  Putting one dimmer to full often causes the flickering in another room (on a different dimmer and a different panel circuit) to stop flickering.  It's insane.

Shared neutrals could explain interaction, but an electrician cannot find anything wrong with the wiring, and the wiring is all new.  Lutron tech support has no idea.  The thinking is that I am getting "dirty, spikey" voltage coming into the house, but that does not explain the interaction across circuits.  Could the fact that these circuits at panel are drawing next to no watts and that they are all tightly wrapped together as they leave the panel before spreading out across the house come into play?  Grasping at straws but cannot explain the cross-circuit interaction?

I have no doubt that putting resistors in all the dimmable circuits will solve the issue as a 10watt incandescent seems to, but I am an energy junkie and the idea of adding 10watts to each circuit of my whole house LED install turns my stomach.  I spent big money on all these dimmers and LEDs and made sure they were compatible, so this kind of disgusts me.  It also perplexes me.

Any thoughts on the possible cause of this is appreciated.  Meanwhile I am going to reluctantly proceed with resistors.  Someone please confirm that the 25w 1.5Kohm resistors recommended in this thread only draw an excess 10watts, not 25 watts.  Thanks much
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on October 07, 2013, 08:08:14 pm
this could happen when a lot of loads are on the same mains circuit, like in a apartment building. you could check if all the dimmers are correctly wired as in the neutral is connected to neutral on the dimmers and the fase is connected to fase. see if you have a washing machine or dryer connected, this sometimes causes spikes on the net when they slowing down and don't have a interference suppression capacitor. they generate electricity when they have no power to the drum and it is slowing down so they need to be disconnected when that happens. as most led-lights are using blockwave fase vs sinus wave they cause a huge impact on the generators in the electricity company. this is going to be some major issue in the future when all people are using led-lights. also a possibility is that the earth-wire is not connected ok and not having 0-48 volts on it.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: kyleyost on October 07, 2013, 09:05:58 pm
Status - I have added the resistors to 7 out of my 10 dimmer circuits so far.  Flickering problem is solved in 6 of the 7 rooms and is much improved in the 7th, though occasional flickering still occurs much to my great dismay.  This room also has the most LEDs of any single dimmer at 9.  I will try adding a 2nd resistor to another LED on that circuit.  Fingers crossed.

All dimmers are wired correctly, ie neutral to neutral, hot to hot.

There is not a lot of load on the main circuit.  I have a plug-in electric vehicle, so on occasion there is a 4kw load for a few hours at a time, but other than that the house is ultra-efficient.  Baseline load is about 70 watts at the panel.  I've had an electrician out who could find no issues with the electrical, but the idea of the earth ground being bad is new.

I guess it doesn't matter, though.  As much as I hate to add the extra load, I am going down this path of adding resistors to all my dimmer circuits.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on October 07, 2013, 09:16:16 pm
probably the 9 leds on 1 dimmer are to much for the device. 2nd resistor would make this even worse and is totally not neccesary as 1 is enough to get it past the base load needed for the dimmer.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: harphaulingdad on October 07, 2013, 09:33:19 pm
I too, tried this with my dimmers and dimmable LEDs, but still have the problem of occasional flicker, and even have an LED turn on by itself on occasion. This happens on several circuits of either 2 or 4 bulbs, so I know it is not a one-time issue (same behavior occurs whether I have the resistors in the circuit or not unfortunately). This NEVER happens if I leave one incandescent bulb in the circuit. I don't really want to change my zwave dimmers, as that is a large expense in itself. And my home has light switches of the traditional type, rather than the more "fashionable" decorator-type switches, which would mean completely changing out all switches to match.

I know I could wire up a small nightlight into the circuit and probably resolve this, but that is another thing to hide and at some point burn out and need replacing, which is not ideal either. If anyone has other ideas, I would welcome them; otherwise I'll just continue on with my mixed-bulb environment -- not ideal, but better than nothing.

This has been quite an enlightening and interesting thread. I wish the manufacturers would acknowledge this issue and provide some sort of solution. I've written to a couple, and heard nothing back at all.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RichardTSchaefer on October 07, 2013, 09:39:40 pm
You have mixed apples and oranges in this thread.

The reason for Resistors in parallel with the LED/CFL lamps are for Dimmers (Z-Wave) that require a minimum amount of leakage current to power the Z-Wave electronics. Most of these dimmers were designed for Incandescent lights ... that would satisfy this need. The Z-Wave dimmers that are designed to have a neutral wire attached to the dimmer do not need this leakage current ... and hence do not need the resistors.

The Lutron dimmer is designed to work with LEDs without the need of a neutral wire.

I am not sure what your problem is ... it almost sounds like you have a floating neutral. A recording dual recording voltmeter in your Power panel might be interesting as you turn loads on and off.


Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: kyleyost on October 07, 2013, 10:24:19 pm
Thank you for the response, Richard.

I assume the electrician would have picked up on a "floating neutral", but maybe I'll get another one in for another assessment.  If I have an electrical issue I do not want to simply hide it behind some resistors I tuck away in light cans.

If, as you say, this is apples and oranges and the resistor approach is not needed in my Lutron dimmer scenario, why does the resistor approach solve the problem, for 6 of the 7 circuits done so far at least?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Da_JoJo on October 07, 2013, 10:35:53 pm
some leds are phase-dimmed and some are puls dimmed. i reckon there is a problem with the length of the pulse, so it's probably puls dimmed and some of this leds won't work well with that.
using a load for the lutron is solving this issue a little by adding a little in the puls for dimming but it wont solve the issue. if there is a minimum load needed for the dimmer to work it needs a resistor but like richard mentioned this specific lutron doesnt seem to need one. i dont own a lutron so i wouldnt know without seeing the specs. but im sure the problem lies in the type of dimmable leds u use.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: SirMeili on October 08, 2013, 08:54:06 pm
some leds are phase-dimmed and some are puls dimmed. i reckon there is a problem with the length of the pulse, so it's probably puls dimmed and some of this leds won't work well with that.
using a load for the lutron is solving this issue a little by adding a little in the puls for dimming but it wont solve the issue. if there is a minimum load needed for the dimmer to work it needs a resistor but like richard mentioned this specific lutron doesnt seem to need one. i dont own a lutron so i wouldnt know without seeing the specs. but im sure the problem lies in the type of dimmable leds u use.

I really don't know why the Lutron doesn't need it, but I have 1 lutron dimmer controlling 2 small LED recessed light trims without an issue (they are well under the 40w limit of my Leviton z-wave dimmers). It could be the trims I'm using and not the switch, but the dimmer is made for "LEDs". I plan on taking one of my leviton z-wave dimmers and putting it in place of the lutron to see if it still works without the resistor work around. I'm hopeful that it  will work just fine, but realistically I'm not sure it will. I will report back if it does work, but as you said, sometimes these things just work due to the type of LEDs you use regardless of the dimmer (My 2 current Levitons work just fine controlling 6 recessed 9w cams on each circuit, but that is over the 40w minimum for the switches. I also use one that doesn't use the Neutral and it works fine with LEDs as well).

BTW, I currently use the HomeDepot EcoSmart trims because they 1) Use Cree LEDS and 2) have always worked great on any dimmer I put them on (even non-z-wave ones)
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: RV on November 22, 2013, 03:22:31 pm
great stuff..
I've found it does depend on the bulb used, and how many used.
I'm using GE 45612 Z-Wave Wireless Lighting Control In-Wall Dimmers. These are 2 pole only. You can't connect a neutral wire.

1st:  application is the dining room chandelier with 6 "Feit Electric LED Dimmable CFC Candelabra Base 4.8watt/40watt 300 Lumens (3-Pack)" ... This works perfectly.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ED55XT6/


2nd: breakfast nook with  4 of "Philips 423798 13-Watt (65 Watt) BR30 Indoor Soft White (2700K) Flood LED Light Bulb, Dimmable". This worked with three LED bulbs but not 4. When the 4th was added all four bulbs began to blink off and on. It will need a dummy load resistor.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NNZSI0/
these bulbs look great (color wise)by the way and slightly brighter than the incandescent 65 watt bulbs

3rd: bedroom overhead light with 2 of "FEIT Electric LED Light Bulb A19 3 Pack 40W Replacement Uses 7.5W 500 Lumens Dimmable" ... this was wackiest of all. With 2 LED bulbs installed, when I connected the  GE 45612 switch the LED on the switch went blue and everything looked good. When I turned it on, the lights ramped up to 100% and then shut down to about 10%. The LED on the switch was a dim blue and blinking. I had to remove the wire to the switch to reset it.
So, just for fun I added a night lite to the circuit. The  lights ramped turned up to 100% and then shut off (0%) and would not turn back on. So 4 watts was not enough of a load. I removed the nightlight and added a string of 10 Christmas C7 bulbs. I then unscrewed them 1 by 1 until the lights shut off. It turns out the 3 C7 lights was the magic number so it looks like a 1.5K Ω load should work.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D7Z1Q9E/

4th.. kitchen ..I'm about to see what happens with 5 "Philips 423798 13-Watt (65 Watt) BR30 Indoor Soft White (2700K) Flood LED Light Bulb, Dimmable" and the GE 45612 dimmer.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: rgreenpc on January 09, 2014, 10:07:32 pm
RV -

Any update as I am in the final stages of building and the wife wants to know what I am going with as far as bulbs.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: jaden on January 23, 2014, 04:16:58 am
You can place  an iron core LV Halogen transformer in parallel with the flickering LED and see if it stops it.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: geoff on March 03, 2014, 05:41:39 pm
Hi all... I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I ask something stupid or something that has already been answered.

The issue I'm having is with dimmable LEDs and dimmers. I'm using LightwaveRF dimmers (sometimes branded Siemens) and when connected to a single BC22 LED bulb it flickers when turned up and still glows when turned off. After extensive reading I understand that there isn't sufficient load in the circuit and one solution is to wire a second dimmable LED in parallel to the 'main' LED or a low voltage incandescent bulb in the same way. I've tried both of these, and they both work (ie the LED dims correctly and switches off completely). But I'm not comfortable with the prospect of hiding bulbs in the ceiling void. LightwaveRF recommend a Danlers 10w RESLOADE resistive load to be wired across the LED bulb but at about the same cost as the dimmer switch (about ?25), this seems like an expensive way of trying to save money. Aurora make a similar device at about half the price but they seem to be out of stock everywhere with no sign of a delivery anytime soon.

Then I had a brainwave. Why can't I use a transformer designed for low voltage LEDs? Halolite makes a 20-60VA dimmable electronic 240v transformer which is intended to be connected in place of a 240v bulb and have a number of 12v bulbs connected to its output. It's designed to go into the ceiling void and although I would actually want to connect low voltage bulbs to it in this case, would this work as a dummy load to prevent LED flicker?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Z-Waver on March 05, 2014, 09:51:47 am
Maybe.

But rather than making a mess, just buy the resistor, there are cheaper 10watt resistors out there, or use a different dimmer that is capable of dimming LEDs(much more expensive).
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: ellisr63 on June 17, 2014, 12:59:50 am
I am running Insteon dimmable switched outlets for my LED rope lights in our home theater and they also will not turn off completely, although they will dim down to 4% of full bright. I am at a loss as what to do. Would it be possible to use a 2 way ac plug and plug the rope lights in one end and a night light in the other to solve the problem? Is there a nice safe way to do this?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: shpitz461 on September 11, 2014, 10:26:05 pm
I have a GE 45612 dimmer installed in the kitchen, controlling 4 bulbs. This evening I switched the 65W BR30 incandescent with Sylvania 18-Watt BR40 LEDs.

When I have 3 of the bulbs installed and the 4th is the incandescent, the dimmer works great.

When I have all 4 LEDs installed, the dimmer works fine up to about 60%, then 60% and above they all flicker. What I find odd is that most reports of flickering is on low levels, in my case it's the opposite: low levels of dim are fine, only when i turn up the light then they flicker.

I would most likely install a regular switch instead of the dimmer (we don't need a dimmer in the kitchen), but would like to know what can be done to make it work?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Damian R on September 12, 2014, 01:41:37 am

I have a GE 45612 dimmer installed in the kitchen, controlling 4 bulbs. This evening I switched the 65W BR30 incandescent with Sylvania 18-Watt BR40 LEDs.

When I have 3 of the bulbs installed and the 4th is the incandescent, the dimmer works great.

When I have all 4 LEDs installed, the dimmer works fine up to about 60%, then 60% and above they all flicker. What I find odd is that most reports of flickering is on low levels, in my case it's the opposite: low levels of dim are fine, only when i turn up the light then they flicker.

I would most likely install a regular switch instead of the dimmer (we don't need a dimmer in the kitchen), but would like to know what can be done to make it work?

Thanks!

I believe you need a neutral wire for LED bulbs to dim properly, which the 45612 does not have...
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: shpitz461 on September 12, 2014, 04:14:16 pm
Thanks damianr, I'll get one that has the neutral and give it a shot!
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Damian R on September 12, 2014, 06:57:59 pm
I unfortunately bought a few of these as well before realizing that I could not dim my LED bulbs properly. Since I cannot return them, I've been forced to switch back to 40w incandescents. :/
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: etc6849 on November 13, 2014, 12:00:19 am
The dummy load idea is interesting.  A few years back, I tried several types of LED bulbs on my Leviton VRI06 z-wave dimmers and ended up returning them all except four utilitech pro 100 W lamps that seemed to work on one dimmer if I used four at a time (too expensive to put in other rooms at 4x$40).  These were the ONLY lamps I tried that were acceptable, and I needed four per dimmer!

A few years later, the dimmer still works fine, so I decided to find a cheaper alternative for my other rooms.  I found the new Cree 75W LED works great, as does the more expensive Cree TrueWhite CRI-93 60W lamp.  I hear no buzzing with the Cree, and there's an acceptable variation in brightness (maybe 10% to 100%).  Best of all, if I turn the dimmer down to 1%, nothing bad happens, even with one Cree 75W LED installed it sets there at about 10% brightness quietly shining! 

Unfortunately, the under $10 Cree 9.5W (60W equivalent) lamps flicker and seem unstable, but for another $5, these 75W lamps are worth it.  Am I missing something by not using a dummy load though?  Is it a known fact these lamps are going to shorten my dimmers lifespan?
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: SirMeili on November 13, 2014, 02:53:31 pm
Unfortunately, the under $10 Cree 9.5W (60W equivalent) lamps flicker and seem unstable, but for another $5, these 75W lamps are worth it.  Am I missing something by not using a dummy load though?  Is it a known fact these lamps are going to shorten my dimmers lifespan?

I have the $10 Crees from Home depot in single lamps on lamp modules that work fine. I also have a ceiling figure in my master bath with 2 of them that run off of the Leviton VRI dimmers (no neutral) that work just fine as well.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: etc6849 on November 13, 2014, 07:52:25 pm
I should post which lamps instead of just stating the price (since prices vary depending on utility subsidies):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U100/204592770

Note the model number I tried is Model # BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U100 and I tried 2 and 3 at a time with Leviton VRI06 dimmers. 

They flickered too much at low brightness, so I just returned all of them and bought these:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-75W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-BA19-11027OMF-12DE26-1U100/204715054

Model # BA19-11027OMF-12DE26-1U100

It sucks that Home Depot reuses the store SKU for different versions of the same bulb (I think the one we are talking about has 4 different model numbers and one store SKU!?!).  I think we probably tried different versions of the same bulb.  Mine was the newest one in the store as of last week...  The 75W bulb is a much better bulb IMHO as it has a bigger heat sink, which should mean longer life if you dim the bulb.  It has more light output too and was the brightest LED I could find locally that is also rated for enclosed fixtures.

I also found a solution for those candle E12 lights where you have extra space and just want more light:
http://www.amazon.com/10-Pack-E12-E26-E27-Adapter/dp/B00AJ566A4/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1415925463&sr=1-2&keywords=e12+to+e26+adapter

One can extend a fixture cover down using threaded lamp pipe and a nipple.  I couldn't find 3 60W LED E12 candelabra lamps that worked well enough with the VRI06, so I'm just going to get the E12 to E26 adapters and use 3 75W Cree lamps after bringing the globe down 1.5".  This seems much cheaper than replacing the fixture + dimmer + coordinating dimmer remote.

Unfortunately, the under $10 Cree 9.5W (60W equivalent) lamps flicker and seem unstable, but for another $5, these 75W lamps are worth it.  Am I missing something by not using a dummy load though?  Is it a known fact these lamps are going to shorten my dimmers lifespan?

I have the $10 Crees from Home depot in single lamps on lamp modules that work fine. I also have a ceiling figure in my master bath with 2 of them that run off of the Leviton VRI dimmers (no neutral) that work just fine as well.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: SirMeili on November 13, 2014, 07:55:41 pm
Yup.... Unless they changed how they are made, mine work fine. I might have one still in packaging to check the model number against but I have zero flickering with any of my Cree bulbs.

Edit.. I just checked and my model number ends in 1U100 not 2U100. Looks like they may have changed something.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/13/56950e4a27e206471879ba1d5213ebe2.jpg)

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: brandoncreel on January 18, 2015, 02:00:01 pm

Quote
However, that load is only present when the lights are on......so there is little or no heat at all when dimmed down or in the off position.
True, but also for safety you need to plan your heat budget under the scenario that the dimmer is on 100% 24/7, even if in practice it isn't.

Absolutely.....saftey always comes first. The final install will be using aluminum cased 1.5K thermal resistors (picture below).
They can be mounted in the lighting can or in our case we are remote mounting them to an aluminum plate that forms a great heat sink. These should not be used inside a wall switch or in a plastic enclosure....this is where common sense needs to be used.

I will post a finished photo tomorrow ..... end results are stable dimming rates and No Flicker for 10 different styles and brands of LED Lighting! The lights still cannot go below a 10% dim.....thats where they stop but the benefits are obvious. We have switched to an EcoSmart 9 watt (40 watt equivalent) LED bulb and they are working great for general overhead lighting in our yachts. These put out 3,000 K light temp and I wish I could get them closer to 2500....just a little more yellow would make them perfect.

Regards
Tim Alls
AllSeas Yachts

Thanks Tim!  I did exactly as you stated and my leds are dimming great. For others, I had 4 x 9.5 watt leds from Home Depot and my GE dimmer has a 40 watt incandescent (resistive) minimum load. From time to time I'd get flickering of my lights but by adding the resister they look perfect!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: healeydave on January 23, 2015, 01:32:08 pm
Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help me.

I tried to use the information in this thread to sort my Dimmable LED issue out.

I am in the UK, so am operating on 240V.

I have a 8 GU10 light fittings in my lounge. These are configured in 4 Pairs and go back to a NJD DPX4/10 Dimmer pack (so 4 circuits):
Diagram of Lounge Configuration:
 http://www.tivoland.com/ebaypics/LoungelightingDiagram.png (http://www.tivoland.com/ebaypics/LoungeLightingDiagram.png)

Dimmer Pack:
https://www.electrovision.co.uk/homepage.aspx?com=product&pg=1801&productid=3669&tl=1182&bp=0#pagefocus

I have swapped out traditional 50W Halogen Bulbs for Dimmable 4.5W LED's, so a total of 9W is running on each output circuit of the Dimmer Pack:
LED's:
http://www.ledhut.co.uk/home-page-bestsellers/new-4-5-watt-gu10-led-350-lumens.html

I tried to order some 3K 25W Chassis Resistors from a local supplier but they sent the wrong ones, I ended up with 4K7 25W 5%

I decided to install these anyway as after reading through the thread, there seemed to be some ambiguity as to what would work in the UK on 240V anyway so call me the guinea pig :-)

I installed one of these resistors in parallel on the Dimmer Packs output line (to the GU10's) across the Neutral & Live on each circuit output.

The result was the LED's work fine with negligible flicker and also DIM through the levels I had already programmed for the previous Halogen bulbs which I was ecstatic over.

Trouble is, my satisfaction was short lived, after being on for something between 30 mins to 1 hour , I noticed a burning smell coming from the Dimmer Pack. I cut the power off whilst everything was still working fine.

I haven't had chance to take it apart and inspect yet (thats a job for tomorrow).

Anyone know what could be wrong because I think my implementation was ok from a working standpoint anyway :-(

Attached is a pic of the Resistors installed at the top of the dimmer pack. I chose not to mount them on the metal chassis due to space but could it be simply that they were getting too hot that was making the smell?


 http://www.tivoland.com/ebaypics/DPX4ResistorInstall.JPG (http://www.tivoland.com/ebaypics/DPX4ResistorInstall.JPG)


Ok, whilst waiting for a few days moderation, I had time to investigate.
I'd already decided the implementation was probably sound due to the fact that nothing had blown or stopped working and on further inspection, I discovered the plastic on the "chock-block" connectors I used to make the connections was melting from the heat of the resistors causing the smell.

I revisited the installation and mounted the resistors on the lid of the dimmer pack and soldered the connections this time.
I've been monitoring the heat and it seems perfectly acceptable. The case is doing a good job of aiding dissipation, it gets quite hot to touch literally where the resistors are mounted after the lights have been on full brightness for a few hours, but it does seem to plato out to a level that I wouldn't deem a danger.

UPDATE:
Ok, It appears I have an over-heating problem with this solution when using the LEDs on full brightness levels.
My lights are cutting out after a period of time, presumably the dimmer pack has a thermal cut-out.
Upon observation after such an incident, the case is very hot and if allowed to cool down, starts to operate again there-after.

As there have been no replies to this thread since I started this project, I think I am going to have to concede defeat and look for an alternative solution as I have exhausted my knowledge of what has been previously written.

Also, to be honest anything that generates this kind of heat makes me think this was never going to be a particularly efficient solution.
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: tyfoon on March 27, 2015, 04:34:46 pm
Maybe this is a very stupid question but can't find the answer:

I have about 6 of these fibaro bypass resistors in place. If the light is out, do they actually consume power? if yes, how much?

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: baldhead on March 28, 2015, 08:33:01 am
the bypass is rated 1w at full load, and I only need it when there is no neutral in the switch's box

Sylvain
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: aseriesoftubes on May 15, 2016, 08:52:27 pm
Apologies for reviving an ancient thread.

I purchased an 25W 1.5kΩ 1% tolerance resistor (this one (http://www.newark.com/vishay-dale/rh0251k500fc02/wirewound-resistor-1-5kohm-25w/dp/01F9832?ost=01F9832&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories&iscrfnonsku=false)), and wired it in parallel with an LED downlight in one of my ceiling cans. It didn't do much to reduce buzzing, although it did seem to help with the flickering issues I've been experiencing. However, after a couple hours of operation, it got extremely hot; the heatsink on the resistor measured 300 degrees F (150 degrees C), according to the temperature probe on my multimeter.

Is anyone else experiencing these kinds of heat issues? I was extremely uncomfortable transforming a ceiling can into a miniature oven, so I took the resistor out.

Here's some info on my system:
Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Z-Waver on May 20, 2016, 10:15:23 am
25 watts is too high. It's going to get very hot. As the post previous to yours states, they use a 1 watt resistor and only when the dimmer has no Neutral.

The Cooper RF9540 uses a Neutral and does not require resistors. It is also made specifically to handle LED bulbs and should have no problem with a Cree bulb.

What's buzzing, the switch or the bulb? That switch/bulb combination should work without flickering or buzzing without any resistors. If the bulb is buzzing, I would suggest that you try a different bulb. I have had a couple of defective Cree bulbs in the past.

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: Hossam Sakr on April 03, 2017, 11:53:19 am
i was really amazed buy founding a solution for my problem
but i need to get sure of some points before trying to use two 10W 3.3k resistor to each channel connected to LED spots
my dimmer is 400W/channel (philips Dynalite DDLE802)
shall i use the same two 10W 3.3k resistors or should be changed as its 400W not 1000W?
can i connect these resistors between one of the spots terminals or legs in the circuit?
what about the heat results from dimming on these resistors?

Title: Re: Dummy Load for LED lights / eliminate flickering
Post by: JimmyV on February 07, 2018, 06:54:28 pm
There's an interesting dummy load solution here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmA22wMgZw

It may or may not work for your situation.