Author Topic: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage  (Read 842 times)

Offline bshaw

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Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« on: July 21, 2016, 02:12:16 pm »
Hi All,

Wondering if anyone has thoughts/advice on my situation with the relay I have installed to control my water heater.  Read all the forums on CA3750 and couldn't find any help.

I have the CA3750 220V 30A relay wired in my basement, and vera edge is not far away (~15ft).  Others have mentioned the signal issues based on the antenna placement within the CA3750, but my signal is fine and after pairing to vera I can reliably control with 100% success rate.

When I run into trouble is during a power outage.  The Z-wave board is powered by the 220V -- great no batteries, and when the power goes out, I expect nothing to work.
When the power comes back (could be just a brief outage), the relay is always off -- also fine, I can create a scene to detect this situation and flip the relay on.

But... what happens with my CA3750 is that after a brief power outage, it is no longer paired to my vera edge!  I need to go downstairs and go through the whole exclusion and inclusion cycle again.  Since this is a vacation home, I am not there very often to perform these steps, and apparently our power provider flickers like once a month.

I don't know a whole lot about the vera pairing process, but is this expected?  My battery devices and other AC devices "remember" their pairing to vera when they are disconnected from any power source.  Bug in the version of UI7 I am running?

Please help.  I'll have to remove this relay to ensure consistent power can be applied to the water heater.





Offline Z-Waver

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 09:15:08 am »
This is a failing CA3750, not a Vera issue. The CA3750 is forgetting it's programming, specifically its Z-Wave HomeID and node number.

The loss of pairing in the CA3750 is not supposed to occur. But it is known to occur with some older units. It is a similar problem that the old CA600 has as well. I suspect, though I am not sure, that it is due to failed capacitors.

There's nothing you can do to fix it, but replace the CA3750. They have a 10 year warranty, but it may not still be good. The thing is that these haven't been manufactured for years, so your "new" unit may also suffer the same problem. If yours is a recent enough purchase, perhaps the seller will exchange it.

Although I have not used it, you may prefer to use a currently-in-production Aeon Labs ZW078-A Heavy Duty Smart Energy Appliance Switch.

Offline integlikewhoa

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 10:02:54 am »
Altho I can't confirm or deny your CA3750 is failing or what part in it is failing, I can say I have two of these units for a few years now running two different Hot Water Heaters and after a power loss I don't have to repair to VERA. 

Offline bshaw

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2016, 01:48:50 pm »
Thanks for the replies.  I did some more testing, and when I turn power off at the breaker, the CA3750 remembers its pairing just fine.  (Left if off for a few minutes).  But, we had another storm last night and I'm guessing the power flickered/surged for just a moment because Vera cannot contact the relay any more.

I'll look at the Aeon Labs suggested above as a replacement.  It seems rather small in physical size?  I would have thought relays for controlling 40A would be larger.  At least based on the size of the box around the CA3750, its much larger in size than the Aeon Labs relay.

Offline andrewgarfield

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 04:12:48 pm »
Just wanted to chime in my with recent experience.  I actually had the same issue where a storm a few weeks ago flickered the lights and now my CA3750 that controls my pool pump is no longer able to communicate with Vera.

However, I have had "flickers" like this before, without this happening.  So, not sure what the true cause is.  Just wanted to let anyone else that reads this know of a similar experience.

Offline Z-Waver

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Good News - New Device
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 07:53:42 am »
GE/Jasco has recently released the GE 12726 40 Amp Z-Wave Smart Switch, which is an excellent replacement for the discontinued CA3750. The GE contactor has the familiar "standard" timer/contactor form factor and uses an external antenna with its Z-Wave Plus(Gen5) radio, so it should have much better signal characteristics than the CA3750 does.

The downside is that it is presently more expensive than the Aeon Labs ZW078-A Heavy Duty Smart Energy Appliance Switch

Offline bshaw

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 09:43:12 am »
That GE Switch looks very promising -- thanks for the link.  How do people generally find out about new Z-Wave products that come to market?  (Other than sharing via forums)  I'm just wondering what else is out there that I don't know about.

Update on my situation.  I bought my CA3750 about 1-year ago from Amazon (via Homeseer).  After contacting them, they are sending me a replacement unit and I will see if it can hold its pairing better during a storm/power outage.
Otherwise, will probably replace with this GE Smart Switch mentioned above.  It's almost twice the price, but the external antenna and energy monitoring are nice additional features for that extra money.

Offline andrewgarfield

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 10:34:10 am »
I ended up ordering the new GE switch a few days ago but haven't installed it yet.  The higher price tag was hard to swallow but when putting it up against the amount of my time it takes to keep the CA3750 working, it was a no brainer.

The CA3750 is a nice unit but it's very old.  I don't remember where I read it, so i'm not sure if it's true, but I thought I remembered reading that it is incapable of a lot of different "basic" Z-wave stuff.  Like it's incapable of pairing through intermediate nodes, and is even not very good at communicating through intermediate nodes even when working.  Plus the internal antenna is probably cause for a lot of issues as well.

I have a lot of hope for this new GE unit with it's larger antenna and Gen5 specifications.  If I don't have to worry about this thing losing its pairing anymore, and subsequently having to grab a 100 foot ethernet cable to get my vera pair with it again it'll be worth the money.  I do like the power monitoring feature as a plus as well.

I'll reuse the CA3750 for my water heater which has much better line of sight with my vera.

Offline Z-Waver

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 06:12:42 pm »
How do people generally find out about new Z-Wave products that come to market?  (Other than sharing via forums)

I don't know how people do it. For me it's any combination of forums, product announcements, shopping, Google searches... I've been focused on Z-Wave products for a few years now, so I've "heard" about many(possibly most) of the products. But the GE contactor, for example, was something I stumbled upon on Amazon.

This is the authoritative list of Z-Wave products. Whether they are available, in your area, or compatible with your controller is another matter.

Offline pjtvnet5

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 09:14:31 am »
I ended up ordering the new GE switch a few days ago but haven't installed it yet.  The higher price tag was hard to swallow but when putting it up against the amount of my time it takes to keep the CA3750 working, it was a no brainer.

The CA3750 is a nice unit but it's very old.  I don't remember where I read it, so i'm not sure if it's true, but I thought I remembered reading that it is incapable of a lot of different "basic" Z-wave stuff.  Like it's incapable of pairing through intermediate nodes, and is even not very good at communicating through intermediate nodes even when working.  Plus the internal antenna is probably cause for a lot of issues as well.

I have a lot of hope for this new GE unit with it's larger antenna and Gen5 specifications.  If I don't have to worry about this thing losing its pairing anymore, and subsequently having to grab a 100 foot ethernet cable to get my vera pair with it again it'll be worth the money.  I do like the power monitoring feature as a plus as well.

I'll reuse the CA3750 for my water heater which has much better line of sight with my vera.

Just wondering how well the GE Switch is working for you.  It worked very well for me for 2 months, now it will just stop communicating with the Vera controller every few days.  If you press the on/off button, it wakes up for a day or so, but then loses communication.  The switch is about 3-4 feet from the controller, so it is not a distance issue.

Jasco support was not much help.

Offline andrewgarfield

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 11:51:30 am »
Been using it for months now and it's been very solid. The only issue i've had was a "people" one rather than a technical one.  The pool guy kept setting the switch to ignore z-wave communication which basically turned it into a "dumb" switch.  I would have to go out and turn it back on.  After a few weeks he learned that he can manipulate the pump via the external button and have been problem free since then.

Mine is quite far away from the vera unit with several large external concrete walls between them.  I have many intermediate nodes, but not sure of the route that the communications are going.

As previously mentioned in this thread, this replaced the Intermetic CA3750 with which I basically had nothing but problems.

Offline foe

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Re: Water heater relay (CA3750) loses pairing on power outage
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 02:14:53 am »
A cheap way around is to install a 20 or 30 amp contact switch with 110v control and use ANY Z wave switch to open/close its coil.

My 2 cents !